NY responders to wear body armor to medical calls

[JM15 386]

BALLSTON SPA, N.Y. — The bombing in Boston, where responders can be seen running toward the explosions, and the December attacks in Western NY where a man started a fire and shot and killed the responding firefighters, underscore the danger that emergency responders could encounter on any given day.

"The only difference is EMS providers are the ones who don't have safety equipment. A polo shirt and a pair of Dickies is not safety equipment," said Tim Thomas, a paramedic and assistant chief of the Community Emergency Corps.

Full article at: http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/Personal-protective-equipment-ppe/articles/1441229-NY-responders-to-wear-body-armor-to-medical-calls/

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Body armor wouldn't have saved the last few EMTs/FFs that have been shot and killed in the line of duty. Also, not to say it can't happen here but it really puzzles me that so many more suburban/rural EMTs and EMS agencies advocate body armor vs EMTs who work in urban areas with higher crime. I understand sick crazy people live everywhere but it almost feels like these guys were law enforcement rejects and are using the misfortune of others as a means to get vests...

[50-65 205]

..almost feels like these guys were law enforcement rejects and are using the misfortune of others as a means to get vests...

You know, I had almost forgotten that by the choice of one's career, certain people are entitled to special priviledges that the rest of us peons are not. Really? Because there are some assinine laws, rules, and regulations that prevent us regular people from being able to protect and defend ourselves, we shouldn't be allowed to take any measures?

This bs that because I'm "law enforcement" I'm better than you really needs to stop.

[Nite Boss 34]

Why I try only comment on Police issues,there is a few things that need to addressed here:

1-Ballistic vests will not protect anyone from a .223cal round as was used in W.Webster

2-Vests serve zero protection from an explosive,and dosen't help with projectiles such as the case in Boston.

3-If there's a need for EMS to wear vests,because of the dangers of the job,than the EMS providers shouldn't be in any area until PD deems it safe.

4-EMS uniforms,are looking like more PD uniform's,especially with all the stitching and back panels,which is not a good idea,and can be unsafe.I have seen people walk up to them on Job's thinking they were the PD. NOT GOOD....

While I'm all for protection of everyone on a scene,I think EMS wearing PPE on calls especially MVA's is probably money better spent,I can telll you from over 30 years on the Job,a vest is not the answer to the problem,bottomline,if it isn't safe,you shouldn't be there.

So,I'm not sure of the justification for buying the vests???

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Why I try only comment on Police issues,there is a few things that need to addressed here:

1-Ballistic vests will not protect anyone from a .223cal round as was used in W.Webster

2-Vests serve zero protection from an explosive,and dosen't help with projectiles such as the case in Boston.

3-If there's a need for EMS to wear vests,because of the dangers of the job,than the EMS providers shouldn't be in any area until PD deems it safe.

4-EMS uniforms,are looking like more PD uniform's,especially with all the stitching and back panels,which is not a good idea,and can be unsafe.I have seen people walk up to them on Job's thinking they were the PD. NOT GOOD....

While I'm all for protection of everyone on a scene,I think EMS wearing PPE on calls especially MVA's is probably money better spent,I can telll you from over 30 years on the Job,a vest is not the answer to the problem,bottomline,if it isn't safe,you shouldn't be there.

So,I'm not sure of the justification for buying the vests???

You sir hit the nail on the head.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Vests must be fitted to the user. Too big, and you can not sit down without the vest riding up and hitting you in the chin, too small and it will leave gaps on the sides and vital areas. Also most vests are guaranteed for only 5 years by their manufacturers, however some departments can not afford to replace them when the hit that time limit. The NYPD gives its officers one vest, that's it, there is no spare to use if you clean it, or it is sweating from working during the summer. You want to replace it, save up your money (which if you use the uniform allowance money, it will take two years, without spending any money on any uniform items. We get $1000 a year lumped into the first paycheck in December, and it is taxed so you end up with just less than $%600). Vests also lose effectiveness when they get wet. You can not launder the ballistic insert, only the carrier. The insert is usually recommended to be clean with a damp cloth., so if multiple people are going to share them, its going to get disgusting quickly. Most vests also provide very little to no protection against bladed weapons, i.e. knives, daggers, etc and nothing against explosive devices. Rifle rounds and high powered handgun rounds will penetrate most vests on the market

I also disagree that law enforcement is better than anyone else. We are held to a higher standard than anyone else. Get arrested for a domestic incident, and convicted you are fired (federal law about domestics and gun ownership).

