Volunteer group in Texas moves to ban mandatory training

[newsbuff 286]

The State Firemen's and Fire Marshal's Association of Texas is the first major fire service organization I am aware of to come out in favor of a ban on mandatory training. Yes. The largest fire service group in Texas (I'll confide to you that this is a volunteer firefighters' group, at least unofficially). They are pushing SB 766, the so-called Volunteer Firefighters Protection Bill. It would explicitly bar any state agency from requiring training of volunteer firefighters. In the SFFMA's words, "it has become increasingly difficult to recruit people to volunteer to protect their communities and those who do should not have to ask Austin bureaucrats for permission first!" Well then.

http://firegeezer.com/2013/04/22/should-fire-training-be-banned-a-commentary/

Now I understand that this is a commentary article, and the SFFMA is not officially a volunteer lobby group like FASNY, but if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck....

I think this right here is the stem of so many career-volunteer battles that it is unfortunate. From the bill:

Sec. 180.008. LICENSE OR CERTIFICATION NOT REQUIRED FOR VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER. A political subdivision may not require a volunteer firefighter to obtain a license or certification in order to be a volunteer firefighter.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/SB00766I.htm

Now anyone with a pulse, and NO formal training can just BE a firefighter? Seems a little asinine.

Edited April 23, 2013 by newsbuff

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Fair warning: I'm going on a bit of a rant here.

The sad fact is that many rural communities follow that exact model. The only way they get away with it is because call volume is so low that statistics will very rarely catch up to them.

I personally think this is selfish, there is a standard and it should be upheld. But the general mindset that guides this kind of thing isn't exclusive to volunteers. Many firefighters, career and volunteer, believe that because they're considered the "experts" in the field, that they shouldn't have to respond to the will of their customers (within reason). That's crap. "ITS NOT ABOUT YOU" is the phrase that comes to mind, and maybe it should be painted on the inside of every apparatus bay door in the country. The residents of a community are put at ease believing they have a fire department that is trained to do the job. Maybe its not a career department, because the town hasn't determined it needs/can afford that level of protection, but they expect the personnel that do respond to be adequately trained to complete the tasks they're assigned.

Here's an idea: Lets pass a law saying if your fire department doesn't follow minimum accredited training standards, you're required to call the organization "Bucket Brigade" or "Cellar Savers." Just a little truth in advertising.

You want the title? Earn it. Show that you're proud of what it means and that you're willing to go the extra mile to help your community. Don't take a cop-out route like this. This kind of thing is an insult to those of us who are proud to be volunteer Firefighters.

[x635 4,066]

This is more of a pissing contests as to who regulates who then it is a training issue. Also note the Texas legislature only meets for a couple of months once every two years, so it's likely this bill will be tabled and hopefully something will get smoothed out.

You can read the coverage of this issue on "The Friday Report", the weekly online newletter for Texas Fire Chiefs for some more perspective:

http://tfca.officialbuyersguide.net/newsletter/?year=2013

[RES24CUE 168]

The backbone of the volunteer fire service rests in training. It must be kept in mind that volunteer fire departments are "professionally staffed by volunteers" and must provide the same services as any career department (in many cases to a higher standard as to disprove the notion that they are "just volunteers"). This is why the volunteer fire department of which I am a member has a mandatory Firefighter 1 requirement within 6 months of becoming a member and a very aggressive weekly in-house training program. Amateurs train until they get something right, professionals train until they can't get it wrong. At 2 am, in the cold and snow, with mutual aid minutes away, duties must be performed perfectly. Firefighters, career or volunteer, must train hard to get to this level.

[BCFire05 83]

Being from Texas myself and a Volunteer for almost 10 years now, I hope this gets shelved. Our Fire dept has done A LOT of work over the past many years to get our training in compliance with SFFMA standards. Not because we had to, but because we wanted to. We constantly promote annual and weekend schools at TEEX or anything held locally. I agree with Seth in regards to it boiling down to who regulates it. Personally I like what SFFMA has set up. We have a great working relationship with SFFMA and they helped greatly back in 2006 when we needed to overhaul our training. I do for one know there are sadly many vollies out here who think they can join a dept and think they are a fire fighter without training. I do believe that volunteers need to meet a certain standard in training. Does it have to be on par with professional? Not really, but a standard regardless. I have my professional certain, I've been around paid and vol. depts for quite a while and I know some vol guys who've never been paid and could run circles around a professional with their experience, but they are the ones who took that time to learn and do it right. We live in a world where not every fire dept can be paid. Volunteers will always have my support. But I'd expect them to have a minimal standard of training.

