FAS Team Thought

[Dinosaur 844]

A. If all your RIT/FAST is doing is "sitting outside" leaning on pike poles you're missing out on a lot of stuff that needs doing.

B. Wouldn't the logical solution to the problem be to train everyone in the basics of RIT/FAST??? If I was in the building and needed help ASAP I'd take the crew of guys basically trained in RIT who are on the front lawn over the RIT experts still en route from three towns away.

The logical solution is to train all firefighters the same, including RIT/FAST. The logical solution is to have only one training standard for all firefighters. "But we're volunteers and that's too much time" or "I have a job and a family, I don't have time for all that training" or "you have to appreciate us. we do this for free".

Only we can stop this stupid BS and create a mandate for training. A single standard everywhere including RIT/FAST.

We are only endangering ourselves with these stupid petty arguments. We are either firefighters or we are not! All the t-shirts or license plates, or flashing lights in the world aren't going to save someone's life if it goes bad. And it goes bad in a heartbeat! We can't afford to treat RIT/FAST as a unique specialty and call for teams from other counties when we have a fire. Every firefighter should be interior. There shouldn't be "exterior" or "support" guys called FF anymore. Do the whole job, not the parts you like or the parts that are convenient!

Stand up and be a firefighter already!

[Dinosaur 844]

Everyone is required to take "Firefighter Safety and Survival" in my area to be an interior. When they go through the FF I course they get a look at our FAST first hand and see what they do to rescue someone. There is also regular FAST courses as well. I agree about that, everyone should have the training so you are all on the same page. Routine trainings on Mayday calls and what to do when one is called should also be done. I ask people all the time during drills what would happen if...and 7 times out of ten they dont mention calling a Mayday, they just try to fix the problem. We are working on that issue through training with the FAST at our new training facility.

How about adding FF Safety and Survival to FF 1 and make everyone interior!

Train for the worst not just what it is "fun".

[Bnechis 3,961]

The logical solution is to train all firefighters the same, including RIT/FAST. The logical solution is to have only one training standard for all firefighters. "But we're volunteers and that's too much time" or "I have a job and a family, I don't have time for all that training" or "you have to appreciate us. we do this for free".

Only we can stop this stupid BS and create a mandate for training. A single standard everywhere including RIT/FAST.

We are only endangering ourselves with these stupid petty arguments. We are either firefighters or we are not! All the t-shirts or license plates, or flashing lights in the world aren't going to save someone's life if it goes bad. And it goes bad in a heartbeat! We can't afford to treat RIT/FAST as a unique specialty and call for teams from other counties when we have a fire. Every firefighter should be interior. There shouldn't be "exterior" or "support" guys called FF anymore. Do the whole job, not the parts you like or the parts that are convenient!

Stand up and be a firefighter already!

I want to give this a couple dozen likes!!!

This is the way it is in many states but not in NY

[Remember585 815]

I like the discussion here. But I have yet to really hear from any department (other than one) that is really interested in putting all of our heads together to work towards the same thing.

Firefighter safety, survival and rescue training is near and dear to me. I firmly believe the additional 24 hours of FAST training should be tacked on to the Firefighter I & Survival classes the WCFTC puts out. I also can't comprehend why survival training and rescue of our own is not minimum training for all of us. To make it a separate program and not make it required training STATEWIDE irritates the living hell out of me.

What further irks me is that guys walk out of the training center, carrying their Firefighter I certificates (most not take Survival, thanks WCDES) and never again take a course to better themselves in the interest of all those that they will be working with.

Survival and Firefighter Rescue Training needs to be a requirement - period, end of story.

/rant

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I've been toying with the idea of leading and reactivating the FAST in my department and finally seem to have enough support to make some serious steps toward making this happen. I am looking for things to add/remove from our outdated FAST SOG's. Would anyone be willing to email me a copy of their departments FAST SOG's? PM me and I will give you my email address.

[IFCO3080 26]

I like the discussion here. But I have yet to really hear from any department (other than one) that is really interested in putting all of our heads together to work towards the same thing.

Firefighter safety, survival and rescue training is near and dear to me. I firmly believe the additional 24 hours of FAST training should be tacked on to the Firefighter I & Survival classes the WCFTC puts out. I also can't comprehend why survival training and rescue of our own is not minimum training for all of us. To make it a separate program and not make it required training STATEWIDE irritates the living hell out of me.