If the scene is not safe you do not enter...first thing they teach in EMT class.

Edited May 2, 2013 by grumpyff

[ndpemt519 10]

So all of you saying "EMS shouldn't be there if the scene is not safe", does that mean that in all these recent incidents of death of FD/EMS responders, that the responders knew the scene wasn't safe prior to entering? NO. We never know for sure when the scene is safe. We can THINK it is safe, but ultimately, people can and will do crazy/stupid things at any time. A police officer standing in a room is not going to stop a nut from pulling a gun on us if that is what said person is determined to do. Look at the triple homicide in the city of Newburgh not even two days ago. EMS was on scene after PD declared it "secure" for them to come in and assess the patients. However, the shooter STILL isn't in custody. Nobody knows where he/she is, and nobody knew where he/she was when EMS was on that scene. Not sure how that scene was "secure". Nothing against any agency involved, this is just one example of how a "secure" scene is not in fact "secure". If this dept has one life saved because of their purchase of vests, it is more than worth the cost. But if they didn't buy it and someone gets shot, we'd all be sitting here saying "Well they should've had vests!". Seems like people always need something to complain about in this business....

Edited May 3, 2013 by ndpemt519

[medic84r4ny 2]

Perhaps responders should be more concerned about driving and the use of lights sirens.

[v85 212]

I agree that EMS should have vests. In the Georgia incident where five firefighters were taken hostage, they were responding to a general illness call and the suspect was sitting in a chair.

How could anyone have known that scene wasn't safe until it turned bad? Or are people suggesting we send police in first on every EMS/Fire call (good luck with that you would need to hire many more police officers at a prohibitive cost). In fact, if someone was that intent on harming EMS, they would act okay in front of the cops, wait for the scene to be called secure, then pull out the gun.

Off topic, but properly sized vests are important. When I was an NYPD Auxiliary I frequently had to wear a vest that looked like it was sized for a 12 year old (I came into auxiliary just after they stopped giving individual vests, when I got there I was told they only had female individual vests left)

[JM15 386]

Didn't FDNY EMS issue vests to their members? Can someone confirm?

[firemoose827 324]

Why I try only comment on Police issues,there is a few things that need to addressed here:

1-Ballistic vests will not protect anyone from a .223cal round as was used in W.Webster

2-Vests serve zero protection from an explosive,and dosen't help with projectiles such as the case in Boston.

3-If there's a need for EMS to wear vests,because of the dangers of the job,than the EMS providers shouldn't be in any area until PD deems it safe.

4-EMS uniforms,are looking like more PD uniform's,especially with all the stitching and back panels,which is not a good idea,and can be unsafe.I have seen people walk up to them on Job's thinking they were the PD. NOT GOOD....

While I'm all for protection of everyone on a scene,I think EMS wearing PPE on calls especially MVA's is probably money better spent,I can telll you from over 30 years on the Job,a vest is not the answer to the problem,bottomline,if it isn't safe,you shouldn't be there.

So,I'm not sure of the justification for buying the vests???

Vests must be fitted to the user. Too big, and you can not sit down without the vest riding up and hitting you in the chin, too small and it will leave gaps on the sides and vital areas. Also most vests are guaranteed for only 5 years by their manufacturers, however some departments can not afford to replace them when the hit that time limit. The NYPD gives its officers one vest, that's it, there is no spare to use if you clean it, or it is sweating from working during the summer. You want to replace it, save up your money (which if you use the uniform allowance money, it will take two years, without spending any money on any uniform items. We get $1000 a year lumped into the first paycheck in December, and it is taxed so you end up with just less than $%600). Vests also lose effectiveness when they get wet. You can not launder the ballistic insert, only the carrier. The insert is usually recommended to be clean with a damp cloth., so if multiple people are going to share them, its going to get disgusting quickly. Most vests also provide very little to no protection against bladed weapons, i.e. knives, daggers, etc and nothing against explosive devices. Rifle rounds and high powered handgun rounds will penetrate most vests on the market

I also disagree that law enforcement is better than anyone else. We are held to a higher standard than anyone else. Get arrested for a domestic incident, and convicted you are fired (federal law about domestics and gun ownership).

If the scene is not safe you do not enter...first thing they teach in EMT class.