[firemoose827 324]

Great...do me a favor and dont let my county see this BS.

We FINALY started to have a decent training program in my county with a small group of dedicated and talented instructors, and a new training tower. We have Firefighter 1 offered twice a year so there is no excuse to not have it, and our department is the same way requiring every member to obtain firefighter 1 within 6 months of joining (or as soon as it is offered if longer than 6 month period). Our department also requires you to have fire police training so if you end up directing traffic at an MVA you know what you are supposed to do. We require all drivers to have EVOC and Pump Ops. But I still feel that is not enough.

Now this is happening in Texas?? How soon until it trickles over to NY??

To me, if you want to fight fires and respond to emergencies such as MVA's and Haz-Mat Spills and rescue calls you need to know what you are doing. There are too many wahoos out there that think turnout gear is like Batmans outfit, once you don it your a super hero...

I respect the fire service, I respect the brotherhood and I respect training and those that have training, not having enough training shows disrespect to the fire service and all of the greats that paved the way for us and passed on what they learned the hard way paying blood sweat and tears. I for one will continue to honor those firefighters and continue to train and learn something new everyday.

Just remember...not all of the volunteers are careless, disrespectful, dangerous and unprofessional.

Stay Safe.

[JM15 386]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but here in NY we dont have a minimum level of training that is required of volunteers. It all comes back to that term "Authority Having Jurisdiction." In most cases the Board of Fire Commissioners or equivalent have the sole authority to deem whatever they feel necessary. OFPC has a "reccomended" minimum that is a guideline for the AHJ to follow up it isn't law.

[ex-commish 490]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but here in NY we dont have a minimum level of training that is required of volunteers. It all comes back to that term "Authority Having Jurisdiction." In most cases the Board of Fire Commissioners or equivalent have the sole authority to deem whatever they feel necessary. OFPC has a "reccomended" minimum that is a guideline for the AHJ to follow up it isn't law.

JM you are correct however there are NFPA standards out there that lay out a minimum level of training necessary and OSHA also says you must be trained to the level of what you are expected to preform.

[JM15 386]

You are correct. 29 CFR 1910.156 Section C outlines the training requirements for FD's and specifically mentions OFPC as an example of appropriate training. So why is this an issue in Texas? Am I missing something? Just remember NFPA and OSHA are just standards not laws, I would like to see a New York state labor law with regards to fire training such as we have with the bailout ropes, workplace violence etc.

Edited May 15, 2013 by JM15

[RES24CUE 168]

This topic really does baffle me. So many people think that just pinning a badge on their chest makes them a fireman. However, very few actually want to earn the right to wear that badge by being able to do the job WELL! Everyone wants to be a heroic fireman when they meet a hot blonde at the bar, get pulled over for driving a little too fast (or having a few too many), or when they need to be well rounded on their college application/essay. Yet, when it comes time to take a long class to get thier firefighter 1, gather at the firehouse every tuesday night for drill, come to the firehouse an extra night every other week to do their Officer's rig checklist, or come to the firehouse on a saturday morning to clean the floors, then it is suddenly a "volunteer" fire department and they can't be expected to donate so much of their precious time. Thats when they all of a sudden "remember" that they have a family and a full time job that comes first...they never seem to have those commitments on the night of a parade, a serious fire call, a monthly barbecue, or a meeting with an open bar. But, all of a sudden, when the training starts or the brooms come out, they have a wife and kids that suddenly can't be left unattended for a few hours that night.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to denounce the volunteer fire service or those that dedicate their time to helping their neightbors. I have been a volunteer for 10 years and am not a career firefighter. In that time I have taken just about every New York State training class that is offered at the Westchester County Fire Training Center and know many worthwhile volunteer firefighters who have made it their business to do the same; I would be that most of these men could give many of the career guys who b**** in these very forums, alongside the volunteers who are also bitching, a run for their money firematically.

