Single Training Standard for Firefighter in NYS

[Dinosaur 844]

What do you think? Is it time for a change? Vote now.

[Newburgher 241]

Yes, without a doubt!

Edited July 10, 2013 by Newburgher

[ex-commish 490]

Long time coming

[v85 212]

Yes

Anyone with the title of firefighter should have like training.

I am fire police with my department and I will not identify myself as a firefighter because I have no training as such. I think the same should go for others who don't engage in firefighting activities.

[firemoose827 324]

Yes. As an assistant chief, if I call for mutual aid for tankers and manpower...I want that manpower to be ready, able and trained to fight fires. Usually you will get a mix of members; some interior, some exterior, even some who are brand new members that have new turnouts on (but cant use them) and are basically good for "gopher" duties only. And in some cases you get more explorers riding the rig then firefighters.

Same for accident scenes; I shouldnt have to ask if you are trained to extricate someone from a vehicle, if you dont have AVET then you shouldnt be on the rescue truck when it rolls to an MVA.

My bitch for years has been to adopt the same standards as EMT's in our state. They have to go through a certification process involving training (classroom and hands on), and two tests in order to receive your license. Then you have to re-cert every three years. THATS the way it should be for firefighters, but I feel a good re-cert term for us would be five years. Show up, demonstrate you still know the basic skills in the training facility, take a test and your re-certified. Fail...and you have to re-take the training. Lots of people hate the idea, yet they still bitch on these forums that training standards should be taken more seriously state wide for firefighters....I feel this idea is a good option; is it the ultimate cure for the problem? Never. But its a good option that should be considered and revised to suit our needs.

But I agree; same training for every firefighter, paid or volunteer, big city or small rural farm community with one engine and 6 members. Same across the board so every "firefighter" on scene can do every task required of them.

[LTFIREPRG 154]

Absolutely! As I have said in the past the fire does not care if you are receiving a pay check or volunteering your time, it will kill you just the same. The standards and training should be unilateral across the board for every firefighter and officer. You don’t see any difference in the training requirements for career vs. volunteer paramedics and EMT’s!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Its honestly pathetic. There's a national standard that already exists, but some places still want to live in the stone age and pretend its not necessary for them. If you don't want to EARN the title of Firefighter then I don't want you on my rig.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. It's about the community you're supposed to be serving and the level of service (and competency) they expect. The fact that they don't know the details is no excuse. They deserve it.

[FirNaTine 370]

While I agree whole heartedly about this topic I feel it's just as important to have some degree of high standards to be able to even join a Dept. whether it be Career or Volunteer. Do we really need to be working next to a highly trained criminal? It's time to raise the Bar and not turn the Fire Service into a handout Job. Better Sceening and an Interview process is just as important! JMO.

[firecapt32 282]

Great idea--aint going to happen as long as there are organizations that are still in the dark ages as far as firefighting is concerned.

Lowering standards or worse not having any borders on criminal intent. Having taught some firefighter one classes in the last few years I can tell you one thing--- class starts out with 20-25 in the class. Last session maybe 16-17. Very few are willing to take a National firefighters one test, because departments do not require taking one.

communities do not send in untrained police--they send them for 16 weeks of training. Yet theses communities use their AHJ to say the fire department is doing the best it can with what it has-- not reality. minimum of Firefighter one-- SET A STANDARD work toward the STANDARD. Put money in the budgets for training not one million dollar pieces of fire apparatus. Those that have the training should DEMAND more form their departments .

Standards should be set for becoming firefighters/ fire officers/fire chiefs -- plane and simple. While I am at it STANDARDS should be set for any one driving fire department vehicles.

How many departments are just not doing any thing? OSHA/ Physicals/Mask fit testing (cant tell you how many are send to FF1 with out a mask fit or physical but do have the sheet signed by the chief) Bail out systems/ haz mat requirements/ BBP standards. Turnout standards being ignored.

sorry for the rant but this is a great topic and can get a lot of interest-- just believes it falls on deaf ears sometimes.