What further irks me is that guys walk out of the training center, carrying their Firefighter I certificates (most not take Survival, thanks WCDES) and never again take a course to better themselves in the interest of all those that they will be working with.

Survival and Firefighter Rescue Training needs to be a requirement - period, end of story.

/rant

I have taken both survival and fast class twice, not only because i enjoy taking class but because i have learned something different each time on one of the most important topics of firefighting. If you have the time two take these classes twice do it, and if you don't have time then make time!!! because it will benefit you as a firefighter but your brothers and sisters that you could potentially safe from a life threatening situation.

Remember585- i think that sitting guys down from fast teams and brainstorming or talking about different tactics that each team does would be a great idea. it be a benefit to other departments to learn what they do and try to learn new tactics and bounce ideas off one another. Being from kisco our fast team has been busy in the past with a lot of experienced guys but id really like to sit down with other teams to see what other fast teams do for years of service and age requirements to ride and be part of a fast team. The age of the guys that us younger guys lean on are starting to get up there and there response is starting to decline to these types of calls and with us getting a bunch of new young guys in the company id really like to see what other teams requirements are to get on these teams if they have them at all along with comparing it to our requirement that we have in place. Im sure if a get together was organized you would have a good amount of participants that show up to put there two cents in.

[firemoose827 324]

How about adding FF Safety and Survival to FF 1 and make everyone interior!

Train for the worst not just what it is "fun".

Not sure what you are implying here but we do train for the worst. We, just like everyone, have our members who only want the glory and front page pictures, but there are a lot of us that take training when offered and do it so we can help, not to get attention.

I agree with you though, training should be taken more seriously and not just when its "fun".

[EMT-7035 4]

The logical solution is to train all firefighters the same, including RIT/FAST. The logical solution is to have only one training standard for all firefighters. "But we're volunteers and that's too much time" or "I have a job and a family, I don't have time for all that training" or "you have to appreciate us. we do this for free".

Only we can stop this stupid BS and create a mandate for training. A single standard everywhere including RIT/FAST.

We are only endangering ourselves with these stupid petty arguments. We are either firefighters or we are not! All the t-shirts or license plates, or flashing lights in the world aren't going to save someone's life if it goes bad. And it goes bad in a heartbeat! We can't afford to treat RIT/FAST as a unique specialty and call for teams from other counties when we have a fire. Every firefighter should be interior. There shouldn't be "exterior" or "support" guys called FF anymore. Do the whole job, not the parts you like or the parts that are convenient!

Stand up and be a firefighter already!

While I do agree that every interior firefighter should be trained at least in the basics of FAST/RIT, and that everyone received some of this training in FF1 when we did victim rescues, I do not think that everyone needs to be interior to be considered a firefighter. There is definitely a place for those who do not want to, or cannot be interior firefighters for whatever reason, whether it's driving, setting up lines or putting up escape ladders to help those inside.

[ex-commish 490]

To start make FAST part of FF1 and go from there

[Dinosaur 844]

While I do agree that every interior firefighter should be trained at least in the basics of FAST/RIT, and that everyone received some of this training in FF1 when we did victim rescues, I do not think that everyone needs to be interior to be considered a firefighter. There is definitely a place for those who do not want to, or cannot be interior firefighters for whatever reason, whether it's driving, setting up lines or putting up escape ladders to help those inside.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. What happens when your "drivers" or "exterior guys' who "don't want to or cannot be interior firefighters" are outside a building and one of the "interior" firefighters calls a mayday? My theory is that one of three things will happen:

1. They will attempt a rescue without the proper training, equipment, or experience and become victims themselves, or

2. They will stand-by while additional "firefighters" respond to perform the rescue and precious time is lost, or

3. The cops will attempt the rescue and that thread has already run its course. (If you can't tell, this is sarcasm and you should only respond to points 1 or 2).

As long as there is no clear standard for firefighter, we are going to have these arguments and the rift between trained (career or volunteer) and untrained (only volunteer because NYS law requires career FF to be fully-qualified interior trained) is going to exist.