It is unfortunate that these types of volunteers seem to be a minority these days and the "do as little as possible to meet the minimum requirement" crowd is prevailing. In my opinion, the over-and-above volunteer firefigher is the proper way to be a volunteer firefighter. The firefighter who says "how can I better serve my neighbors" instead of he who says "how can my department better serve me." As this mentality prevails, and the former is overtaken by the latter, the tradition that is the volunteer fire service will surely fade into the past and become something that is remembered instead of practiced.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The backbone of the volunteer fire service rests in training. It must be kept in mind that volunteer fire departments are "professionally staffed by volunteers" and must provide the same services as any career department (in many cases to a higher standard as to disprove the notion that they are "just volunteers"). This is why the volunteer fire department of which I am a member has a mandatory Firefighter 1 requirement within 6 months of becoming a member and a very aggressive weekly in-house training program. Amateurs train until they get something right, professionals train until they can't get it wrong. At 2 am, in the cold and snow, with mutual aid minutes away, duties must be performed perfectly. Firefighters, career or volunteer, must train hard to get to this level.

I agree with your general thoughts, but Before you compare your service levels with others, you may want to consider that your minimum standards in 6 months are drimatically below the level that all career firefighters in Westchester must have before they are allowed to respond to any calls.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You are correct. 29 CFR 1910.156 Section C outlines the training requirements for FD's and specifically mentions OFPC as an example of appropriate training. So why is this an issue in Texas? Am I missing something? Just remember NFPA and OSHA are just standards not laws, I would like to see a New York state labor law with regards to fire training such as we have with the bailout ropes, workplace violence etc.

All OSHA "standards" are laws. 29 Stands for "Labor" and CFR stands for "Code of Federal Regulations". Everyone of their regulations (or laws) is inforceble on non-governmental employees in all 50 states. 25 States are "plan states" and recieve federal funding to do the OSHA funding. In exchange for the funding they must agree to enforce the OSHA Laws on all "employeers". In NY, NJ & CT. they modified this and the states only enforce the regulations on governmental "employeers". The New York State Department of Labor - Public Employee Safety & Health (PESH) is the agency that is charged with enforcing these laws.

The NYS courts have long ruled that volunteer firefighters are considered "employees"of their departments because they are "covered" by workers compensation insurance (which is required by law).

The law exists the problem is PESH is streched so thin that they only show up if there is a complaint or serious injury/death.

And while NFPA "standards" are not laws. The NYS courts acknowledge them as if they were in civil litigation and in at least 1 criminal case of wrongful death.

[robert benz 344]

Being from Texas myself and a Volunteer for almost 10 years now, I hope this gets shelved. Our Fire dept has done A LOT of work over the past many years to get our training in compliance with SFFMA standards. Not because we had to, but because we wanted to. We constantly promote annual and weekend schools at TEEX or anything held locally. I agree with Seth in regards to it boiling down to who regulates it. Personally I like what SFFMA has set up. We have a great working relationship with SFFMA and they helped greatly back in 2006 when we needed to overhaul our training. I do for one know there are sadly many vollies out here who think they can join a dept and think they are a fire fighter without training. I do believe that volunteers need to meet a certain standard in training. Does it have to be on par with professional? Not really, but a standard regardless. I have my professional certain, I've been around paid and vol. depts for quite a while and I know some vol guys who've never been paid and could run circles around a professional with their experience, but they are the ones who took that time to learn and do it right. We live in a world where not every fire dept can be paid. Volunteers will always have my support. But I'd expect them to have a minimal standard of training.

training is always the issue, would you be comfortable sending your loved ones to the doctor who just meet's the minimal standard of training. Since you stated that you dont believe that volunteers should have to have the same training as pro's, what training do you suggest should get omitted?

[BCFire05 83]

training is always the issue, would you be comfortable sending your loved ones to the doctor who just meet's the minimal standard of training. Since you stated that you dont believe that volunteers should have to have the same training as pro's, what training do you suggest should get omitted?