Edited July 10, 2013 by firemoose827
removed duplicate posts (2)

[dwcfireman 656]

Every on posting is all in the YES vote (including myself)...I want to hear from a Nay-sayer as to why you would not want a NYS standard on becoming a firefighter. Why did you vote no?

p.s. I respect your opinions, but I'm just curious to see your side of the arguement.

[v85 212]

I would guess the arguments against would be either:

1. Exterior Scene Support Members who feel that they will be coerced into going interior (i.e. "We are getting rid of exteriors, either full firefighter or good luck and good riddance")

2. Members who didn't see the (this does NOT mean one single way of completing the training) and think that they will be sent away to a full-time academy which would be incompatable with their jobs.

3. Members who think they are in general too busy to train.

4. Certain veteran members "I've been fighting fires since your parents were toddlers, I don't need some fancy training class to tell me what to do"

5. Fools. "That stuff only happens in big cities, why should I train for something that might possibly happen once in 100 years"

[firebuff860 54]

What would be the standard?? Is it National FF1? A new NYS FF Standard? Require all FF's to be EMT certified? NYS has offered so many courses over the years many volunteers probably do not know what their certification is. If you go to 1 standard, would it not make sense to have an annual CPAT as well as physical to ensure the FF is still able to fulfill his duties? Who is going to monitor this, AHJ? If NYS does not change the way municipalities operate, nothing can be enforced. NYS will adopt new standards, and every Dept will say they comply (wink, wink). For now and for the forseeable future, it will be up to the individual Dept to ensure each FF they place on duty is capable of performing all duties competently and safely. How many Dept's today can say that their members meet that today? My guess would be not that many, and that includes both volunteer and fully paid career departments.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

NFPA 1001 is the industry standard. Period. That's the legal standard you're going to be held to in court when something happens.

Objective certification testing would eliminate the ability of departments to "fake it."

If NYS can pass a gun control law against the wishes of almost every elected Sheriff in the state, I don't see why they can't pass a law setting NFPA Firefighter 1 as the minimum standard for all Firefighters against the wishes of every elected Fire Chief.

[firecapt32 282]

It will probably take a slew of law suites to make any changes,, and believe me there will be law suites---failure to provide adequate fire protection!! a million dollar truck or two wont hold up in court as adequate protection.. neither will" we do the best we can with what we have" or the famous one "We are only volunteers--a career department will cost millions of dollars" Lawyers will have a field day with those.

the fire service is and looks to be always a reactionary organization--not a proactive organization.

just my 2 cents

[firemoose827 324]

NFPA 1001 is the industry standard. Period. That's the legal standard you're going to be held to in court when something happens.

Objective certification testing would eliminate the ability of departments to "fake it."

If NYS can pass a gun control law against the wishes of almost every elected Sheriff in the state, I don't see why they can't pass a law setting NFPA Firefighter 1 as the minimum standard for all Firefighters against the wishes of every elected Fire Chief.

This is the best, most direct and precise way to describe it. Just the way I feel. It shouldnt be that difficult to have certification tests and if you dont have it on file you dont fight fire. You just need honorable, trained and experienced leaders to enforce it. If you have a chief that got to the position by "skating" by with only essentials of firemanship that he took 30 years ago and no other training than yes, he wont support the new requirements because then he wont be approved.

THATS why cheifs and officers refuse to accept changes, improvements and new laws in the fire service (atleast the volunteer side anyway because 95% of volunteer departments either dont have or dont enforce job requirements for the position of officer, just any warm body can take the job). They refuse to support anything that will make them and their "lack of training" look bad. That and they will loose their authority...and the pretty white hats and blinky red lights and the cool radio to play with...

[firemoose827 324]

In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.

