Booster Reels Aren't Evil

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Booster lines aren't evil. Chiefs that use them however....

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Or to paraphrase the NRA: booster lines don't kill people, people who use booster lines kill people!

Time to move on people...this issue was put to bed 20 years ago!

[Bnechis 3,961]

That said....my department bought 2 new Engines in 2010 and 2 in 2011. NONE came with a booster reels. First time in our history that the Engines did not come with them. During the planning and layout for the Engines the argument came up. The older guys said most of the reasons people came up with having them as some did in this thread. But at the end of the day we realized that bumper mounted 1 3/4 trash lines can accomplish all the things that booster hose can and better. Plus the mistake of ever using the "red" line for anything more then washing off tools could never be made. (think it wont happen, your not living in the real world)

Yeah it may be easier to push a button then "pack" hose, but that's what the "new" guys are for heheheh.

The last engines we bought with boosters was in 1988 (when they were retired the motors had all been burnedout, the intake valves leaked and the floor under them was rotting.

We switched to a front mounted trash line and up till 2010 thats what all engines used. When we were replacing Engine 21 all of the crews said we do not use the trashline. We stretch what ever is needed from the rear bed and hook it up. Since that is what we will do at all fires we get better and better at it and in effect it is training.

We did add I-zone hooks, so if you need to get off a scene quick (like from a highway) or the hose is dirty and you do not want to pack it, it can be quickly looped up and taken care of back at the fire house.

Now that engine is busier than most of the the commenters (who favor boosters for the few calls) combined.

[wraftery 1,275]

I find that the booster reel argument is pushed mainly by the older generation. The same guys who still think pull up boots are just as effective as bunker gear. (Disclaimer: I'm an old guy, and have deviant thoughts like this from time to time, but I'm also a realist in embracing the future of the fire service and supporting the new younger line officers as they come up the line.)

That said....my department bought 2 new Engines in 2010 and 2 in 2011. NONE came with a booster reels. First time in our history that the Engines did not come with them. During the planning and layout for the Engines the argument came up. The older guys said most of the reasons people came up with having them as some did in this thread. But at the end of the day we realized that bumper mounted 1 3/4 trash lines can accomplish all the things that booster hose can and better. Plus the mistake of ever using the "red" line for anything more then washing off tools could never be made. (think it wont happen, your not living in the real world)

Yeah it may be easier to push a button then "pack" hose, but that's what the "new" guys are for heheheh.

An uncalled-for slap at the old guys. We Old Guys yanked out the reels maybe 30 years ago because they were useless in our eyes. The empty space that was created then housed a generator. Now look at who started this thread: a young proponent of booster lines.

[Atv300 69]

I can see good uses for a booster reel on a rig but as many have posted the good points are matched and surpassed by a trash line or even the first fifty feet of an attack line. The boosters pit falls out way the small amount of negative of using a regular inch and three quarter for one sole reason the human factor you cannot guarantee everyone will not take the easy way out at the wrong time.

The small propane tank, I should have been more clear. Granted you should not use it on a continue operation, a larger line should be put into place for continual operations like you described. For an intial attack to get some sort of dispiation going, it can be done but a larger line should be set in place definately. Its a stop gap measure for a short time.

Sorry for using your post but this is the main reason why boosters are a bad idea they can create bad habits. I am not going into all the details unless someone needs them think of this propane expands 270 times from a liquid to a gas so it really dose not take much to create a large problem even a twenty pound cylinder can kill a lot of people in short order most twenty pound tanks have around 4 gallons of liquid do the math it becomes a large issue in a hurry. It wasn't to long ago just over the state line from my area where a building was destroyed by a leaking forklift tank and most of them are only ten more pounds (1-2gal liquid) then a regular BBQ grill. http://www.newmilfordspectrum.com/news/article/Propane-explosion-razes-Gaylordsville-439432.php

Everyone just needs to think and be safe no matter what the department has or there polices are. We are all here for the same dam thing get home safe.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

An uncalled-for slap at the old guys. We Old Guys yanked out the reels maybe 30 years ago because they were useless in our eyes. The empty space that was created then housed a generator. Now look at who started this thread: a young proponent of booster lines.