I'm mostly attributing that to the fact that volunteers are just that, Volunteers. They are taking time out of their own lives to serve there community. I don't define minimum standards as "hey here's 2 days worth of training, congrats you're a fireman". I would expect most to gather their training over a longer period of time. I don't expect someone to wants to help their community to have full on fire training prior to joining a volunteer dept. As it is with my dept, people join with no training what so ever, but in order to make entry on a structure fire they are required to meet the minimun 71 hrs introductory level training as set by SFFMA which they gather over the course of their probationary period and a lil afterward. And their training continues afterward.

And I never stated that any training be omitted....I'm simply saying that there should be a minimum standard that should be met which could be obtained at a vol. dept during a probationary period or a period of time. Does it stop there? Hell no, training always continues, it never ends.

SFFMA's levels are Introductory, Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced. When you've reached advanced you are the equivalent of a Texas Commission on Fire Protection - Basic certified professional fire fighter.

I am a vol. I can't stand "t-shirt" fire fighters. People who join and think they can skirt by with the shirt and go "fight a fire" don't get that privilege without the proper training.

But you can't expect every volunteer to have all that training right off the bat. It can be gradual. Not every person or every vol dept can afford to send someone to the academy.

[RES24CUE 168]

I agree with your general thoughts, but Before you compare your service levels with others, you may want to consider that your minimum standards in 6 months are drimatically below the level that all career firefighters in Westchester must have before they are allowed to respond to any calls.

Yes but at what cost to the taxpayer? You can't have a bunch of career guys sitting around a firehouse that gets one call every 3-4 days and working fire once every 3-4 years. Not only would they be bored out of their minds but it isn't worth paying $10 million dollars per year in salaries and benefits so that a $300,000 house can be saved once a decade. The cost doesn't equal the savings. And I know that a life is priceless...but in many small towns, just the opportunity to make a grab may only come about once every 50 years. And who is to say that a first arriving, qualified, TRAINED volunteer wouldn't make that same grab with the same level of skill.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Or how about we all use the NFPA 1001 standard that's generally accepted by the entire country?

[helicopper 1,050]

Yes but at what cost to the taxpayer? You can't have a bunch of career guys sitting around a firehouse that gets one call every 3-4 days and working fire once every 3-4 years. Not only would they be bored out of their minds but it isn't worth paying $10 million dollars per year in salaries and benefits so that a $300,000 house can be saved once a decade. The cost doesn't equal the savings. And I know that a life is priceless...but in many small towns, just the opportunity to make a grab may only come about once every 50 years. And who is to say that a first arriving, qualified, TRAINED volunteer wouldn't make that same grab with the same level of skill.

One of the funadmental problems with this argument is that nobody is saying there should be career departments instead of volunteer departments. The argument as I see it is that there should be just one standard for training for firefighter. If you're a volunteer and can't take it full-time during the week that's OK but you should still have to meet the same training objectives as a career guy to be designated a firefighter.

The problem with your statement above is that there is no guarantee that you're getting a qualfied and trained FF in many volunteer departments. However a career department is obligated to follow the mandated training so you are getting a qualified and trained firefighter. Now, before anyone reads this as a smack to the vollie side, there there are plenty of properly trained guys on the volunteer side. But you can't say, with any degree of certainty, that they'll be the ones showing up at your fire.

One training standard impiemented statewide (like they are for cop and EMT and paramedic) would go a long way to bridge this philosopical divide between career and volunteer firefighters.

Here endeth the rant.

[firecapt32 282]

I am reading a lot of great comments on this subject. One standard seems to be the common thread.

Lets try and agree on some common "facts" there are well trained firefighters both career and volunteer.

Having said that. ITS THE PEOPLE THAT WE ARE SWORN TO PROTECT THAT DESERVE THE BEST/WELL TRAINED FIREFIGHTERS.

One fire-- ten fires--fifty fires how many does it take to injury and or kill a firefighter ---answer one

If you want to help your community and cannot make the common standard--and that my friends is only the minium-- go to the parks and receration and grab a rake or broom, I am sure can help cleanup.

Again lets not lose sight of the big picture--We as firefighters are in business to protect the people of our town/village/city/fire district. We do not send un trained police out there why do we send untrained or undertrained fire personnel out there?? dont even think the answer is because IT'S Free. or they do the best they can that dosent make it in this century.