I just wanted to clarify my position here, I wrote this in the FAST topic and quickly saw how many of you could get confused and call me out on this issue, so allow me to clarify;

I believe there can be two forms of membership in the volunteer service; Firefighters, and "Support Personnel". The firefighters need that standard of training for the whole state, to be on the same page as other firefighters and I believe that we should have to get licensed like EMT's and Paramedics have to, so we have to re-certify every 5 years to keep up to date on old and new skills and demonstrate to an official person that we can still PERFORM those skills AND have the knowledge needed to stay alive, that we didnt forget it or that we actually PAYED ATTENTION during classes. Around here I see it too much; young guys go take every class, YET they are in the back row, no note books or pens, joking around with "buddies", not paying attention and there is NO TEST. At the end you go up and get your pretty piece of cardboard with you name on it and some fancy signatures from the fire administrator and fire coordinator (that means absolutely NOTHING without the "Passed Exam" in the upper corner) and go back to your station and start to brag about it...

I feel that by having to pass both a written exam and practical exam, supervised by state officials from the fire service, in order to receive a "Firefighter I" License (Like a NYS EMT Card but for Firefighter I, II, III, Fire Officer I, II,III, and Haz-Mat Tech I, II, III) it would force these younger guys to pay attention and actually learn, and by re-certifying every five years its not just a get the certificate and throw it out and forget it type thing anymore, you need to stay on top of things, read articles, attend other classes so you can pass the re-cert tests. Thats what the volunteer fire service needs.

As far as "Support Personnel", they can be like the old "Fire Patrol" units. They can support exterior ops like hose lays, drafting, ladder positioning, rehab areas, staging areas and then later assist with salvage operations and re-packing the hose and cleaning tools so the exhausted firefighters can take time to re-charge. Or like I mentioned in my quote, assist with shelters and other support functions like fund raisers and fire prevention activities.

[ffp20 14]

is there a FASNY supporter on these boards who want to chime in????

[grumpyff 1,159]

FASNY supporters are too old to use computers.

[John Meeker Jr 0]

What ever happened to helping your neighbor! Thats what Fire Department personell do. Now you tell me that I have to take FF1, FF2, Fire Attack, pump ops, AVET, EMT, Hose ops, Ladder Opps, Hazmat, and incident safety officer and more to be qualified to join and help my neighbors? Trainings great and I have taken most of it but chose not to become nationally ceritified. But I really joined to help my neighbors and know whats going on around me by being at the critical incidents. Yes there should be standards that departments should strive for but I do not think you can only have the label of firefighter. You will need to have fireground persons, interior firefighters, extrication EMS types, drivers and officers and office staff. So no I do not support a single standard that fire departments should adopt.

[gamewell45 258]

is there a FASNY supporter on these boards who want to chime in????

Would you be willing to stick your hand into a hornets nest??

[ffp20 14]

Sure why not? They would be the group who would oppose uniform standards.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

What ever happened to helping your neighbor! Thats what Fire Department personell do. Now you tell me that I have to take FF1, FF2, Fire Attack, pump ops, AVET, EMT, Hose ops, Ladder Opps, Hazmat, and incident safety officer and more to be qualified to join and help my neighbors? Trainings great and I have taken most of it but chose not to become nationally ceritified. But I really joined to help my neighbors and know whats going on around me by being at the critical incidents. Yes there should be standards that departments should strive for but I do not think you can only have the label of firefighter. You will need to have fireground persons, interior firefighters, extrication EMS types, drivers and officers and office staff. So no I do not support a single standard that fire departments should adopt.

If you want to help your neighbor without training I suggest you join the Elks Club or the Lions. The stakes are much lower there. "Firefighting is an ultra hazardous occupation" and the neighbors you want to help (as well as your Brother and Sister Firefighters) DESERVE Fire Protection in line with the NATIONAL industry standard.

Hell, even CERT has a minimum national training standard, yet most fire departments rag on CERT members as wannabe's. But they took the time to train to a standard. I suppose they shouldn't have to either, just because they want to help their neighbor?

