Decon In Westchester?

[helicopper 1,050]

In the northern part of the county there is no plan... and one day it will be a problem, someone will get caught with their pants down. Seems like the loss of the county MDU's especially up north is a big problem that not many were aware of. Just another reason we have the county haz-mat team with their expertise.

We all seem to realize it but how many of us are doing anything about it?

To be blunt, the loss of the MDU's is irrelevant because there was never a tried and true plan for using them. There was a bunch of county owned equipment, stored in a local FD, and perhaps drilled on once in a while. That's no plan. Where was the training, drills, and exercises to validate the written plan? Was there ever a written plan? Unfortunately all the good intentions were never backed up with actions!

The County Haz-Mat team is going to have it's hands full if there's a situation that requires mass decon. We can't rely on them to do that too. That's why the trailers were pushed out to various locations around the county.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We all seem to realize it but how many of us are doing anything about it?

To be blunt, the loss of the MDU's is irrelevant because there was never a tried and true plan for using them. There was a bunch of county owned equipment, stored in a local FD, and perhaps drilled on once in a while. That's no plan. Where was the training, drills, and exercises to validate the written plan? Was there ever a written plan? Unfortunately all the good intentions were never backed up with actions!

Yes there was a written plan. It laid out where equipment should go. what depts should be assigned to each trailer.

What a standard trailer response was (12ff & 2off, the trailer & tow vehicle plus 1 engine). It was thought that the 4 to 6 depts that were assigned as a unit could get that out even daytime.

There was also standardized training. I believe about 250 ff's recieved the training (plus the 700+ FF's from the squad system).

The plan included annual training and exercises, but I do not know if any beyond the 1st year was performed

[Jybehofd 85]

The northern part of the county has many many issues.... and the southern part will pick up the weight and respond once the north is overwhelmed. It has happened in the past. One of the biggest problem is there is no EMS command... fire command takes the role of ems command, and only a very small few fire departments have ambulances and know what needs to get done. It would be nice is the EMS version of the battalions could take command at an MCI.

[JM15 386]

Does their expertise bring mass decon equipment with them?

Most Hazmat trucks only have enough room to carry technical decon equipment (to decon the team).

Also do they respond with enough people to handle Hazmat (recon, research, entry, back-up, suit-out, medical monitoring, instrimentation set-up, technical decon, hazmat command, hazmat safety) and Mass Decon?

I understand your points and I am not saying its perfect. Where I was getting at was the knowledge and expertise that they can also bring. Helping the IC get a handle on what needs to be done or what resources there are out there. It is still better than 5 guys going into the building with limited haz-mat training and sending the awaiting pt's into an ambulance to be shuttled to the hospital.

[JM15 386]

The northern part of the county has many many issues.... and the southern part will pick up the weight and respond once the north is overwhelmed. It has happened in the past. One of the biggest problem is there is no EMS command... fire command takes the role of ems command, and only a very small few fire departments have ambulances and know what needs to get done. It would be nice is the EMS version of the battalions could take command at an MCI.

While its great that the South will come and help when its needed, but I see that as being too late.

[helicopper 1,050]

Just wondering, if there was even a need at this incident. The county has numerous decontamination resources that have been aqquired via grants over the past several years. Did this incident require decon response and setup? If so, was it the "tent system" or another type of system used?

The county has lots of decon equipment but it has few decon resources. It might be semantics but to me a resource is something that is trained, equipped, and staffed (even on-call) and available to respond. Equipment is the bunch of trailers full of stuff sitting around without being used while a resource is one that can actually be mobilized and utilized for the prescribed purpose.

[FDVA356 23]

Montrose VAFD has a Haz Mat/Decon truck (HM3). Trained staff (Advanced Haz Zmat Techs) manned 24/7

[Bnechis 3,961]

Montrose VAFD has a Haz Mat/Decon truck (HM3). Trained staff (Advanced Haz Zmat Techs) manned 24/7

What is its staffing level and can that be expanded with call back in an "acceptable" time?

[FDVA356 23]

Capable of additional manpower from callbacks in good time. Usually have guys back in here ratger quickly. Initial crews would be 3-5.

[x635 4,066]

Why doesn't Lake Mohegan maintain the northern Westchester Decon Task force. They would be the most central. They could get the decon vehicle out the door quickly with the firefighter assigned to Rescue 32 and every local FD should have a few people trained in decon to assist.

[helicopper 1,050]

Why doesn't Lake Mohegan maintain the northern Westchester Decon Task force. They would be the most central. They could get the decon vehicle out the door quickly with the firefighter assigned to Rescue 32 and every local FD should have a few people trained in decon to assist.