I have listened to many of the following: you cant expect us to put in all thoses hours. we take time away from our families. We do the best we can it doesnt fly in 2013

I grew up playing basball--third base for the little league Cubs-- I know i cant play for the Yankees--wait maby I can but you get the picture. Lets all be major leagures here. ONE STANDARD thats not too much to ask to protect our citizens.

EOR---end of rant

[M' Ave 1,466]

This is a topic that deserves little to no debate. The idea is asinine and Texas is one of the most backwards states in our fair union. Anyone aware that Texas has NO state fire codes? None! Are we also aware that in the wake of the deaths of volunteer firefighters at the fertilizer plant explosion there is no serious bill being examined to enact new legislation that might have prevented last months disaster? In fact, even after said disaster, Rick Perry has been out championing the fact that Texas is biz friendly because they lack oversight and regulation!

I love a slim, streamlined Gov't, just not one that sees no fault in the loss of a firefighters life.

"Don't mess with Texas!" . Fine! Give it to Mexico, along with that hack Gov..

Edited May 17, 2013 by M' Ave

[RES24CUE 168]

This is a topic that deserves little to no debate. The idea is asinine and Texas is one of the most backwards states in our fair union. Anyone aware that Texas has NO state fire codes? None! Are we also aware that in the wake of the deaths of volunteer firefighters at the fertilizer plant explosion there is no serious bill being examined to enact new legislation that might have prevented last months disaster? In fact, even after said disaster, Rick Perry has been out championing the fact that Texas is biz friendly because they lack oversight and regulation!

I love a slim, streamlined Gov't, just not one that sees no fault in the loss of a firefighters life.

"Don't mess with Texas!" . Fine! Give it to Mexico, along with that hack Gov..

Who brought the Democrat?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

This is a topic that deserves little to no debate. The idea is asinine and Texas is one of the most backwards states in our fair union. Anyone aware that Texas has NO state fire codes? None! Are we also aware that in the wake of the deaths of volunteer firefighters at the fertilizer plant explosion there is no serious bill being examined to enact new legislation that might have prevented last months disaster? In fact, even after said disaster, Rick Perry has been out championing the fact that Texas is biz friendly because they lack oversight and regulation!

I love a slim, streamlined Gov't, just not one that sees no fault in the loss of a firefighters life.

"Don't mess with Texas!" . Fine! Give it to Mexico, along with that hack Gov..

Lets not forget that the Texas legislators failed to pass a bill authorizing $60 million in training dollars earmarked for volunteer firefighters only days after the incident at West, Texas.

I don't think one needs a party affiliation to see that Texas is more inclined to kill their citizens in their homes and places of business and firefighters doing their job then it is to enact legislation protecting them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/10/us/after-plant-explosion-texas-remains-wary-of-regulation.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Edited May 17, 2013 by SRS131EMTFF

[M' Ave 1,466]

Who brought the Democrat?

Yes, I support common sense protections for workers, emergency workers especially.....must be a democrat.

FYI, I'm a registered republican, the party looked a little different back then when I signed up though. Too bad.

[tommyguy 104]

Anyone aware that Texas has NO state fire codes? None!

I agree in the wake of what happened in West, Texas this is a poor time to be doing this. And let's face it, this is probably all tied to keeping expenditures down.

But Texas does have a state fire code.

http://www.tdi.texas.gov/commish/code.html#firecode

[M' Ave 1,466]

I agree in the wake of what happened in West, Texas this is a poor time to be doing this. And let's face it, this is probably all tied to keeping expenditures down.

But Texas does have a state fire code.

http://www.tdi.texas.gov/commish/code.html#firecode

No, they don't. Additionally, as per the Recent article they prohibit small municipalities from creating their own. What you linked above is a very short list under health and public safety that governs the fire Marshall. I'd hardly call those fire codes.

[GBFD111 73]

Fair warning: I'm going on a bit of a rant here.

The sad fact is that many rural communities follow that exact model. The only way they get away with it is because call volume is so low that statistics will very rarely catch up to them.