[firecapt32 282]

wanna help your neighbor and have don't think you need training--- pick up their garbage bring it to the dump-- volunteer at the library-- join the elks. firefighting is a dangerous profession whether you do it for a salary or not.. ask the 19 that lost their live in a forest fire!!!

Train train train when you think you have had enough train more

again just my thoughts

[Bnechis 3,961]

What ever happened to helping your neighbor! Thats what Fire Department personell do. Now you tell me that I have to take FF1, FF2, Fire Attack, pump ops, AVET, EMT, Hose ops, Ladder Opps, Hazmat, and incident safety officer and more to be qualified to join and help my neighbors? Trainings great and I have taken most of it but chose not to become nationally ceritified. But I really joined to help my neighbors and know whats going on around me by being at the critical incidents. Yes there should be standards that departments should strive for but I do not think you can only have the label of firefighter. You will need to have fireground persons, interior firefighters, extrication EMS types, drivers and officers and office staff. So no I do not support a single standard that fire departments should adopt.

1) my neighbor needs help putting out the garbage and mowing thelawn andthere are many others just like them.

2) I agree with you about the "Label" of firefighter. I have a big problem with a dept claiming to the public it has 100 FIREFIGHTERS, when we start counting and find 20 have retired to Fl. but still make the annual dinner, another 10 are in "skilled nursing facilities" and 40 of them are exterior only ("Support Personnel") That means you only have 30 "Firefighters" and 25 of them work out of the area.

I do not mind if a VFD is honest to itself and the public. But Isee deptslike the one above claiming to the public that they are protecting them...Its great to help your neighbors, if you are actually helping them.

[FFnhusband 0]

Yes, definitely there should be a single standard for interior firefighters across the board. We should also remember though, that those personnel who are not capable of performing interior duties are still of great value to the fire service. I belong (currently on military leave) to a rural department in northern NY where our support firefighters perform a multitude of tasks on the fireground that relieve those performing interior duties of the added stress of having to set up rehab, manpower/refit, water supply ops, operating apparatus, and so forth. I am currently the training officer with a semi-suburban/rural department in Alabama, where there is not a current state minimum training requirement for volunteers. I have found this to be very challenging as you never know what level of knowledge and experience others may truly have. Luckily I have a very supportive chief here who was open to the implementation of a department minimum standard based on the NYS and NFPA FF1 courses. Within this department this has greatly helped our members, but without having a state minimum, you still never know what you may get from mutual aid.

[firemoose827 324]

What ever happened to helping your neighbor! Thats what Fire Department personell do. Now you tell me that I have to take FF1, FF2, Fire Attack, pump ops, AVET, EMT, Hose ops, Ladder Opps, Hazmat, and incident safety officer and more to be qualified to join and help my neighbors? Trainings great and I have taken most of it but chose not to become nationally ceritified. But I really joined to help my neighbors and know whats going on around me by being at the critical incidents. Yes there should be standards that departments should strive for but I do not think you can only have the label of firefighter. You will need to have fireground persons, interior firefighters, extrication EMS types, drivers and officers and office staff. So no I do not support a single standard that fire departments should adopt.

I was going to "reply" to your comment but I think Sage, firecapt32 and Bnechis did a fine job of explaining things better to you.

But I can ask you a few questions to paint a better picture for you; what if a cop grabbed a well intentioned bystander, who "just wanted to help his neighbors", gave him some body armor and an AR 15, and told them to enter a bank filled with hostages and save them? Do you think the outcome will be positive, or messy??

OK, now take a Paramedic at an MCI accident. This medic grabs that same John Q Public guy who realy wants to help and tells him to go start an IV on the two unconcious people in the one car and do a needle chest decompression on them as well...are we getting anywhere yet??

If you want to help your neighbor thats great, I salute you and encourage you, but you need to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING if you truly want to help someone. Training is essential to the fire service. It must be done, and it must be maintained and refreshed or you will end up killing someone.