So all of you saying "EMS shouldn't be there if the scene is not safe", does that mean that in all these recent incidents of death of FD/EMS responders, that the responders knew the scene wasn't safe prior to entering? NO. We never know for sure when the scene is safe. We can THINK it is safe, but ultimately, people can and will do crazy/stupid things at any time. A police officer standing in a room is not going to stop a nut from pulling a gun on us if that is what said person is determined to do. Look at the triple homicide in the city of Newburgh not even two days ago. EMS was on scene after PD declared it "secure" for them to come in and assess the patients. However, the shooter STILL isn't in custody. Nobody knows where he/she is, and nobody knew where he/she was when EMS was on that scene. Not sure how that scene was "secure". Nothing against any agency involved, this is just one example of how a "secure" scene is not in fact "secure". If this dept has one life saved because of their purchase of vests, it is more than worth the cost. But if they didn't buy it and someone gets shot, we'd all be sitting here saying "Well they should've had vests!". Seems like people always need something to complain about in this business....

ndpemt519 said it the best, and you beat me to the draw.

For anyone that thinks they know for sure if a scene is safe or not...shame on you. I was taught in EMT that any scene can turn south quickly and to always be looking and aware of your surroundings, if you see anything out of place or odd, back out and call for help. What some of you guys are forgetting here is, when most of us EMS are dispatched to an EMS run, we dont have PD responding with us. Will the dispatch in my area send PD for a cardiac run?? Hell no, why waste them or take them out of service for that? Then you get on scene and find out (some times too late) that the cardiac event is happening because of a domestic (which the caller conveniently forgets to tell 911) and there are weapons involved...what then?? I understand that a vest will not stop every bullet of every gun, but they will stop most bullets or at least prevent the bullets from doing major harm to you, right? (serious question please) Lets look at this issue that someone brought up; vests will not stop all bullets so why even justify buying them and equipping them??? Well, our turnout gear will not stop the fire from burning you and you can still get burned, so why do we bother buying that? Bottom line, if that vest will stop one bullet from entering my body and taking my life, MONEY WELL SPENT. If that vest allows us to escape the scene and wait for PD to arrive to assist us and saves our lives, MONEY WELL SPENT.

Also, another serious question for any PD officer; a vest will stop a bullet, but not a knife? Can someone explain that please? I understand there are ballistic plates that are held in pockets within the carrier (vest) and that the knife could find a gap and penetrate still, but there is also the chance the knife can catch one of the ballistic plates and not penetrate, correct? That to me is worth the costs if it allows one EMT to deflect a knife blow and retreat from the scene.

There are always too many people being negative about things and offering too many "what ifs" when the bottom line should be our safety. If one device can save one life, isnt it worth it?

Maybe a vest couldnt have saved the brothers from the christmas eve fire, but the next incident?? Maybe the next shooter can only afford a .22 rifle, can a vest stop those?

To me, if you have the funds to do so and you want to provide a protective garment for your crews to offer that much more of a chance of survival, more power to them. Especially in my area where there are only one full time village police department, and the rest of the county is covered by either state police or sherrifs officers who are spread out thin and sometimes have extended response times to our EMS scenes. If we know ahead of time the scene is a violent one then we dont even leave our station until a PD unit is on scene, then we stage in the nearest intersection until the PD calls for us, but there are other calls where you are just not thinking about someone pulling a gun on you and that one time where the vest can save your life.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Here is a pretty good link that explains the different levels of vets protection and why it will stop a bullet, but not a knife.

http://www.safeguardarmor.com/body-armor-levels/

They do sell ballistic inserts for the vests that can defeat knifes, but they are niot that large, and mostly cover teh center of the chest, not the entire coverage area of the vest.

I am not totally against EMS wearing vest, but I often get the impression that "we need these, so lets buy a couple and put them on every rig." If you are going to do it, do it right. Have the vest professionally sized, and purchased for each member that rides. Assign it to only that person. No sharing. Make them wear it every call, regardless if grandma fell and broke her hip, inter hospital transports, or it is an assault call with weapons involved. We do not share turnout gear or stethoscopes do we?. It will do you no good sitting in a compartment of an ambulance when the fecal matter hits the fan. YOU WILL NOT HAVE TIME TO PUT IT ON THEN.

