Rye CO incident 6/16/13

[lad12derff 283]

So first things first. Is there any update on the Rye cops who were transported from the CO call in Rye? I hope they are recovering well.

Is there anyone who can fill us in on this incident? On scene members who can help those who still believe this is a routine call. I am pretty sure I can figure out how things went here after responding to more CO calls than I can count. If this went the way I think it went it could have gone south real fast for those RPD members.

Once in a while the pot does need to be stirred or we will burn the food!!!!

[Chkpoint 131]

Last I read in Newsday? I believe. it stated Rye PD members were back to work yesterday for their shift. Could have been bad for them.

[JetPhoto 626]

Can you please fill us outsiders in on what your talking about? I am assuming based on what I see is that some officers walked in and were overcome by CO

[fdce54 15]

The occupants of the house left the car running in the garage all night. Six occupants were hospitalized, one initially reported to be critical. At the earlier CO call in RYE, the occupants left the oven on all night. Three were transported to the hospital for evaluation. With all that can go wrong to cause CO, these two incidents were caused by carelessness.

[grumpyff 1,159]

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013306160035

[mreis95 77]

I saw a FF coming out of the house with a meter on News 12, wearing scba and on air but was only wearing turnout pants and no other ppe. So it seems like after the Rye officers rescued the occupants and all were transported it then became a routine call, with venting and re-checking of CO levels. Good job all involved

[Remember585 815]

I don't see any reason why anyone, in this case it appears the PD, should enter a home full of CO. They just create more problems for other responding personnel.

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't see any reason why anyone, in this case it appears the PD, should enter a home full of CO. They just create more problems for other responding personnel.

Is that how it was reported or did it simply come in as an aided case?

[x635 4,066]

The two “physically dragged the son out,” Connors said.

“It appeared without hesitation they (Rye PD) went into the house without fear for their own safety to rescue this individual,” he said.

'Nuff said. Great job.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The two “physically dragged the son out,” Connors said.

Yes, it took two poorly prepared LEOs to remove an individual one properly prepared FF could have removed himself (and it would not have sent him to the hospital). The reason why it took two of them is because they were starving their brain for O2, effectively dying, as they were removing the victim.

'Nuff said. Great job.

No, not "'nuff" said. PD nearly got themselves killed because balls took over for brains. I wonder if we would be calling this a great job if one of these officers had succumb to their exposure?

The last incident I can remember in Westchester where poorly equipped individuals went into an IDLH environment we finished the day with two LODDs. After this incident, we nearly had two more.

[x635 4,066]

Yes, it took two poorly prepared LEOs to remove an individual one properly prepared FF could have removed himself (and it would not have sent him to the hospital). The reason why it took two of them is because they were starving their brain for O2, effectively dying, as they were removing the victim.

No, not "'nuff" said. PD nearly got themselves killed because balls took over for brains. I wonder if we would be calling this a great job if one of these officers had succumb to their exposure?

The last incident I can remember in Westchester where poorly equipped individuals went into an IDLH environment we finished the day with two LODDs. After this incident, we nearly had two more.

So, leave him and his parents there to die while they just watched? If you saw someone trying to get out of a burning car, would you just stand there and watch until FD arrival? If you saw a man collapse in the middle of an intersection, would you just stand there and watch because you didn't have a traffic safety vest? And how do you know what information the officers got from dispatch, and what they encountered. We don't have the facts to be scrutinizing these officers. I'm sure if it were two neighbors or off duty firefighters, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sometimes, you need to risk some to save some. These officers evacuated the parents immediately, and went in for the son, who was moments away from death. Or, as you put it, "balls over brains". Or booksmart vs. streetsmart. It's easy to anylyze an incidents afterwards, but when you're in the moment, you do what you are trained to do.

Anyone who's had enough experience on the job knows when you are exposed to situations like this, you're often taken to the hospital just as a precaution. Such as firefighters with smoke inhalation. So just because the officers went to the hospital doesn't mean anything signifcant.

And the "previous IDLH incident" you refer to is like apples and oranges and doesn't need to be rehashed here.

The Police Officers in this situation took heroic action, for nothing else but to save lives. I'm not saying whether their actions were right, nor am I saying it was wrong. But 3 people are alive. Again, 'nuff said.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I can see the headline now, "Rye police let man die while waiting for volunteers."

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't see any reason why anyone, in this case it appears the PD, should enter a home full of CO. They just create more problems for other responding personnel.

'Nuff said. Great job.

I saw nothing, smell nothing so it must be safe right?

Before reading the other responses all I could think of was would we have labeled this if they did not survive this incident. I bet its not "great job".

[x635 4,066]

Before reading the other responses all I could think of was would we have labeled this if they did not survive this incident. I bet its not "great job".

But, god forbid, hypothetically on another call, they were ambushed upon arrival. But they protected others from the assailant. Just because they were injured or killed, it automatically means they didn't do a "great job"?