You mean you didn't buy a separate "rescue/flood light" truck for the generators? Just kidding..... (although there is a lot of truth to that statement for many departments.)

Sorry you took it this way, it certainly was not meant to be taken like that, although at least in many departments I know of, the older senior guys tend to hang on to past ways of doing things sometimes to a fault. Im just calling it like I see it from my experience, thats all. As I said above I consider myself a semi old guy at the least, joining my dept in 1984, and having been an explorer since 81.

Just look at FDNY at the moment as they are trying to change over EVERY helmet in the dept to the plastic New Yorker style. There are a few guys out there who are never going to give up the leather helmet im sure.

[nfd2004 750]

An uncalled-for slap at the old guys. We Old Guys yanked out the reels maybe 30 years ago because they were useless in our eyes. The empty space that was created then housed a generator. Now look at who started this thread: a young proponent of booster lines.

I agree. A slap in the face to the guys who fought probadly the most fires in the history of this country. A generation of firefighters who in the 1970s and 1980s did wear 3/4 roll down rubber boots. There were no RIT or FAST Cos., No rehab, no air conditioned rigs, no incident command, no smoke detectors. Just a tough group of firefighters that did what they had to do. Sometimes referred to as "The Greatest Generation of Firefighters". There were times when these firefighters in some of these cities fought three or four building fires a night shift. There were times when that booster line was pulled and a bedroom fire was put out before the arrival of additional companies. And it wasn't even considered a working fire.

"Wrafdtery", I appreciate you defending our cause. We had no portable radios and three quater roll down boots and turn out coats. It was a time when the cities from the smallest to the largest were burning on a regular basis. And now we are considered to be useless in the eyes of a majority. I don't think there will ever be a time like that again.

I am certainly not trying to put the firefighters of today down. Just don't knock down those that served before you. It was a very tough job. If there were improvements to the job of firefighting today, it was probadly because of the experience gained by those firefighters who served during those very busy years.

Next time you fight a fire, if a Rac Unit shows up to give you cool water on a hot day, or you're wearing bunker gear that protects you from the high heat in a building fire, or you are carrying your own personnel radio to call for help, or you get relief at a fire, let me tell you the reason why. It's because of the firefighters that you consider "OLD GUYS" who used booster lines in some building fires. Yes my froiend it was because guys like "Wafdtery" and others in that Greatest Generation of Firefighters" that worked hard not only at alot more fires, but also worked hard so that you would have it just a little better today.

And to the members of any fire dept during the 1970s and 1980s, Thank you for what you've done for the people you protected and for the benefits you got todays firefighter. You really are a very special group of firefighters. hope you are all in good health and enjoying your hard earned retirement.

Willy "D"

Retired Firefighter IAFF 893 (Norwich, Ct)

[spin_the_wheel 460]

An uncalled-for slap at the old guys. We Old Guys yanked out the reels maybe 30 years ago because they were useless in our eyes. The empty space that was created then housed a generator. Now look at who started this thread: a young proponent of booster lines.

I agree. A slap in the face to the guys who fought probadly the most fires in the history of this country. A generation of firefighters who in the 1970s and 1980s did wear 3/4 roll down rubber boots. There were no RIT or FAST Cos., No rehab, no air conditioned rigs, no incident command, no smoke detectors. Just a tough group of firefighters that did what they had to do. Sometimes referred to as "The Greatest Generation of Firefighters". There were times when these firefighters in some of these cities fought three or four building fires a night shift. There were times when that booster line was pulled and a bedroom fire was put out before the arrival of additional companies. And it wasn't even considered a working fire.

"Wrafdtery", I appreciate you defending our cause. We had no portable radios and three quater roll down boots and turn out coats. It was a time when the cities from the smallest to the largest were burning on a regular basis. And now we are considered to be useless in the eyes of a majority. I don't think there will ever be a time like that again.

I am certainly not trying to put the firefighters of today down. Just don't knock down those that served before you. It was a very tough job. If there were improvements to the job of firefighting today, it was probadly because of the experience gained by those firefighters who served during those very busy years.