Im sorry, but your attitude towards the fire service and how you feel you dont need training to be a firefighter is dangerous, and its how we have so many LODD's to think about.

Just one last thought to leave you with; your the John Q Public guy who realy wants to help, you jump on the shiny fire engine when the siren goes off, because you know, you want to help, right? When you arrive on scene you hear someone yelling for help, theres smoke coming from the structure but no fire, and you run up to the front door with your cape fluttering and your chest puffed out and you open the door..........do we still have viable victims to rescue at this point? Did we know what the signs of impending backdraft were before opening the door? Did we know where the fire was and have it properly vented and hoselines in place? But hey; you just want to help...

Get training, or like everyone else told you already join the red cross or the local church so you can help.

[AFS1970 504]

I have a big problem with a dept claiming to the public it has 100 FIREFIGHTERS, when we start counting and find 20 have retired to Fl. but still make the annual dinner, another 10 are in "skilled nursing facilities" and 40 of them are exterior only ("Support Personnel") That means you only have 30 "Firefighters" and 25 of them work out of the area.

Some departments need to make an internal rules change to allow this and it has been long overdue. In my old department there were actually more classes of non-firefighting membership than there were of firefighting membership, each with slightly different rights. I tried to combine them once when I was on the By-Laws committee and you should have seen the hornets come out of the nest.

I also remember finding all sorts of old paperwork showing us having a fairly large fire police unit, including their own officers, yet there was no membership classification for them. When I was in there we had only 1 fire police member left but I was able to get a class of membership for him in the by-laws. I believe they have some new members in that class now.

That being said, a neighboring department in the same city had no class of membership other than firefighter (well they did have veteran but you had to be a firefighter first). They had someone apply who did not want to be an interior firefighter but had other skills that would be useful, aparently in over 70 years this had never come up before. Some of their members came to us for wording for a by-law change to allow this.

I have long advocated creating a training program specific to exterior positions. Most of it could come from the FF1 & FF2 class. However some state agencies would need to make adjustments also. Think about the departments that have driver only members, yet many of the good driver/operator classes require FF1 (or the basic FF training) as a prerequisite. I think a single standard for each position would be a great thing.

[firecapt32 282]

lets take a look at what's out there now--aren't there standards out there already in place but just aren't being met by some fire departments?? Some departments aren't even trying to meet them.

1-physicals

2-maks fit testing

3-all sections of osha including BBP/lock out/tagout haz mat,

4-bailout systems

5-updated turnout equipment

6-scba updates and practices

7-annual training according to nfpa 1500

8-firefighter one or equivalent

That's just for firefighters that are "interior"

[Dinosaur 844]

lets take a look at what's out there now--aren't there standards out there already in place but just aren't being met by some fire departments?? Some departments aren't even trying to meet them.

1-physicals

2-maks fit testing

3-all sections of osha including BBP/lock out/tagout haz mat,

4-bailout systems

5-updated turnout equipment

6-scba updates and practices

7-annual training according to nfpa 1500

8-firefighter one or equivalent

That's just for firefighters that are "interior"

You're right but a single state standard to be called a "firefighter" would be like EMT training. You can take it anywhere in the state and know what you've got. So when a kid goes to college in Buffalo from Long Island, his qualifications are known and based on a single curriculum.

Standards for departmental operations are a completely different topic. Let's start that thread and see how fast it dies.

[50-65 205]

In my old department there were actually more classes of non-firefighting membership than there were of firefighting membership, each with slightly different rights. I tried to combine them once when I was on the By-Laws committee and you should have seen the hornets come out of the nest.

That's ok. Our by-laws still list essentials as the base class. And you don't need to make single call to be a member. As long as you make the required number of drills, company meetings, and fund raisers, you are a member (firefighter) in good standing. And guess which one of those three is the least required?

I guess when the by-laws were written 40+ years ago, it was just assumed that you would be comming to fire calls.