Hero's or potential victims

[791075 34]

In a city the size and make up of New Rochelle there is plenty of POLICE work for cops to do supposedly, maybe they should stick to that since it is what the taxpayers are paying for. If they are looking to help at a fire scene, concentrate on clearing all the illegally parked cars out of the way so we can place our rigs where they belong. They can also assist with crowd control and helping the people that self evacuated since they have been thru a pretty traumatic experience. It would be a terrible thing for a P.O. to suffer any injury acting outside of his scope, and they dont need to breathe that crap in, they have enough hazards doing their job.

Edited June 25, 2013 by 791075

[wraftery 1,275]

Unfortunately with the bias on this board, remove firefighter from the first sentence and replace with police officer, and everyone will go nuts with how it is unsafe, they are untrained, unprepared, unprotected. I for one am getting real sick of it.

No malice intended towards cops. I was just giving an example of how heroism is perceived. My point was that a FF who made a difficult search which turned out negative worked harder than the perceived "hero" that made a quick grab at the front door.

There may be differences in personality between cops and FFs. I would not even consider myself being a cop. I think I can usually predict how a fire is going to act. I never can predict how a person is going to act. For this, I salute you guys.

About a year ago, I passed a female cop who had a person pulled over. The person was big and tough looking and was sitting in the drivers seat with his feet hanging out the door. The cop, a lefty, had her hand on her gun and her knees slightly bent. Her posturing gave me the impression that she was concerned with this guy, so I turned down the next street and called 911 to make sure she had backup. We are, after all, brothers in blue.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

This is all I see here so this will be my last post. See you on the fire floor or the floor above where the real men work!!!

And the bias comes out...

Not for nothing, if your profile is accurate you're an Explorer/Junior. You have just as much reason as a cop to be on the fire floor or the floor above "where the real men work."

There was a time on this site where not having an accurate affiliation got you suspended, so we could at least tell if someone had any idea what they were talking about.

[lad12derff 283]

I have no "vile" towords any police officer, and if there is a situation that a LEO deserves accolades Im one of the people doing it. You seem to be missing one point yourself...we are concerned for the welfare of ANY first responder that takes it upon themselves to enter an IDLH atmosphere without any information (such as the CO incident). With all of the talk about "chemical assisted suicides", and drug labs with deadly gasses...WHAT would make someone with no airway protection enter in to a situation like that? Regardless of known life hazards?? You could instantly drop dead of exposure if you tried to run into a chemical suicide or drug lab gone bad situation. There was a situation in NY not too long ago where EMS were dispatched to a "Man Down" call. When they arrived the wife was just outside the closed front door saying her husband is on the floor just inside the door and she doesnt know any other way in to get to him...wait, you live there, and dont know any other way in??? That should have stopped EMS there but they forced the door/victim open enough to get to him and 2 medics dropped dead from fumes coming from an illegal drug lab in the living room. The wife knew this and thats why she was not trying to get to her husband.

Point in case- we dont know what is going on inside the house in situations like this; could be just CO, could be a mass chemical suicide, could be a group of druggies fallen victim to their own drug lab, could be ANYTHING.

Police have vests, guns, tazers and other things to handle perps.

Firefighters have gear, air packs, and other tools to fight fires and make rescues.

A TRAINED police officer should be able to look at all the info, the area they are responding to, and have enough sense to say "Ok, I will give FD a few minutes to get here and see where I am at at that point". Just like if I roll up to my bank, look throught he window and see a masked man holding a gun to the tellers head, I will have enough sense to say "Ok, Im going to hold all these people out of the bank and call PD and wait for them to charge in there."

There are situations where it is necessary for us to make split second decisions, like Seth mentioned about the PD arriving on scene of a house fire, kids trapped and FD 15 minutes out...If it were me I would most certainly run in and ATTEMPT to make a rescue any way I could, I am human, all training and uniforms and job titles asside...if I am on scene and other humans are in trouble I will want to help.