Also, what if this occured in a remote part of the county where the FD might be 15 minutes out? And the cops just sat outside while this guy died inside waiting for the FD to arrive?

I've also seen numerous fires in which guys were overhauling with no SCBA. Studies have shown that CO and other gases is high in those atmospheres, and although there is equipment available, it is rarely monitored. Are those guys doing a great job?

I think the main culprit in this incident should be the promotion of wired CO detectors to prevent these incidents from getting this far in the first place.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So, leave him and his parents there to die while they just watched?

So lets forget all our training and just run in?

If you saw someone trying to get out of a burning car, would you just stand there and watch until FD arrival? If you saw a man collapse in the middle of an intersection, would you just stand there and watch because you didn't have a traffic safety vest?

A traffic vest is a big difference from an SCBA

And how do you know what information the officers got from dispatch, and what they encountered. We don't have the facts to be scrutinizing these officers. I'm sure if it were two neighbors or off duty firefighters, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sometimes, you need to risk some to save some.

You are correct we don't know what info they got. If it was off duty FF's we would be saying the exact same thing.

So lets get ride of all PPE and training.We could just risk it to save someone.

As a supervisor, I have a responsability to my personnel to send them home at the end of the shift (or call). If we can save someone after evaluating and minimizing the risks (thru PPE) then lets do it otherwise we are not providing a service to the community.

.

[Bnechis 3,961]

. It's easy to anylyze an incidents afterwards, but when you're in the moment, you do what you are trained to do.

1) if you can't anylyze it as part of your SIZE-UP, then you need to get another line of work.

It's easy to anylyze an incidents afterwards, but when you're in the moment, you do what you are trained to do.

2) I am sure they were never trained to do what they did.

And the "previous IDLH incident" you refer to is like apples and oranges and doesn't need to be rehashed here.

The Police Officers in this situation took heroic action, for nothing else but to save lives. I'm not saying whether their actions were right, nor am I saying it was wrong. But 3 people are alive. Again, 'nuff said.

I wont go into details or rehash it. But in one incident the law was violated when responders entered an IDLH atmosphere and in the other incident the law was violated when responders entered an IDLH atmosphere. The difference is in this case the responders were lucky.

Yes 3 are alive, but the FD could have pulled up and had 5 down and that would have doomed the 3 original victims, as they would have most likely goneafter the down officers 1st.

[Bnechis 3,961]

But, god forbid, hypothetically on another call, they were ambushed upon arrival. But they protected others from the assailant. Just because they were injured or killed, it automatically means they didn't do a "great job"?

No it does not and you know it. Apples vs. Oranges.....big difference between a toxic gas and an ambush

Also, what if this occured in a remote part of the county where the FD might be 15 minutes out? And the cops just sat outside while this guy died inside waiting for the FD to arrive?

Sorry, but its generally not the cops job to go into an IDLH atmosphere and it is also not his job to get killed at work.

I've also seen numerous fires in which guys were overhauling with no SCBA. Studies have shown that CO and other gases is high in those atmospheres, and although there is equipment available, it is rarely monitored. Are those guys doing a great job?

No, there is no excuse for that.

I think the main culprit in this incident should be the promotion of wired CO detectors to prevent these incidents from getting this far in the first place.

How about telling people not to have their cars running over night in the garage.

[x635 4,066]

I feel, in this instance, these officers did a great job. Making a traffic stop is far more dangerous then this to a police officer. But should they stop making traffic stops? No. There may be other opinions, but that is mine and I stand by it. I can think of many other counterpoints to the opposing arguments, but there is no point, my opinion is not going to change.

How about telling people not to have their cars running over night in the garage.

So smoke and CO detectors are useless? They were elderly, and this is not something unheard of. There should be more of a focus on promoting these alarms, so we're not having these types of situations progress.

[Chkpoint 131]

Personally I can tell you I have never gone in when arriving first ahead of FD on a FD job. especially CO call. Not my job to go in. Yes people could be in danger or down but it's not my job. I leave it to FD and standby outside. If they need me for something they can let me know. My thinking is why go in if someone is ready down they are already in a bad situation and overcome. Ill just be another person down and creating more problems. FD is around for a reason. Just my 2 cents

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

I can see the headline now, "Rye police let man die while waiting for volunteers."

What about the 4 firefighters that are on duty that would have been first due to this call?

[Remember585 815]

I am not bashing the Police Officers involved. I think what they did just proves how most put service above self. But in the 2-3 minutes from the time PD arrived to the time the FD arrived, I truly don't think it would have a major affect on the victims.

With that said, this incident highlights why we should be considering CO detectors for EMS and PD personnel. Way too often, both of these agencies respond to medical calls or welfare checks, only to find the problem to be a Carbon Monoxide incident. They're fairly inexpensive, small enough to put almost anywhere and are almost idiot-proof.

We have to look out for ourselves, who else is going to?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I feel, in this instance, these officers did a great job. Making a traffic stop is far more dangerous then this to a police officer. But should they stop making traffic stops?