I also find it funny that the quieter suburban and rural areas always seem to push for this, when the guys running around the busy urban areas, who often have vest assigned to them and it never leaves their locker in the station. The argument that our PD doesn't get dispatched to our EMS runs is the same in both. Yes, the NYPD will be dispatched to a lot of the aided calls, but when they are short handed, or extremely busy, the PD is not going to get there until everything is over most times. Is there really a need for the vests, or is this a "this is the latest greatest thing, we need to be the best" nonsense that wastes tons or resources to never be used.

Edited May 3, 2013 by grumpyff

[RES24CUE 168]

It sounds like a great solution to this conundrum is a system like Greenburgh, where the ambulances are operated by the police dept and the EMTs are police officers. If scene safety prior to EMS arrival is the first priority, then why not combine the two so that the people responsible for securing the scene are also the ones that will provide care. Police officers could take turns riding shifts in a patrol car and shifts on the bus. Then the EMTs will already have guns and vests so there would be no more need to argue over who is entitled to what!

Plus this would leave a great system of coverage for busy nights. If the ambulances are slow and the police are busy, send the officers on the bus to assist on a police call. If the ambulances are busy and the police are slow, send a patrol unit to secure the scene and start patient care until an outside ambulance can make it to the scene.

[LFD34 12]

Does this mean that Firefighters who serve as first responders should also get vests. If so would they have to wear as part of station apparrel and then suffer the extra weight and heat caused during firefighting operations, or would this have to be donned strictly for medical calls.

While I believe that we need to issue appropriate safety equipment to properly ensure the best protection for our personnel, we also need to ensure that this equipment does not cause other unintended consequences.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Plus this would leave a great system of coverage for busy nights. If the ambulances are slow and the police are busy, send the officers on the bus to assist on a police call. If the ambulances are busy and the police are slow, send a patrol unit to secure the scene and start patient care until an outside ambulance can make it to the scene.

Yes but the biggest complaint I have seen/heard is when the police side is busy and grandma has a stroke, she got a substandard response. I saw many times under that system an ALS pt in the back with the medic/cop driving and watching the monitor from the front seat with no one in the back. I know that much (all?) of that is gone with the advent of the civilian EMS positions, but that defeats your entire justification.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Can anyone comment of the actual frequency of EMS (and/or Fire) personnel being involved in a violent encounter as compared to the average citizen? Should we be better protected than those we serve and whom pay for our services? I understand that in general LEO's have much greater risk of violent encounter, but in the end do EMS or fire personnel see a significant risk increase of violence?

I have a general bone to pick with EMS in that we tend to be truly risk averse, continually stressing scene safety (on it's own not a bad thing). The problem with stressing something to the Nth degree is that it moves it higher in the priority list. We've certainly seen EMS put an emphasis on "ourselves" before all others" by making scene safety and BSI the first thing every EMT must state on nearly every practical exam station. The issue is that EMS is not without risk. Any job where you need to routinely put on BSI equipment inherently involves a greater risk than that of the common worker. EMS puts their responders health and safety first, yet we have lights and sirens on the vehicles and kill an injure far more EMS personnel in accidents than other duty causes. I do not advocate running into anything headlong, but we as trained and often paid medical personnel must weigh our safety against the health of the patient in a standard rick-benefit model before making decisions. We do this everyday when we choose whether or not to activate our lights and sirens, why wouldn't we do the same for scene safety?

Maybe I'm just ticked off after having my medical crew told to stage for PD for a Klonopin overdose call last shift. When the dispatcher was asked why we were told to stage she answered that she couldn't tell what was happening because the pt. was not alert and the caller was not the pt.? No threats, no domestic, just an assumption of suicide (not homicide). Nonetheless the pt. was truly in bad shape and thankfully there was no delay of care due to our upgrading the units response. In our case, we want our dispatchers to give us all the information they have for us to make an informed decision.

[v85 212]

Part of the problem in that kind of incident comes from dispatchers who have no experience in field emergency services or who are required to blindly follow protocol.

In one agency outside of NYS that I have knowledge of, any overdose automatically had PD added, but the decision to stage or go in was left with the LT. or CAPT. on the apparatus, not the dispatcher. Most of the time if the caller said the patient was non violent and especially if they were unconsious or CPR in progress they didn't stage

[Bnechis 3,961]

Can anyone comment of the actual frequency of EMS (and/or Fire) personnel being involved in a violent encounter as compared to the average citizen? Should we be better protected than those we serve and whom pay for our services? I understand that in general LEO's have much greater risk of violent encounter, but in the end do EMS or fire personnel see a significant risk increase of violence?