Next time you fight a fire, if a Rac Unit shows up to give you cool water on a hot day, or you're wearing bunker gear that protects you from the high heat in a building fire, or you are carrying your own personnel radio to call for help, or you get relief at a fire, let me tell you the reason why. It's because of the firefighters that you consider "OLD GUYS" who used booster lines in some building fires. Yes my froiend it was because guys like "Wafdtery" and others in that Greatest Generation of Firefighters" that worked hard not only at alot more fires, but also worked hard so that you would have it just a little better today.

And to the members of any fire dept during the 1970s and 1980s, Thank you for what you've done for the people you protected and for the benefits you got todays firefighter. You really are a very special group of firefighters. hope you are all in good health and enjoying your hard earned retirement.

Willy "D"

Retired Firefighter IAFF 893 (Norwich, Ct)

Wow I didn't think that statement was going to rile up so many. Willy D, sorry you took it this way as well. I always felt I was lucky to have been active in my dept when I was. I caught the tail end of just about everything you mention above, and did everything you mention as well. But maybe my opinions are based on volunteer depts. where many of the guys who fought fires in the 60's and 70's are still in their departments and have a strong voice, for better or worse. Sometimes these voices hold back some ,progress. Not everywhere, but some places. Any way this my last comment on this subject. I apologize to any older firefighter who put their time in with open cabs, wooden ladders, wheat lights, rubber coats and bangor ladders. Be safe all.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Old guy I'll show you a old guy , somebody pass me a " tab" !

[wraftery 1,275]

Wow I didn't think that statement was going to rile up so many. Willy D, sorry you took it this way as well. I always felt I was lucky to have been active in my dept when I was. I caught the tail end of just about everything you mention above, and did everything you mention as well. But maybe my opinions are based on volunteer depts. where many of the guys who fought fires in the 60's and 70's are still in their departments and have a strong voice, for better or worse. Sometimes these voices hold back some ,progress. Not everywhere, but some places. Any way this my last comment on this subject. I apologize to any older firefighter who put their time in with open cabs, wooden ladders, wheat lights, rubber coats and bangor ladders. Be safe all.

I'm not riled up. My point is that you just can't put people in pigeonholes (old-young...short/tall). And thanks, Willy D. for saving me a lot of time. I was going to write almost the same post as you did but now I don't have to.

Why do we "smarter" old guys hate booster lines? Simple: they are heavy and useless. Some day a fuse will blow and when you push that hose reel button nothing will happen. Let me know how you fared with your 150' of booster line.

Bangor ladders are a different story. The reason they are gone is because it takes six men and an officer to raise one. How many guys are rolling out the door on your truck company.

And us with the rubber coats and roll down boots! Guess why you are now fully encapsulated in your PPV? The smarter old guys said there must be a better way to protect ourselves and keep the brothers from dying. So now you are fully encapsulated and protected. Have Firefighter deaths dropped off over the years?

Looks to me like today's Firefighters might want to take a look at the improvements we old guys gave you and think about some improvements that might help your and future generations. How about starting with "Now that I am fully encapsulated and cant feel my environment, how do I know when I went too far?"

And for spin-the-wheel, I am sorry, Mike. This is not intended to be personal in any way. You just happened to be in the way when my rant started.

It's an unwritten rule that every Fire Officer is required to throw a conniption fit twice a year, no more, no less. Think about that one. Picture the Officers you know who either throw too many fits or not enough, and rate them as an officer. Let me know what you came up with.

[nfd2004 750]

Wow I didn't think that statement was going to rile up so many. Willy D, sorry you took it this way as well. I always felt I was lucky to have been active in my dept when I was. I caught the tail end of just about everything you mention above, and did everything you mention as well. But maybe my opinions are based on volunteer depts. where many of the guys who fought fires in the 60's and 70's are still in their departments and have a strong voice, for better or worse. Sometimes these voices hold back some ,progress. Not everywhere, but some places. Any way this my last comment on this subject. I apologize to any older firefighter who put their time in with open cabs, wooden ladders, wheat lights, rubber coats and bangor ladders. Be safe all.