No one here hates cops. I believe everyone here was confused over your initial post and what your intent was exactly. I myself saw this post when no one had answered yet and I waited for others to respond to see if they knew what you were asking, or wanted to discuss. Just sayin.

Your killing me here Moose! I said I was done and you pulled me back in!

Your second sentence says it all. I like to think that most of the topics I post will and should be thought about and deciphered. Almost like the 24 hour rule replying to some touchy email received. Step back, read, re-read and think. It just amazes me that one person who is in a supervisory role here thinks that (A) I along with all FD members dislike cops. Absurd and totally out of line. ( B ) it is ok to be DISPATCHED to a call that you are not trained or suited for. I too am in a supervisory role and have had plenty of discussions with my superiors over calls I do not feel my men were prepared for. I know when I accepted the promotion that I also accepted the fact that I will do what it takes to return my Brothers home the next morning the same way they showed up the morning before.

Our Job as well as I would say the majority of FD's have written SOP's for all calls we respond to. Why do we have written SOP's? The FD works as a team to mitigate any and all calls we respond to. Wether you are first due truck ( forcible entry, fire floor and OV ) to second truck ( forcible entry, floor above and coordinated ventilation for the engines ) first engine ( line placement ) second engine ( water source, backup first line ) third engine ( second handline to back up ) and so on down the line.

What could a PD SOP dictate for the first due officer to a job? Do they even have an SOP or are they flying by the seat of their pants? I mean really? Do you honestly believe we are "attacking " the law enforcement community here?

Edited June 25, 2013 by lad12derff

[lad12derff 283]

And the bias comes out...

Not for nothing, if your profile is accurate you're an Explorer/Junior. You have just as much reason as a cop to be on the fire floor or the floor above "where the real men work."

There was a time on this site where not having an accurate affiliation got you suspended, so we could at least tell if someone had any idea what they were talking about.

First off I can't believe you would rate my content and knowledge based on what my affiliation title says. How about almost 20 years in the second busiest FD in Westchester. 6 years as a fire officer. Assigned to all 3 truck companies in my city where the real men do work over the last 18 years. ( sorry engine brothers ) I was probably crawling down hallways while you were walking down hallways in junior high school.

It also says I'm 99 years old, do you think that is real?

[lad12derff 283]

And the bias comes out...Not for nothing, if your profile is accurate you're an Explorer/Junior. You have just as much reason as a cop to be on the fire floor or the floor above "where the real men work." There was a time on this site where not having an accurate affiliation got you suspended, so we could at least tell if someone had any idea what they were talking about.

If your info is correct then you would have been walking down those hallways in elementary school when I was crawling down the ones on fire. Sorry for the mistake

[firemoose827 324]

Your killing me here Moose! I said I was done and you pulled me back in!

Your second sentence says it all. I like to think that most of the topics I post will and should be thought about and deciphered. Almost like the 24 hour rule replying to some touchy email received. Step back, read, re-read and think. It just amazes me that one person who is in a supervisory role here thinks that (A) I along with all FD members dislike cops. Absurd and totally out of line. ( B ) it is ok to be DISPATCHED to a call that you are not trained or suited for. I too am in a supervisory role and have had plenty of discussions with my superiors over calls I do not feel my men were prepared for. I know when I accepted the promotion that I also accepted the fact that I will do what it takes to return my Brothers home the next morning the same way they showed up the morning before.

Our Job as well as I would say the majority of FD's have written SOP's for all calls we respond to. Why do we have written SOP's? The FD works as a team to mitigate any and all calls we respond to. Wether you are first due truck ( forcible entry, fire floor and OV ) to second truck ( forcible entry, floor above and coordinated ventilation for the engines ) first engine ( line placement ) second engine ( water source, backup first line ) third engine ( second handline to back up ) and so on down the line.

What could a PD SOP dictate for the first due officer to a job? Do they even have an SOP or are they flying by the seat of their pants? I mean really? Do you honestly believe we are "attacking " the law enforcement community here?