You bring up a number of good points.

I do not know if their are actual statistics on this, but I do know my own experiences. At 1st was thinking that outside of emergency services I have not experienced violence directed at me, but after thinking about it I realize that I have had 2 experiences, both while traveling.One was in San Francisco where a drug adict pull a knife on my wife and myself and demanded money. Now I say knife, but it was much closer to a nail clipper (the blade was about 2") I hit him in the face and we walked away (he kept saying "why did you hit me" ....I told him because he asked me too). The 2nd one was I got into a little wresling match with a pickpocket on the Paris Metro.

Now in emergency services I have worked areas were we would find bullet holes in the EMS station (some from inside, most from outside), have been shot at, have had guns and other weapons flashed around us, was baricaded with ESU in an apt. while the pts family and there gang were rioting trying to get the rivel gang for hurting my patient. Had my amb. broken into while treating a pt and threatened with being shot if I continued to treat them. And one of my favorate was being told by PD: "we have a shooter on the roof, I'll cover you while you go out into the court yard and drag the 2 victims to cover". I asked if he would give me his vest?. As a side note, I met my wife on that call

Now I was originally thinking that while the violent calls were generally in areas I would not consider going into if I was not working, we all know that violence can happen anywhere, but I always felt that this was a big consideration, until I had an incident in a building I would never have expectedit to be in, on a "man having a stroke" (called in by thepts wife). As we banged on the door and yelled Fire Dept. the neighbor came out of her apt and said he has had a stroke before. So we forced entry (actually my nozzleman was a locksmith and he picked the lock faster than Icouldopen it with a key). While searching for the patient, he poped out of the bathroom, 38 in his hand and pointed it at me from about 2 feet away. I yelled "GUN"! and started backing out. He said: "what are you doing in my apartment"? I said: "Leaving". Its a bad feeling to have a line of responders between you and the door (cop, EMT, Medic, Nozzleman, then me) and as I exited all I could see was the cop running AWAY from the apt. Turns out he had a history of a stroke. He also had a history of being a cop that was fired from our PD. A tactical team was able to remove him without incident.

So can it happen anywhere.....Sure. But in my experience its rare and I know there are a lot of other hazards we face that responders are unequipped and/or untrained to protect ourselves during that are the bigger risk.

[CFFD117 19]

Didn't FDNY EMS issue vests to their members? Can someone confirm?

Yes FDNY EMS issued vests to their members. its personal preference whether or not you want to wear them though. Mine usually lives in the car while I'm on my regular tours, and most people don't wear them. They mostly come out more for the special event type stuff, eg the West Indian Day Parade, New Years Eve etc. There are a few people who wear them all the time though. There are a few cases where I think the vests could give a false sense of security, enabling people to get into situations where they may have backed off if they diddnt have a vest (the same could be said in the argument for arming ems providers), but there is no way everyone is going to wear a vest unless it comes down from the top and is put in the ops guide. A huge part of the way we operate on scene depends on our ability or read people, and instincts if something doesn't feel right. And most of the time we are good at using our judgement, but sometimes stuff happens and incidents like what happened in Georgia take place. Not being there personally I can say what happened, but I think we tend to get complacent when it comes to calls that get dispatched as "sick" jobs. I cant count how many I went to in the past week. Most of the time its nothing, but occasionally its something like a stroke or an arrest. Or it could be someone with malicious intent as in West Webster or Georgia. I get enough people calling me officer without body armor, to the point where with a vest I think patients might be hesitant towards giving honest information. I don't think wearing a vest all the time is really a solution for these very low frequency events. A vest is no substitute for using your own judgement/ instincts in determining whether or not your scene is safe enough for you to operate in.

[JM15 386]

Yes FDNY EMS issued vests to their members. its personal preference whether or not you want to wear them though. Mine usually lives in the car while I'm on my regular tours, and most people don't wear them. They mostly come out more for the special event type stuff, eg the West Indian Day Parade, New Years Eve etc. There are a few people who wear them all the time though. There are a few cases where I think the vests could give a false sense of security, enabling people to get into situations where they may have backed off if they diddnt have a vest (the same could be said in the argument for arming ems providers), but there is no way everyone is going to wear a vest unless it comes down from the top and is put in the ops guide. A huge part of the way we operate on scene depends on our ability or read people, and instincts if something doesn't feel right. And most of the time we are good at using our judgement, but sometimes stuff happens and incidents like what happened in Georgia take place. Not being there personally I can say what happened, but I think we tend to get complacent when it comes to calls that get dispatched as "sick" jobs. I cant count how many I went to in the past week. Most of the time its nothing, but occasionally its something like a stroke or an arrest. Or it could be someone with malicious intent as in West Webster or Georgia. I get enough people calling me officer without body armor, to the point where with a vest I think patients might be hesitant towards giving honest information. I don't think wearing a vest all the time is really a solution for these very low frequency events. A vest is no substitute for using your own judgement/ instincts in determining whether or not your scene is safe enough for you to operate in.