Thanks "Spin....", I appreciate that.

There is one thing that I did forget to mention about somec of those 70s and 80s guys. Sometimes on those hot days it wasn't water that we drank after a good job. And on those cold winter nights, it wasn't a hot coffee that we drank. All I could say is that it would sometimes put a little smile on our faces. But that went the way of the booster line and for good reason.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why do we "smarter" old guys hate booster lines? Simple: they are heavy and useless. Some day a fuse will blow and when you push that hose reel button nothing will happen. Let me know how you fared with your 150' of booster line.

.

Thanks for the reminder. I had forgotten how much "fun" it was to crank the hose back on the reel.

[robert benz 344]

ok how about a different spin on things, by using folded hose, at small incidents, the officer can now turn it into a training drill. Let a newer member pump, see if his "numbers " are right for the lengths, nozzle etc. Let a new member use the line, get the feel for the right pressure or lack there of. lets see if the hose gets packed right, or the can gets refilled without being asked to remember to do so. I saw a few responses about easier and faster. When did we become so busy lately?

[IzzyEng4 427]

Old guy I'll show you a old guy , somebody pass me a " tab" !

I'm not that old, but I rather enjoy a Mr. Pibb! :-)

[SageVigiles 1,194]

ok how about a different spin on things, by using folded hose, at small incidents, the officer can now turn it into a training drill. Let a newer member pump, see if his "numbers " are right for the lengths, nozzle etc. Let a new member use the line, get the feel for the right pressure or lack there of. lets see if the hose gets packed right, or the can gets refilled without being asked to remember to do so. I saw a few responses about easier and faster. When did we become so busy lately?

Unfortunately I am not allowed to like this post twice...

[antiquefirelt 994]

Unfortunately I am not allowed to like this post twice...

I hooked you up.

[Remember585 815]

ok how about a different spin on things, by using folded hose, at small incidents, the officer can now turn it into a training drill. Let a newer member pump, see if his "numbers " are right for the lengths, nozzle etc. Let a new member use the line, get the feel for the right pressure or lack there of. lets see if the hose gets packed right, or the can gets refilled without being asked to remember to do so. I saw a few responses about easier and faster. When did we become so busy lately?

I think the most commonly used thing on our rigs is the pen for the reports...

[FireMedic049 597]

• "Final extinguishment of a smoldering engine compartment fire."

So you pack up the 1 3/4" line that you used to get to that point and then pull the booster to finish the job?

No, the fire was out when we pulled up, but there was some stuff that was still smoldering. We didn't need a large volume of water for that. The booster reel was quicker to deploy, use and repack than the 1 3/4" trash line that we would've pulled if the car still had active fire.

• "Hitting some hot spots found during the investigation phase."

Same as above

Not exactly. In one specific situation, the attack lines had been broken down and we were preparing to leave the scene. The fire marshall found a spot that was smoldering some as he was digging thru burnt up contents. Pulling the booster reel was faster and easier than re-deploying the rolled up dirty lines or pulling a clean line.

• "As a protection line for the engine for a short period of time while pumping a fire."

If you need to protect your $500,000+ engine because you parked it too close, you need a real line

Depending on how big the fire is and how close you parked to it.

• "We've used it in several situations where we previously would've used a can. A lot easier to put a little water back in the tank back at the station than servicing the can."

Saves a whole minute

Saves a lot more time than that, at least the way we have to do it.

• "We get called upon to "wash down" some public areas at times. Using regular handlines, we'd often have to refill at least once to complete the job. Just the other week my engine washed down the stage area of an outdoor "bandshell" style venue with less than 200 gallons of water."

How is it that you use an extra 300 gallons with the regular line? If you put out more water you complete the washdown in less time and the amount should be the same.

Pretty simple, the regular line discharges far more gpms and it's been more than 300 gallons extra. In theory, but in actual practice applying the water from the bigger line can actually be inefficient. Kind of the similar to the way that a pressure washer can do the same job as a garden hose using less water.