Just out of curiosity, does a driver or an "exterior only 'firefighter'" get the same LOSAP benefits as the guy who straps on a pack and crawls down that smoke filled hallway?

[v85 212]

Yes, exterior "firefighters" get the same LOSAP as interior firefighters.

Now, there are certain cases where I am not opposed to that. For example, interior firefighters who were injured LOD and can now only perform exterior functions, fire police (because they have a hazardous job as well), and similar type positions.

I do not think that exterior only "social members" (i.e. the ones you never see at a fire scene but are always signing in at the station, should get the points)

[Dinosaur 844]

Yes, exterior "firefighters" get the same LOSAP as interior firefighters.

Now, there are certain cases where I am not opposed to that. For example, interior firefighters who were injured LOD and can now only perform exterior functions, fire police (because they have a hazardous job as well), and similar type positions.

I do not think that exterior only "social members" (i.e. the ones you never see at a fire scene but are always signing in at the station, should get the points)

I agree with you but I think we can both think of people who haven't been injured, aren't fire police and haven't done a damn bit of firefighting that are showing up and checking the box for their points.

[v85 212]

Yes, there are definitely a few of those. I've known of people who were on the other side of the county sign in for calls, because they were "available" to respond for second calls.

[wraftery 1,275]

Food for thought:

Someplace in this thread, it was mentioned that people were on-scene but not interior qualified. The brand new FF 1's are not yet qualified to go inside but should be watching the operation because they have a lot to learn.

However, the older guys, or the "no longer able" guys who are on scene are a gold mine.

Why not teach them ICS and assign them to things like accountability, resource unit leader, rehab unit leader, logistics, staging, or mentor for the new FF1's that I mentioned above? These guys could also be assigned to insure that your required FAST is assembled and in position throughout the incident.

Use what you have to your advantage. It's a lot better than explaining over and over again why "you can't do it."

[SageVigiles 1,194]

However, the older guys, or the "no longer able" guys who are on scene are a gold mine.

Why not teach them ICS and assign them to things like accountability, resource unit leader, rehab unit leader, logistics, staging, or mentor for the new FF1's that I mentioned above? These guys could also be assigned to insure that your required FAST is assembled and in position throughout the incident.

Use what you have to your advantage. It's a lot better than explaining over and over again why "you can't do it."

Monroe, CT has a "Chief's Aide" position in their volunteer department for such a purpose. I believe the individual that holds the position is a retired Assistant Chief from Fairfield or Westport FD, if I'm not mistaken. Personally I think its a great way to have someone knowledgeable taking care of some of the important management positions (Accountability, Safety, etc) without taking away all your normal manpower and bringing some valuable experience to a department that doesn't catch a whole lot of fire work.

[firemoose827 324]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. What happens when your "drivers" or "exterior guys' who "don't want to or cannot be interior firefighters" are outside a building and one of the "interior" firefighters calls a mayday? My theory is that one of three things will happen:

1. They will attempt a rescue without the proper training, equipment, or experience and become victims themselves, or

2. They will stand-by while additional "firefighters" respond to perform the rescue and precious time is lost, or

3. The cops will attempt the rescue and that thread has already run its course. (If you can't tell, this is sarcasm and you should only respond to points 1 or 2).

As long as there is no clear standard for firefighter, we are going to have these arguments and the rift between trained (career or volunteer) and untrained (only volunteer because NYS law requires career FF to be fully-qualified interior trained) is going to exist.

Just out of curiosity, does a driver or an "exterior only 'firefighter'" get the same LOSAP benefits as the guy who straps on a pack and crawls down that smoke filled hallway?

1) To answer your first part simply; its called leadership. If your IC allows these drivers and "exterior" people to lead a rescue there are more issues in your department then you know. IC is set up for a reason, make them do their jobs better and these exterior ops guys wont be charging in the to "rescue".

Before I continue, I agree with you 100% about the training standards needing to be the same across the state, if your title says "Firefighter" then you should have all the necessary training, and the right amount and type of training, to back that up.