While a good idea in theory, the problem is that every local FD has it's own issues, priorities, and agendas so a coordinated effort - such as the one you propose - would be nearly impossible to manage.

On the subject of responders/staffing, what is the bare minimum necessary to be considered a viable "haz-mat team"? You will need at least four dressed out in appropriate PPE (2 in-2 out) plus an IC (properly trained) and sufficient numbers for decon, right?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Part of the problem is that people take HAZMAT ops, do a powerpoint refresher every year, dress out in Level B's for 30 minutes and call themselves prepared.

Fire, Police, EMS and Emergency Management SHOULD be doing at least annual exercises on this kind of operation. But as several people have mentioned, if you can't get a first due ambulance out to a chest pain call, its unlikely you're going to get them out for a decon call.

[x635 4,066]

While a good idea in theory, the problem is that every local FD has it's own issues, priorities, and agendas so a coordinated effort - such as the one you propose - would be nearly impossible to manage.

I'm talking about decon. When FAST was a new concept, Mohegan got called to just about every fire in northern Westchester for their well trained and properly equipped FAST team. They'd take Engine 255, wait for some of the volunteer firefighters to show up, and respond.

There's no reason Decon couldn't work in a simlar fashion.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why doesn't Lake Mohegan maintain the northern Westchester Decon Task force. They would be the most central. They could get the decon vehicle out the door quickly with the firefighter assigned to Rescue 32 and every local FD should have a few people trained in decon to assist.

They were included in the Cortlandt/Yorktown team.

As Chris said, every dept has their own issues and reasons, but it is clear that 8 or so depts in this group could not get someone to host.

[x635 4,066]

My best guess about decon is that it doesn't happen often nor is it exciting work. But it is vital, and have been to several incidents and numerous drills where decon has been used.

There are other areas around the country, like locally the NJ Regional EMS Task Force, that have it down right. Heck, who's to say NYS is not dropping the ball on this one?

BNechis, you and Doc Kiernan wrote an article describing a concept and basically step by step instructions, which was mostly written pre-9/11. That plan comes down to the almighty dollar, but it is adaptable.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Capable of additional manpower from callbacks in good time. Usually have guys back in here ratger quickly. Initial crews would be 3-5.

On the subject of responders/staffing, what is the bare minimum necessary to be considered a viable "haz-mat team"? You will need at least four dressed out in appropriate PPE (2 in-2 out) plus an IC (properly trained) and sufficient numbers for decon, right?

Thanks FDVA and great question Chris.

Once you get into suits, you need to follow 2in 2out and decon must be established before you make entry into a hot zone.

Having been involved in response plans and evaluating many drills/exersises the squad system was developed because we found that the Yonkers HM Task Force with approx 30 responders could not handle an incident that required mitigation and mass decon. It was sufficient if no civilians or 1st responders were contaminated before the team arrived and set up. This was reconfirmed this year at the Paladin Center (with close to 48 responders). When we drilled with the 6 squad companies we found the following personnel was needed:

2-6 entry (suits)

2 Back-up (suits- minimum)

4-8 Dressout (minimum)

2-4 Medical Monitoring

6 Technical Decon Set-up (1 squad)

6 Technical Decon (suits) (1 squad)

2 Research

2 Logistics (Meters)

6 Mass Decon Set-up (1 squad)

6 Mass Decon (suits) (1 squad)

2 Hazmat Command

1 Hazmat Safety

Thats 41 to 51

Decon team also requires 1-2 engine companies for water supply

Note: the Mass decon requires a minimum of 2 squads (10ff / 2off) which is also the minimum the MDU were required to provide.

Now having 3-6 HM Techs responding to a Hazmat incident is sufficent for a large % of HM incidents where materials need to be evaluated and generally the incident gets better when you allow time to let it stabilize. But once people are contaminated the needs for rapid decon and/or rescue can not wait.

[x635 4,066]

Again, we are talking about mass decon. But what about smaller type of incidents, where a much smaller number of people might only need it?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Again, we are talking about mass decon. But what about smaller type of incidents, where a much smaller number of people might only need it?

Remove the 12 from my list that are assigned to mass decon

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is no different that the 16+ that are needed on a fire alarm. Most of the time depts "get away" with 3 to 6. But most of the time it is not a fire.

Thats the reason the standards call for enough to get started if their is a fire.

Just because you have gotten away with it in the past does not mean it is right or it won't come back to bite you in the future