I never said anyone here was attacking the LE Community. I quoted you because you used the term vile. I was addressing what I thought to be a topic wide thought that we were singling out LEO's, which is why I clearly stated we were concerned with ALL first responders that make poor decisions. Maybe you should re-read my post???

Im all for ALL first responders.

As a "supervisory position" i too look to make sure all of us come home after every call. I admit it though, I am new to the chiefs position and would welcome any and all advice you ahve for me in that area. I respect your experience and training.

My thoughts here...simply put; ALL first responders (FD, PD, EMS) that arrive on scene first need to be aware of ALL of the dangers, including the new ones like I mentioned in my post. Too many of us die recently due to someone else trying to take their own lives, or trying to get a high, or simply because they are pissed at the world but dont have the courage to end it on their own so they get a gun and hope the LEO's will shoot them...its a sad world we live in. But you dont have to worry about me, Im on OUR side here and not singling any one out, just concerned for the recent events and how some first responders are still acting dangerously without applying their training and knowledge.

Stay Safe out there.

[firebuff860 54]

First off I can't believe you would rate my content and knowledge based on what my affiliation title says. How about almost 20 years in the second busiest FD in Westchester. 6 years as a fire officer. Assigned to all 3 truck companies in my city where the real men do work over the last 18 years. ( sorry engine brothers ) I was probably crawling down hallways while you were walking down hallways in junior high school.

It also says I'm 99 years old, do you think that is real?

A 99 year old explorer! Gotta love the dedication.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I guess I wouldn't go so far as to tell LEO's not to enter any structure, but in fact hope that they'd have or be receptive to some education as to what they can do that won't make things worse, much like us messing up crimes scenes or becoming potential victims when we arrive ahead of them at a shooting or similar crime. As a fire officer in a place where resources are scarce at the outset, having LEO's that bang on doors and can point us in the direction of which apartment door has the paint peeling off is nice. Thus far we've not had any try and open fire apartment doors or make a search under smoke. We are all here to serve the public and assume some risks as part of our sworn duty. The stop[ping point of one's actions should be where they can no longer make an informed risk/benefit analysis. Many LEO's are also firefighters or have been and may have greater understanding of these choices, much like many firefighters have experience that allows them better assessment skills at some crime scenes. Much like the Columbine massacre, if we choose to not allow another discipline to assume any risk more people may die as a result. These incidents should be the jumping off point for PD/FD/EMS discussions on how we might help each other while not becoming part of the problem.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Since it turns out he's not an Explorer/Junior, I will admit I was wrong and I take back my previous comment and I've apologized to Lad12derff in PM and am doing so here. Sorry for the trouble, I honestly had no clue who you were.

[lad12derff 283]

No worries. I now know that this picture taken is not you.

[FirNaTine 370]

First off I can't believe you would rate my content and knowledge based on what my affiliation title says. How about almost 20 years in the second busiest FD in Westchester. 6 years as a fire officer. Assigned to all 3 truck companies in my city where the real men do work over the last 18 years. ( sorry engine brothers ) I was probably crawling down hallways while you were walking down hallways in junior high school.

It also says I'm 99 years old, do you think that is real?

Sorry Brother but I have to take exception to this post. While covering both Engine and Truck Companies for close to 30yrs I must say "Truckies" truly are nothing but a Fireman's Helper. Your still Loved though! I'm always concerned for my Brother "Ladderman" about the inside stream striking them on the outside when they're taking windows! No seriously you Truckies are awesome you always have fresh cold bottles of water for us Engine Grunts when we come out for a "Blow" and a spare bottle waiting for us. "Tally Ho" Bro!

Edited June 25, 2013 by FirNaTine

[lad12derff 283]

Sorry Brother but I have to take exception to this post. While covering both Engine and Truck Companies for close to 30yrs I must say "Truckies" truly are nothing but a Fireman's Helper. Your still Loved though! I'm always concerned for my Brother "Ladderman" about the inside stream striking them on the outside when they're taking windows! No seriously you Truckies are awesome you always have fresh cold bottles of water for us Engine Grunts when we come out for a "Blow" and a spare bottle waiting for us. "Tally Ho" Bro!