Thanks for the clarification and an awesome post! Wish I could like that more than once....

[RES24CUE 168]

Yes but the biggest complaint I have seen/heard is when the police side is busy and grandma has a stroke, she got a substandard response. I saw many times under that system an ALS pt in the back with the medic/cop driving and watching the monitor from the front seat with no one in the back. I know that much (all?) of that is gone with the advent of the civilian EMS positions, but that defeats your entire justification.

Sounds like a staffing problem not a problem with the system. The problem isn't with police department EMTs...its that their aren't enough of them!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sounds like a staffing problem not a problem with the system. The problem isn't with police department EMTs...its that their aren't enough of them!

You are correct. The cheapest way to fix it was to hire civilian medics, because it appears that police/medics are not cost effective.

[firemoose827 324]

You bring up a number of good points.

I do not know if their are actual statistics on this, but I do know my own experiences. At 1st was thinking that outside of emergency services I have not experienced violence directed at me, but after thinking about it I realize that I have had 2 experiences, both while traveling.One was in San Francisco where a drug adict pull a knife on my wife and myself and demanded money. Now I say knife, but it was much closer to a nail clipper (the blade was about 2") I hit him in the face and we walked away (he kept saying "why did you hit me" ....I told him because he asked me too). The 2nd one was I got into a little wresling match with a pickpocket on the Paris Metro.

Now in emergency services I have worked areas were we would find bullet holes in the EMS station (some from inside, most from outside), have been shot at, have had guns and other weapons flashed around us, was baricaded with ESU in an apt. while the pts family and there gang were rioting trying to get the rivel gang for hurting my patient. Had my amb. broken into while treating a pt and threatened with being shot if I continued to treat them. And one of my favorate was being told by PD: "we have a shooter on the roof, I'll cover you while you go out into the court yard and drag the 2 victims to cover". I asked if he would give me his vest?. As a side note, I met my wife on that call

Now I was originally thinking that while the violent calls were generally in areas I would not consider going into if I was not working, we all know that violence can happen anywhere, but I always felt that this was a big consideration, until I had an incident in a building I would never have expectedit to be in, on a "man having a stroke" (called in by thepts wife). As we banged on the door and yelled Fire Dept. the neighbor came out of her apt and said he has had a stroke before. So we forced entry (actually my nozzleman was a locksmith and he picked the lock faster than Icouldopen it with a key). While searching for the patient, he poped out of the bathroom, 38 in his hand and pointed it at me from about 2 feet away. I yelled "GUN"! and started backing out. He said: "what are you doing in my apartment"? I said: "Leaving". Its a bad feeling to have a line of responders between you and the door (cop, EMT, Medic, Nozzleman, then me) and as I exited all I could see was the cop running AWAY from the apt. Turns out he had a history of a stroke. He also had a history of being a cop that was fired from our PD. A tactical team was able to remove him without incident.

So can it happen anywhere.....Sure. But in my experience its rare and I know there are a lot of other hazards we face that responders are unequipped and/or untrained to protect ourselves during that are the bigger risk.

I had one call, for chest pain. It was mutual aid to the neighboring county for one of their "frequent flyers" (unknown to us of course)

I was EMT-Captain at the time and had a crew of 2 other EMT's and a driver. We arrived on scene, there was 2 state troopers cars in the driveway, they were in talking to the patient who was seated at kitchen table looking like he was gasping for breath. The 2 EMT's with me started to evaluate, I was standing with the driver near the entrance talking with troopers. My driver started to hiss at me to get my attention, when I looked over he pointed down at a double-headed axe lying on the floor in front of a broken porch window...just as I started to point it out to the troopers the guy got up and started to look around. When asked what for, he stated calmly like he was telling us the weather that he was looking for his gun. I ushered my crew out to the rig and the troopers handled him, got him out to the stretcher and one of them rode along with us to theER. He told me his mother recently died in the house and that she talked to him...he couldnt stand talking to his dead mother anymore...