I personally think this is selfish, there is a standard and it should be upheld. But the general mindset that guides this kind of thing isn't exclusive to volunteers. Many firefighters, career and volunteer, believe that because they're considered the "experts" in the field, that they shouldn't have to respond to the will of their customers (within reason). That's crap. "ITS NOT ABOUT YOU" is the phrase that comes to mind, and maybe it should be painted on the inside of every apparatus bay door in the country. The residents of a community are put at ease believing they have a fire department that is trained to do the job. Maybe its not a career department, because the town hasn't determined it needs/can afford that level of protection, but they expect the personnel that do respond to be adequately trained to complete the tasks they're assigned.

Here's an idea: Lets pass a law saying if your fire department doesn't follow minimum accredited training standards, you're required to call the organization "Bucket Brigade" or "Cellar Savers." Just a little truth in advertising.

You want the title? Earn it. Show that you're proud of what it means and that you're willing to go the extra mile to help your community. Don't take a cop-out route like this. This kind of thing is an insult to those of us who are proud to be volunteer Firefighters.

I completely agree with you here. This reminded me of an article that i read a few weeks ago about a department near my mutual aid company in Northern NY where they are actually "locked out" of their firehouse until they complete their mandatory trainings. No matter what your call volume is, one should be trained properly to hold their status as a firefighter.

http://www.wwnytv.com/news/local/Tuesday-Newton-Falls-Fire-Volunteers-Locked-Out-201104971.html?m=y&smobile=y&clmob=y&c=n

^^^^article on firehouse lockout^^^^^

[RES24CUE 168]

I completely agree with you here. This reminded me of an article that i read a few weeks ago about a department near my mutual aid company in Northern NY where they are actually "locked out" of their firehouse until they complete their mandatory trainings. No matter what your call volume is, one should be trained properly to hold their status as a firefighter.

http://www.wwnytv.com/news/local/Tuesday-Newton-Falls-Fire-Volunteers-Locked-Out-201104971.html?m=y&smobile=y&clmob=y&c=n

^^^^article on firehouse lockout^^^^^

It's about time that someone took action!!!! I commend the Fire District in that municipality for having the guts to take drastic measures. I can't tell you how many times that I have attended a "mandatory" training in my department. However, when the class was over, and members didn't show, their keys remained on and their gear remained on the rack. Why? Because people are too afraid that a member is just going to quit. Then his friends and father and everyone else that he is connected to will be disgruntled also and stop coming around. I can't tell you how many times I have heard things like "we need everyone we can get" and "we'll take anybody." I tell you what we don't need; a sexual harrassment suit because someone didn't attend the mandatory sensitivity training; an accident that takes a piece of apparatus out of service for a few months because someone did't attend the mandatory driver training; or god forbid, a line of duty death because someone didn't take thier mandatory Firefighter 1 trainnig. We CAN afford to lose a few members who are untrained or lack the respect for their command that tells them that they need to attend a certain class or training because its important to the goals of the organization. I actually heard an Officer brag recently that he didn't attend the mandatory sensistivity training because he thought it was stupid to a table full of young, new, impressionable firefighters. In the process, he undermined the authority of his commanding officers completely to those young members and gave them the impression that the Chiefs and Commissioner are "all bark and no bite." Yet, that officer ran for his position regardless, won, and currently holds his positon with or without the knowledge that his department deemed mandatory.

Additionally, I have seen a tremendous amount of hesitation on behalf of the Commanding Officers to make trainings mandatory. I have always suggested mandatory Officer's classes in my department (which shall remain anonymous) if a person wants to be an Officer. The response, "we already don't have enough guys to fill the spots." You know what that makes them? Spot fillers...not trained, knowledgeable fire Officers.

I have also suggested that it be mandatory the take Emergency Vehicle Operations Course in order to someone to be qualified as a Chauffeur and Pump Ops for someone to be qualified to drive an engine. The response, "We already have enough trouble getting the trucks out the door during the day." Once again, in this instance, you don't have Chauffeurs or Pump Operators, you have an accident waiting to happen. You have an individual responsible for the lives of 5-8 members with no formal training hauling ass down the road and a fire room full of firefighters with no water between them and the fire.