Where's the one about why Trucks are dispatched to the highway with the Engine? We are there to block the road for the Engine, just like traffic cones we are dispensable.

Who closes the door when you leave on another EMS call? Who finishes the meal when you go out for a tummy ache? The truck has been taking care of the engine since horses pooped in firehouses!!!

[wraftery 1,275]

Now that we're all friends, could someone just click and like this post? It doesn't matter whether you are a cop, FF,EMT,man, woman, old , young, or even a dog, if he can hit the like button.. You see, I now have 899 points and would really like to hit 900 by the end of the day. Also, if you see I hit 900, don't hit the like button because I have achieved my goal and I don't know if EMT-Brave has a procedure for removing points that weren't earned.

Although, if you really liked this stupid post, I guess you would have to hit the like button. But then, how would I know if you really like this post or are just throwing points at me because I only needed one point.

See? It isn't easy being a Chief and making these decisions.

[lad12derff 283]

Now that we're all friends, could someone just click and like this post? It doesn't matter whether you are a cop, FF,EMT,man, woman, old , young, or even a dog, if he can hit the like button.. You see, I now have 899 points and would really like to hit 900 by the end of the day. Also, if you see I hit 900, don't hit the like button because I have achieved my goal and I don't know if EMT-Brave has a procedure for removing points that weren't earned. Although, if you really liked this stupid post, I guess you would have to hit the like button. But then, how would I know if you really like this post or are just throwing points at me because I only needed one point. See? It isn't easy being a Chief and making these decisions.

Sorry chief I clicked like and finished reading and had to unlike because of your request

[791075 34]

Sorry chief I clicked like and finished reading and had to unlike because of your request

Shoot...ready...aim!

[FirNaTine 370]

Sorry Brother but I have to take exception to this post. While covering both Engine and Truck Companies for close to 30yrs I must say "Truckies" truly are nothing but a Fireman's Helper. Your still Loved though! I'm always concerned for my Brother "Ladderman" about the inside stream striking them on the outside when they're taking windows! No seriously you Truckies are awesome you always have fresh cold bottles of water for us Engine Grunts when we come out for a "Blow" and a spare bottle waiting for us. "Tally Ho" Bro!

Where's the one about why Trucks are dispatched to the highway with the Engine? We are there to block the road for the Engine, just like traffic cones we are dispensable.

Who closes the door when you leave on another EMS call? Who finishes the meal when you go out for a tummy ache? The truck has been taking care of the engine since horses pooped in firehouses!!!

The Horses s*** in the Station cause the Truckies never left quarters and the only time they shut the door after the Engine goes out for EMS is if it's before 11pm! It's all good though buddy!

[wraftery 1,275]

Sorry chief I clicked like and finished reading and had to unlike because of your request

Get rid of that Explorer/Junior stuff on your profile. With that kind of logic, you should be a Chief too!

[firemoose827 324]

Truckies VS. Engine....

I can beat you all on this one, I happen to go both ways...

Your not a fireman until you are an "Iron Man Firefighter" and have to do both jobs at a moments notice.

Stay Safe out there...(truckies)...

[Remember585 815]

I'm just glad to not be reading another paid vs. volunteer thread...

[AFS1970 504]

From the dispatch persepective I have always wondered why we send agencies to other agencie's calls. In my dispatch center a call for a structure fire automatically goes to both the police and fire dispatchers. By the very nature of police being out on patrol and fire waiting in a station for a call, it is almost impossible for the police to not arrive first. I often ask this question, why are we sending the police. Most often I get the nebulous answer that they might be needed. By this theory we should send police, fire and EMS on all calls because they might be needed. Do we send EMS on all buglaries because someone might have cut themselves on a broken window? I have been criticized for not sending the dive team to a car partially in the water with the driver standing looking at it, based on the idea that there might have been a body in the trunk. If that were really a concern then fire should be responding to all abandoned cars for the same reason.