Police officers are extensivly trained and equipped to make traffic stops. While they may or may not be "more dangerious" they can and do make a size-up that is intended to keep them safe. If they are not trained and equipped to handle a toxic & potentially flammable environment they can not make a size up and while it may occur less often the CO incident is more dangerious. Again apples to oranges?

No. There may be other opinions, but that is mine and I stand by it. I can think of many other counterpoints to the opposing arguments, but there is no point, my opinion is not going to change.

You are intitled to your opinion, but based on your statements you just failed almost every station of your NYS EMT-P exam:

My scenario for your Patient Assessment station:

Neighbors report a man down in a house.

You and your partner arrive 1st to this medical emergency

The 1st critical fail on the states check list is....................................IS THE SCENE SAFE?

If you asked the question (as required to become/continue as an EMT or Medic) and I answered their is a car running in the attached garage and the neighbors are yelling "HURRY I THINK HE STOPPED BREATHING"

What do you do?

In the real world your answer affects your life, but here in the classroom it affects your ability to become or stay an EMT or paramedic.

So smoke and CO detectors are useless? They were elderly, and this is not something unheard of. There should be more of a focus on promoting these alarms, so we're not having these types of situations progress.

Never said they are useless. In fact they are required by code. So along with promoting them, we should be teaching about running cars and grills in the house.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Bnechis

[firemoose827 324]

Just a few observations and additional items to think about;

If this had been a robery/hostage situation and 2 off-duty firefighters ran in and rescued the hostages without incident, would we call the firefighters Heros? Pat them on the back and say "Atta boy"?

Granted, its human nature to want to go and help (for some humans anyway) and there will always be someone that will "run in" and try to help wherever or however they can, we cant and wont be able to stop that. But with this instance, these are professional police officers who should know better then to try and enter an "Unknown" situation and put themselves in harms way, and possibly add themselves to the problem. Im not a cop and have no police training but I am sure they have had some training to that effect that adding more victims to the scene just adds to the rescuers problem, especially since they firefighters will want to save the police officers first, making the original victims wait that much longer before receiving the very much needed O2. Brain damage occurs after 4 minutes without oxygen?

[INIT915 1,119]

So, PD shouldn't respond to aided cases in the event it might be a CO call? And the FD and EMS doesn't want to respond to calls in the event they walk into an ambush?

Some of the comments from certain posters about law enforcement are to be expected, sadly.

S.M.H.

[x635 4,066]

Never said they are useless. In fact they are required by code. So along with promoting them, we should be teaching about running cars and grills in the house.

The couple was elderly. It is entirely possible that they accidentally left the car running.

As for practical scenario testing, how often to you intubate with the patient on a table in a favorable position, with plenty of room and with all the supplies neatly arranged with adequate lighting?

I understand the concerns about going into a structure with possible CO, and the deadly side effects.I don't have the details to speculate any more about this incident.

This country is built on citizens making sacrifices for their fellow citizens. I agree with keeping yourself safe, because you can't help anyone if you're not.....but sometimes I think we are wrapping ourselves so much in personal safety bubble wrap that eventually, it will harm us and the people who we serve.

[Nite Boss 34]

Wow...This is great,everyone preaching about responder safety and how dangerous that CO call was...So,let's all take a step back and think,It's no different when an off-duty FF makes a grab as he's driving by,or the FF who tackles a perp,or the PO who drags a person out of a burning car,all with no PPE or back-up,but guess what we do it,because it's in our blood,to help others in need.Has there been times it went wrong yes,and others where it worked,so at the end of the day,it's a crap shoot. While,I would not advocate doing this,if circumstances were known ahead of time,but I'm not sure of the whole situation.

I can tell you standing there when someone needs help and not being able to do something sucks...

Why I'm not bashing anyone here or ever will,I find it funny how people are preaching safety and PPE,when we all know it's not practiced all the time. Hell,the FD entered the IDLH area with SCBA and partial PPE,so do we really know what was going on? Whatever,with this, we can go on forever,was it the right call? Don't know wasn't there, as everyone else here,it worked out right,but it's a hell of a crap shoot.

[dc2t 80]

Was this a check on the welfare call? Tooooo many keyboard experts. Let it go wow.

[JM15 386]

I wonder if Rye PD has a respiratory protection plan?

[Chkpoint 131]

Like I said if I know it's CO call or even gas calls. I wait for FD. Not afraid to go in its just the fact that you have FD for a reason. CO is deadly and easily you can go down. As a police officer you are trained that if you see people on the floor by moving then you better get the hell out of there and call in what you see. You learn that in basic terrorism training. Every situation is different. If I see a car burning with people in it I will try and do what I can to get them out while FD is in route. That sceneeio hasnt happened to me but i know i would. Maybe it's as simple as smashing the window. But CO is not something to mess with in my opinion. But every cop is different and as first responders most of us have the run in mentality. Why we do what we do.

[JM15 386]

Upon re-reading the article I am confused were the officers actually admitted or just evaluated as a precaution?