There needs to be consequences for failure to comply with mandatory training in order for them to actually be mandatory. I can guarantee that after this mess in Newton Falls is sorted out, the next time the Newton Falls Fire District deems a training as mandatory and gives the department officers a mandate to see that all members are compliant, those officers will take them seriously. Once this department gets back on their feet, I am sure that they will be be a better trained and more qualified department. Its better to have your neighboring companies laughing at you for getting shut down than to have them saluting the engine carrying your casket to your final resting place. Plus, I'm sure that they don't mind taking in the extra calls while you get your asses in gear.

[helicopper 1,050]

This is a topic that deserves little to no debate. The idea is asinine and Texas is one of the most backwards states in our fair union. Anyone aware that Texas has NO state fire codes? None! Are we also aware that in the wake of the deaths of volunteer firefighters at the fertilizer plant explosion there is no serious bill being examined to enact new legislation that might have prevented last months disaster? In fact, even after said disaster, Rick Perry has been out championing the fact that Texas is biz friendly because they lack oversight and regulation!

I love a slim, streamlined Gov't, just not one that sees no fault in the loss of a firefighters life.

"Don't mess with Texas!" . Fine! Give it to Mexico, along with that hack Gov..

It shouldn't take legislation for people to do the right thing. And considering the quality of knee jerk reactionary legislation we've seen recently, I hope they DON'T rush to pass something because of the West disaster.

Ther must be some codes in Texas because everywhere I've been there are fire doors, sprinklers, fire zones, evacuation plans, fire escapes, and so on. They're not just doing that because it's the right thing to do so it must be codified somewhere.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Helicopper, people inherently don't do the right thing. That's what leaves us requiring legislation. As for the sprinklers and the fire escapes, larger municipalities do have fire codes. They are municipal codes. Other regulations might be buried in building codes, who knows? While I agree that knee jerk reaction must be avoided, there is some common sense here that is clearly not too common. Ammonium nitrate storage should be regularly inspected and better protected from sources of.ignition. Perhaps it shouldn't be stored in such bulk that an explosion registers on the Richter scale.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

This topic has gotten kind of off track, but just in reference to some of the statements made:

Texas DOES have a fire code, the State Fire Marshals Office uses NFPA 101, the Life Safety Code.

http://www.tdi.texas.gov/fire/fmfsi.html

No, they don't. Additionally, as per the Recent article they prohibit small municipalities from creating their own. What you linked above is a very short list under health and public safety that governs the fire Marshall. I'd hardly call those fire codes.

To be fair, the State of Connecticut doesn't allow municipalities to create their own Fire Codes either, so that's hardly a fair argument to make.

OSHA and EPA laws and regulations exist no matter what state you're in, so to say that there's NO regulation in Texas isn't entirely accurate, they're held to the same federal standards that any other regulated industry is. Also if I recall correctly, this company WAS fined for a violation by Texas' environmental enforcement agency previously, so its not as if nobody is out there enforcing the law.

Edited May 17, 2013 by SageVigiles

[helicopper 1,050]

Helicopper, people inherently don't do the right thing. That's what leaves us requiring legislation. As for the sprinklers and the fire escapes, larger municipalities do have fire codes. They are municipal codes. Other regulations might be buried in building codes, who knows? While I agree that knee jerk reaction must be avoided, there is some common sense here that is clearly not too common. Ammonium nitrate storage should be regularly inspected and better protected from sources of.ignition. Perhaps it shouldn't be stored in such bulk that an explosion registers on the Richter scale.

Being the eternal cynic, I'm surprised that I'm actually saying this but... most people inherently DO the right thing, or at least try to. There are always exceptions and there are always the dregs of society (like criminals and politicians or is that redundant) who garner much of the media attention but the vast majority of people strive to do the right thing.

Back to the topic at hand, I'm confused now. You said in one post (emphatically) that Texas had no codes and now you're saying that they do. I'm not sure what the distinction is between building codes, municipal codes and the codes you're saying don't exist. Are there no state fire codes because they already exist in other legislation or at other levels of government?

Bulk storage of hazardous materials and petroleum products has always existed and there is always the potential for a disaster. Would inspections and other safeguards have prevented this? Do we know with any certainty what the cause was? I don't know the answers so I'm not rushing to judgment. Seems to me there are investigations ongoing into this possibly being an intentional act. Inspections wouldn't prevent that if it is indeed true.