Now there are concerns that the police need to deal with at many fire scenes, but none are critical enough that we need to send them well before we have alerted the fire department. THe old joke about the first car having to get there in time to block the hydrant is only sometimes a joke, but I was on a call once where one of our guys had to get out of the tower ladder and move the unattended police car at the end of the block, because the officer parked it across the street then walked up to look at the fire. I get that there are sometimes traffic concerns and there are even times when fires become crime scenes, but I also think that we are sometimes putting our responders in a no win situation by sending them unequiped for the situation.

The example of the police officer on scene when a civilian brigns out a victim needing CPR is one thing. But the public expects all responders to just do something. They do not understand why that police officer is not running in and trying to rescue all those people. This has lead to a culture where we have trained police officers to disregard their own safety. Why do firefighters wear turnout gear? Because years of science have told us it is the best way not to get burned. Why do police run into burning buildings? Because the fire department was not there yet. To this I will ask why were the police there? As a dispatcher I can wait a few seconds for the fire department to be alerted before sending the police to a call where their main function will be support, especially in a world where most fire responses are under 5 minutes.

[JCESU 20]

we all take calculated risks-only sometimes adrenaline causes us to miscalculate...

Edited June 27, 2013 by JCESU

[antiquefirelt 994]

From the dispatch persepective I have always wondered why we send agencies to other agencie's calls.

I think sending the PD is great, it's what some do when they arrive we need to work on (the reverse is likely true for FD/EMS units reporting crimes in progress). Upon arrival a person with a direct link to dispatch and no emotional attachment can assess the situation, suddenly "fully involved" becomes light smoke from 1 or 2 windows or "reported fire" becomes fire from the top floor of a 3 story apartment building." Anytime we get more accurate information before we arrive, we are better off.The PD certainly can clear the block of cars stopping to see what's going on, hep evacuate persons from threatened structures and yes, in many cases the fire building. Of course the larger your PD, the less chance you can have a positive effect on their fireground senses and what helps/hurts, unless you can get an hour of their academy time (good luck). I would anticipate the common taxpayer would like to see a city employee arrive and at least appear to be taking action as early as possible, rather than sitting a few blocks away oblivious to it all?

Similarly, while fire and EMS is not usually sent ahead of the PD to crimes, when we're at a scene for some reason we can be looking for and noting things, radioing in pertinent developments and generally being better witnesses than the average citizen. Jumping in is obviously not smart unless no other choice exists and someone's life is in danger without immediate intervention.

Edited June 27, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[Chkpoint 131]

AFS. How about you have a fire and now a large crowd of people or even a small crowd. Plenty of people always want to get up close and see. Especially in today's world of cell phone cameras. Even if there is not a fire you just never know what can happen or pop up. It doesn't hurt to send both. I am a little offended by your statement and if you are a dispatcher I would think you would have some common sense of why PD should go. I have stated clearly my stance on this topic that its an FD job and they go in but I still feel I am needed and have been several cases at a fire scene I was. Like I said that one dingbat with a camera standing right next to the engine as FD is trying to grab a line or the tool and is in the way. Let me take care of that that's why I am there.

[AFS1970 504]

There are absolutely things for each service to do at many scenes. I think it is not just adreneline that causes the potential to become victims but the genuine desire to do something helpful. This is exactly why most of us went into these fields. nobody wants to feel useless or for that matter to appear useless. This is by no means a bad thing, but it works against us. I am not saying never to send the police to a fire call, but I am not sure why it seems like a raceto see who can dispatch their units first, when the clear priority is getting the fire department going and in place quickly and efficiently.

This works for other services also. I once dispatched an EDP call in a district that the FD goes on all medicals. So this call got PD, FD & EMS. I told FD & EMS to stage a block away and wait until the police cleared the scene. After a while the Captain on the engine gets on the air and asks if he can clear up, when I told him I would see if PD needed them, he said he could see them loading the EDP into the ambulance from his staging point. EMS didn't feel the need to stage. I notified the EMS supervisor about this and was told it was not my job to tell them to stage, his guys knew how to watch out for their own safety. Funny how things change, now if I don't tell them to stage they ask for a staging location on the air.