In my area it is common to see "exterior support" members (notice I didnt call them firefighters) that take training called "Scene Support Operations". These members are valuable to us as well. They assist the pump operator set up portable ponds, set up drafting operations, stretch and move around hose lines, chase kinks in hose lines, set up ladders on all sides of the building for emergency egress purposes, set up staging areas for tools, set up rehab areas for outcoming firefighters to get water and fresh bottles...it goes on and on. If you have to use interior firefighters to do all of these tasks...whos fighting the fire? Around here due to lack of help it would be nobody, cause they would all be doing these tasks first, THEN packing up and going in. We see them as valuable resources that can still be used to help their communities. During the storms (Irene and Sandy) these exterior support members would head up the shelter relief efforts alongside our ladies aux. units, doing the cooking for shelter workers, setting up the piles and piles of donations that were coming in and sorting them and distributing them (Our station ended up being a shelter for months due to the devastation in my area) and delivering much needed supplies to the hardest hit areas in my county. Some of these members put in hundreds of hours, hundreds of miles on their personal 4WD vehicles (to reach flood victims with food and clothing and cleaning supplies) so that those of us who are firefighters could be available to respond to actual emergency calls and not be tied up with shelter ops. They are usefull to some volunteer agencies, what needs to happen is the ability to think outside the box and realize that some communities are different then others and have different needs. Like the difference between westchester county and my county.

As far as "Firefighters", hands down 100% without-a-doubt agree that we NEED the same training across the board. I would have loved to have taken the career academy when I first started out 24 years ago, but I made due. I took every and all training classes that came to my county, and even traveled to the fire academy in Montaur Falls a dozen times for good training. There are several courses I have taken 2-3 times already, and 1 or 2 that I have taken 4 times or more to refresh. I continue to train as well and will not stop, even though I am assistant chief. Just because I wear a white hat now doesnt mean I wont be needed to stretch and initial attack line, or do the primary search, or vent for the attack team. I will still be ready, and continue to train until I am old a frail, and will have to be forced to stop.

[EMT-7035 4]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. What happens when your "drivers" or "exterior guys' who "don't want to or cannot be interior firefighters" are outside a building and one of the "interior" firefighters calls a mayday? My theory is that one of three things will happen:

1. They will attempt a rescue without the proper training, equipment, or experience and become victims themselves, or

2. They will stand-by while additional "firefighters" respond to perform the rescue and precious time is lost, or

3. The cops will attempt the rescue and that thread has already run its course. (If you can't tell, this is sarcasm and you should only respond to points 1 or 2).

As long as there is no clear standard for firefighter, we are going to have these arguments and the rift between trained (career or volunteer) and untrained (only volunteer because NYS law requires career FF to be fully-qualified interior trained) is going to exist.

Just out of curiosity, does a driver or an "exterior only 'firefighter'" get the same LOSAP benefits as the guy who straps on a pack and crawls down that smoke filled hallway?

I do agree with some of what you said, and I don't think I worded my post appropriately. However, while I do agree that everyone that is an interior firefighter should be trained to a standard (I know to what standard is being discussed on another thread), we don't want to "scare away" those who cannot or do not want to be interior qualified firefighters. In my department, the interior qualified firefighters are given priority on the trucks, but if you have 2 interior guys and 2 exterior, is that not better than having just the two interior, one of whom has to be the driver?

If there needs to be another name for such support personnel (scene support, exterior firefighter are the levels we have), that's fine, but I don't think we can expect every volunteer to be interior qualified. Also, like someone mentioned, what about those who are still learning? I'm still new myself, and watching scenes can teach me more about the job than sitting in a classroom. Would there be a requirement, like 1 year to become interior?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

A few points, I'm still a VERY new Instructor but they stand true:

1. Firefighter training should be a mix of classroom (cognitive) training and practical (psychomotor) skills, culminating in certification exams that require mastery in both.

2. Naturally you will pick some things up by watching scenes, but you won't understand the science behind WHY people are performing that action, which limits your ability to think critically when it comes to choosing tactics, etc. If you have so many extra interior members that can explain that stuff as it happens to the exterior guys during a structure fire, then guess what, you have the manpower for a FAST.

3. Whose to say the activities you're watching are good practices? Plenty of us have some bad habits (myself included) that you SHOULDN'T be learning.

Finally I'll pass along something my FF2 instructor told us about learning by watching instead or participating. "I've watched Eddie Van Halen play 'Eruption' a couple of times, doesn't mean I can play guitar."