Sure, if money and/or space is an issue, not having the booster reel wouldn't be a huge hardship. However, if you have the space and can afford it, it's a very useful tool to have at your disposal IMO. It's really that simple.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sure, if money and/or space is an issue, not having the booster reel wouldn't be a huge hardship. However, if you have the space and can afford it, it's a very useful tool to have at your disposal IMO. It's really that simple.

I have yet to find an engine that was "PROPERLY EQUIPPED" that had enough space for that booster. I have seen a lot that did not carry all that they should.

How about the 50 to 75 extra gallons of water we could carry in its place?

Its not about the money, I have bought a number of high end apparatus, but I put that money into safety, apparatus service life and high functioning systems.

• "Final extinguishment of a smoldering engine compartment fire."

So you pack up the 1 3/4" line that you used to get to that point and then pull the booster to finish the job?

"No, the fire was out when we pulled up, but there was some stuff that was still smoldering. We didn't need a large volume of water for that. The booster reel was quicker to deploy, use and repack than the 1 3/4" trash line that we would've pulled if the car still had active fire."

- Ok, I'll give you that one, But,how often does this happen? and how often do you train in pulling an attack line?

• "Hitting some hot spots found during the investigation phase."

Same as above

Not exactly. In one specific situation, the attack lines had been broken down and we were preparing to leave the scene. The fire marshall found a spot that was smoldering some as he was digging thru burnt up contents. Pulling the booster reel was faster and easier than re-deploying the rolled up dirty lines or pulling a clean line.

- Ok, so once you failed to do a proper overhaul and it was easier to pull the booster than to do the jop right the 1st time.

• "As a protection line for the engine for a short period of time while pumping a fire."

If you need to protect your $500,000+ engine because you parked it too close, you need a real line

Depending on how big the fire is and how close you parked to it.

- Maybe the money spent on a booster would be better spent on training, particularly on rig placement. And 30 gpm is all you needed to protect it?

• "We've used it in several situations where we previously would've used a can. A lot easier to put a little water back in the tank back at the station than servicing the can."

Saves a whole minute

Saves a lot more time than that, at least the way we have to do it.

- Then maybe you should see how others do it.

• "We get called upon to "wash down" some public areas at times. Using regular handlines, we'd often have to refill at least once to complete the job. Just the other week my engine washed down the stage area of an outdoor "bandshell" style venue with less than 200 gallons of water."

How is it that you use an extra 300 gallons with the regular line? If you put out more water you complete the washdown in less time and the amount should be the same.

Pretty simple, the regular line discharges far more gpms and it's been more than 300 gallons extra. In theory, but in actual practice applying the water from the bigger line can actually be inefficient. Kind of the similar to the way that a pressure washer can do the same job as a garden hose using less water.

- Wow, physics, math and hydraulics do not work in your district the way I learned them.

My pressure washer uses the same amount of water (as its feed by that garden hose), but because of the "PRESSURE" it does work that no amount of water will ever do.

[FireMedic049 597]

I have yet to find an engine that was "PROPERLY EQUIPPED" that had enough space for that booster. I have seen a lot that did not carry all that they should.

Well, I won't argue that our engine is "PROPERLY EQUIPPED" since there is some equipment that I think we should carry but don't. However, the presence of the booster line has nothing to do with that. Our pumper is very, very similar to DCFD's current Seagrave pumpers, except for having full height compartments on both sides and an overhead ladder rack. The upper half of 3 of the compartments are empty, largely due to no shelves or mounting boards being spec'd for some reason - just one of several "flaws" with the engine design due to it being essentially spec'd by 1 person in secret with no input from the rest of the department (all 31 of us). We didn't even get to see the drawings before it was ordered.

Out of curiousity, what would be some of the stuff that you think should be on an engine, but commonly don't see on them?

How about the 50 to 75 extra gallons of water we could carry in its place?

Our booster line has no impact on how much water we can carry. It sits above the pump house so it isn't sitting in a spot that takes away from tank capacity and we carry 500 gallons of water just like many other urban engines carry.