Several months later, on Superbowl Sunday no less, he set fire to his house and was found in the garage across the street (right where we parked the first due engine) with a shotgun across his lapp waiting for the FD to arrive so he could "scare us off to let the F'er burn"...I was on that first due engine and could have been shot, but we knew ahead of time what we were dealing with and the troopers and sherrifs both responded ahead of us that night and found him just as we were pulling up and were leading him off with cuffs.

Another time we were called for an "Unknown Medical" and arrived on scene to find a guy on the floor with half of his head shot off still gripping the rifle he used with a note. The note basically said he was tired of the world and wanted to go but couldnt do it on his own so he was going to shoot at the first responders to get shot by the cops...luckily for us his concious took over and he couldnt shoot at us and took his own life...we worked him because he still had a pulse and was looking at us but he didnt make it obviously...

It does and can happen anywhere, not just the big city. It makes me sick to read the posts stating that it is not necessary for the small rural areas to wear vests when some of the bigger city agencies that issue vests leave them in the locker...is it our fault some providers dont care to wear PPE issued them??? If they dont want to wear it its their lives not mine, and if I am issued one you dam well better believe it will be donned everytime I go on a call because its my choice. Just like its my choice to wear SCBA to all fires, or full PPE to all brush fires, or the chin strap of my helmet instead of wearing it around the brim like other cool firefighters that think its not needed or takes too much time to put on. Everyone has the right to wear whatever protection they have or can afford to buy. It also makes me concerned to read posts from respected members who are seen posting in other threads about the importance of wearing ALL of your PPE because our sfafety is the primary concern, yet think wearing vests is a waste of time and taxpayers money. From what I just googled for the past 10 minutes about bullet proof vests, they make them lightweight and breathable nowadays, so I see no reason to believe the posters talking about "extra weight and heat from wearing them" . Some models I read about are so small and lightweight its like wearing a sweater (or so the ad says, again, I know nothing about vests or getting shot at for that matter but I am just repeating what I read in the sales pitches) As far as EMS wearing them, I would. Firefighting...Im not sure about how that would work under the Turnouts, and if the vest affects your mobility or what the vest would do if you were crawling on the floor and what not.

Sorry for the rant, I just believe everyone should have the right to wear it if they want to, regardless of what area you live in or how busy your agency is and should be personal preference.

Stay safe.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I'm not an EMT and I really don't have a dog in this body armor fight, but the whole "the scene should be safe before EMS is on scene" argument, while valid, isn't ALWAYS a fair assessment. Fecal material is known to occur from time to time.

Its very easy for a scene that appears, at face value, to be safe, to go sideways. A perfect example is the call in Gwinnett County a few weeks ago when the Engine and Medic crew were held hostage. As I understand it, there was no reason to believe that scene was unsafe before they made entry on the medical. They were set up. Cops know that a BS routine call can very easily be an organized ambush on an Officer. The reality is that nowadays, the same thing can easily be done to EMS or FD units. So unless we're going to have the PD clear every scene before we get there, No, the vest would have done nothing to protect the ambushed Firefighters in Webster, but only a tiny percentage of shootings occur with AR-15 or AK style long guns.

Do I think that necessarily justifies purchasing vests for an entire department? Tough call, its probably not necessary for most EMTs, but I'm not the one responsible for that decision on behalf of an entire department.

But I have noticed an increase in the number of EMTs/Medics ordering vests at my part-time uniform sales job. I don't do body armor, so again, no dog in the fight, I'm just stating the facts.

[grumpyff 1,159]

It does not have to be an AK or AR style rifle to defeat a vest. Any hunting rifle, weather it is a bolt action or a semi automatic rifle, it will defeat a bullet resistant vest. It is the size and speed of the ammo. Lets be fair, in the rural area you are more likely to encounter rifles and shotguns than handguns as more people hunt. The vests that stop these rounds are too bulky and restrictive to wear all the time. Urban areas are more likely to encounter handguns (legal or not) which, a vest would have a chance to stop, again dependent on the size and speed of the ammunition being fired at it.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

It does not have to be an AK or AR style rifle to defeat a vest. Any hunting rifle, weather it is a bolt action or a semi automatic rifle, it will defeat a bullet resistant vest. It is the size and speed of the ammo. Lets be fair, in the rural area you are more likely to encounter rifles and shotguns than handguns as more people hunt. The vests that stop these rounds are too bulky and restrictive to wear all the time. Urban areas are more likely to encounter handguns (legal or not) which, a vest would have a chance to stop, again dependent on the size and speed of the ammunition being fired at it.