The goal always has been and always will be that everyone goes home in one piece.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Anytime we get more accurate information before we arrive, we are better off.

The PD certainly can clear the block of cars stopping to see what's going on, hep evacuate persons from threatened structures and yes, in many cases the fire building. Of course the larger your PD, the less chance you can have a positive effect on their fireground senses and what helps/hurts, unless you can get an hour of their academy time (good luck).

You are correct, We occasionally get from them "its a big fire" (nice if we originally only had it as an alarm), But most of the time all I have ever heard is tell them to "expidite".....

In the past the only cars we ever found that were blocking FD access were PD. In recent years with better supervision (sgt shows up with the sector cars) its less of a problem.

[firemoose827 324]

AFS. How about you have a fire and now a large crowd of people or even a small crowd. Plenty of people always want to get up close and see. Especially in today's world of cell phone cameras. Even if there is not a fire you just never know what can happen or pop up. It doesn't hurt to send both. I am a little offended by your statement and if you are a dispatcher I would think you would have some common sense of why PD should go. I have stated clearly my stance on this topic that its an FD job and they go in but I still feel I am needed and have been several cases at a fire scene I was. Like I said that one dingbat with a camera standing right next to the engine as FD is trying to grab a line or the tool and is in the way. Let me take care of that that's why I am there.

I agree, police are needed for all scenes. In my old department the village cops responded to all of our calls in the village, EMS and Fire. One or two were also volunteers themselves and could get on scene and grab that ACCURATE information you talked about. For EMS calls they make sure the scene is safe, no matter what we were called for, and help us with equipment and the stretcher, and help carry them to the rig and on a few occaissions they even went to the ER and helped us get the larger pt's out of the rig too.

For fires they blocked off the road and kept bystanders out, even helped us hit a plug every now and then too and stretch supply lines. I have no issue with them responding at all. Like we all mentioned, its the first responder that doesnt THINK and apply their TRAINING and puts themselves in unnecessary danger that we are talking about; Fire, EMS or LEO.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree, police are needed for all scenes.

All scenes? How about many or most.

In my 1st 15 years our PD was never sent on EMS calls at nursing homes. Then all of a sudden they were being sent to everyone. I asked why (they do not provide any pt care) and was told they were needed to determine if a crime had been committed (pt with a fever).

I asked why they were not arresting people, because its a crime to treat people the way they are treated in some "skilled nursing facilities"?

Often they do not arrive until after EMS has transported, they just get the info or meet the ambulance at the ER. These extra couple thousand calls are showing "productivity"

[AFS1970 504]

Often they do not arrive until after EMS has transported, they just get the info or meet the ambulance at the ER. These extra couple thousand calls are showing "productivity"

To many bosses, this is sadly what it is all about. For that matter a good deal of the EMS calls that get fire apparatus are for the same reason. This is not to say that extra manpower is not a benefit in many cases, it is not to say that first responder programs are bad, it is just they are rarely motivated by patient care. Sadly we have responders going to dangerous scenes for no good reason.

A friend of mine is chief of a VAC in a small town in NJ, they are sent on all traffic colisions, even if all involved report no injuries, because the police want everybody checked out. However the bigger issue safety wise is that since they rarely spend the duty shift in quarters (building is not that nice) you have 2-3 home responders going for the ambulance then the ambulance going out all for an eventual RMA. I told him there was an easy way to stop that if he wanted. Stabalize all vehicles before entering to assess, pop a few tires on main street and those calls will magically not be needed any more.

[antiquefirelt 994]

You are correct, We occasionally get from them "its a big fire" (nice if we originally only had it as an alarm), But most of the time all I have ever heard is tell them to "expidite".....

I love calls to expedite! Upon this request we've asked dispatch to tell them we're travelling as fast as safely possible! This happens to us quite often providing ALS back-up to outside agencies.