Its not about the money, I have bought a number of high end apparatus, but I put that money into safety, apparatus service life and high functioning systems.

If it's not about the money, then what's the issue with a tool that we find to be very useful in a number of situations and isn't taking up compartment space or reducing our water capacity?

• "Final extinguishment of a smoldering engine compartment fire."

So you pack up the 1 3/4" line that you used to get to that point and then pull the booster to finish the job?

"No, the fire was out when we pulled up, but there was some stuff that was still smoldering. We didn't need a large volume of water for that. The booster reel was quicker to deploy, use and repack than the 1 3/4" trash line that we would've pulled if the car still had active fire."

- Ok, I'll give you that one, But,how often does this happen? and how often do you train in pulling an attack line?

Smoldering car fires, not that often, but we do see a decent amount of "nusaince" fires that we use it for without any issues. Truthfully, we don't train on pulling attack lines, but that's whole other discussion and not really relevant for what we are talking about since we'd be using the bumper line for these situations.

• "Hitting some hot spots found during the investigation phase."

Same as above

Not exactly. In one specific situation, the attack lines had been broken down and we were preparing to leave the scene. The fire marshall found a spot that was smoldering some as he was digging thru burnt up contents. Pulling the booster reel was faster and easier than re-deploying the rolled up dirty lines or pulling a clean line.

- Ok, so once you failed to do a proper overhaul and it was easier to pull the booster than to do the jop right the 1st time.

Right, because you and your department has always gotten the job done right the 1st time and never had a rekindle or found something smoldering after you thought the fire was completely extinguished.

• "As a protection line for the engine for a short period of time while pumping a fire."

If you need to protect your $500,000+ engine because you parked it too close, you need a real line

Depending on how big the fire is and how close you parked to it.

- Maybe the money spent on a booster would be better spent on training, particularly on rig placement.

Right, because fire conditions never get worse after we arrive and find our initial position to be compromised in some fashion.

And 30 gpm is all you needed to protect it?

Like I said, it all depends on how big the fire is and how close you parked to it.

• "We've used it in several situations where we previously would've used a can. A lot easier to put a little water back in the tank back at the station than servicing the can."

Saves a whole minute

Saves a lot more time than that, at least the way we have to do it.

- Then maybe you should see how others do it.

Feel free to share, but I know I can put 2.5 gallons of water back in the tank a lot faster than it takes to refill and pressurize a can.

• "We get called upon to "wash down" some public areas at times. Using regular handlines, we'd often have to refill at least once to complete the job. Just the other week my engine washed down the stage area of an outdoor "bandshell" style venue with less than 200 gallons of water."

How is it that you use an extra 300 gallons with the regular line? If you put out more water you complete the washdown in less time and the amount should be the same.

Pretty simple, the regular line discharges far more gpms and it's been more than 300 gallons extra. In theory, but in actual practice applying the water from the bigger line can actually be inefficient. Kind of the similar to the way that a pressure washer can do the same job as a garden hose using less water.

- Wow, physics, math and hydraulics do not work in your district the way I learned them.

Must be the case, since we've accomplished some "wash downs" using significantly less water than when they were done with regular handlines.

My pressure washer uses the same amount of water (as its feed by that garden hose), but because of the "PRESSURE" it does work that no amount of water will ever do.

Are you sure it uses the same amount of water? Using less water is a common selling point of pressure washers.

[FFPCogs 863]

I fondly remember the days of booster reels, pull up boots, 3/4 coats, no hoods, riding the backstep and even working without a pack on many occasions....and as far as I'm concerned that's where all that good ole stuff belongs, fond memories. Ultimately though if you believe your department has a use for a booster reel, spec it on you rigs and use the damn things to your hearts content.

Like all debates though there are always at least two sides to every story. So on the flip side:

Even though I don't agree with the tactic, having spent the last 2 1/2 years working with our British counterparts has shown that booster reels can be and are used effectively for interior fire attack in a number of circumstances, in fact it is a standard practice across the pond. But it is done in conjunction with a number of other tactical objectives centered around the 3D gas cooling method of firefighting prevalent in Europe.