But by that logic doesn't that mean Police Officers in rural areas shouldn't be wearing vests that aren't Level III or have III/IV plates?

The point I'm trying to make is that its not unreasonable that an EMT could get into a situation that takes a turn for the worse.

[okcomputer 12]

This has been a topic of discussion before the bombing. Don't plan on any politicians footing the bill though (ask Hilary or Barack about procuring vests for troops during OIF). I'm all for it. Your safety before anyone else's and certain vests are great against knives and other weapons.

Now it doesn't mean you have to wear it to every call. But if they are kept at the ems hq and taken on the ambulances as needed they could be helpful.

[grumpyff 1,159]

This has been a topic of discussion before the bombing. Don't plan on any politicians footing the bill though (ask Hilary or Barack about procuring vests for troops during OIF). I'm all for it. Your safety before anyone else's and certain vests are great against knives and other weapons.

Now it doesn't mean you have to wear it to every call. But if they are kept at the ems hq and taken on the ambulances as needed they could be helpful.

Then why bother getting vest, to keep it for certain calls. Guaranteed to be useless then. The calls where fire/EMS were ambushed were called in as regular everyday calls. Most of the ambush calls, a regular bullet resistant best would have done nothing to protect the crews, either due to the size of the weapon being used, or the close proximity.

At close range a vest may stop a round, but the shooter, if intent to kill people, has a greater chance to hit vital unprotected areas of the body.

A level III best will not stop a rifle round, unless you add additional armor plating to it, which adds weight, retains heat and moisture (sweat). As for the vests that advertise as lighter weight, or more flexible, I and personally more questioning of their claims. There was one vest a few years ago that had to recalled when it was found the fibers were degrading faster than designed, offering less protection

[grumpyff 1,159]

This has been a topic of discussion before the bombing. Don't plan on any politicians footing the bill though (ask Hilary or Barack about procuring vests for troops during OIF). I'm all for it. Your safety before anyone else's and certain vests are great against knives and other weapons.

Now it doesn't mean you have to wear it to every call. But if they are kept at the ems hq and taken on the ambulances as needed they could be helpful.

Then why bother getting vest, to keep it for certain calls. Guaranteed to be useless then. The calls where fire/EMS were ambushed were called in as regular everyday calls. Most of the ambush calls, a regular bullet resistant best would have done nothing to protect the crews, either due to the size of the weapon being used, or the close proximity.

At close range a vest may stop a round, but the shooter, if intent to kill people, has a greater chance to hit vital unprotected areas of the body.

A level III best will not stop a rifle round, unless you add additional armor plating to it, which adds weight, retains heat and moisture (sweat). As for the vests that advertise as lighter weight, or more flexible, I am personally more questioning of their claims. There was one vest a few years ago that had to recalled when it was found the fibers were degrading faster than designed, offering less protection

Edited May 7, 2013 by grumpyff

[firemoose827 324]

This has been a topic of discussion before the bombing. Don't plan on any politicians footing the bill though (ask Hilary or Barack about procuring vests for troops during OIF). I'm all for it. Your safety before anyone else's and certain vests are great against knives and other weapons.

Now it doesn't mean you have to wear it to every call. But if they are kept at the ems hq and taken on the ambulances as needed they could be helpful.

I respectfully agree and disagree with you here; agree that we all need a vest, disagree on picking and choosing which calls to wear it.

In my career EMS job that I worked for 16 years, if I were issued one i would wear it under my uniform shirt every shift for every call.

Like mentioned so many times in so many ways, you never know ahead of time when you will be in a tough situation, other then those calls dispatched as "Domestic Violence" or "Possible Suicide" or "Police Action Call", you dont know ahead of time when to wear it or not. Many of my routine medical calls such as chest pain and possible strokes unded up being violent scenes with agitated people wanting to hurt someone, i was just lucky enough to live in an area where most of them could not afford to buy food let alone a hand gun or rifle, and just ended up with punches or kicks thrown at me and the scenes turning into WWE matches instead of EMS scenes.