Decon In Westchester?

[x635 4,066]

Just wondering, if there was even a need at this incident. The county has numerous decontamination resources that have been aqquired via grants over the past several years. Did this incident require decon response and setup? If so, was it the "tent system" or another type of system used?

Edited April 19, 2013 by x635
Title changed to reflect enhanced discussion

[JM15 386]

No decon was performed

[Bnechis 3,961]

The county has numerous decontamination resources that have been aqquired via grants over the past several years. If so, was it the "tent system" or another type of system used?

1) The county HAD numerous decontamination resources. It is my understanding that 3 of the 6 Mass Decon Units (MDU's) are no longer active and/or returned their trailers. 1 unit was never deployed and one unit stopped training and maintaing their unit years ago.

2) the only system that was purchased was "tent" based.

[JM15 386]

Where are the remaining MDU's located?

[PEMO3 523]

1) The county HAD numerous decontamination resources. It is my understanding that 3 of the 6 Mass Decon Units (MDU's) are no longer active and/or returned their trailers. 1 unit was never deployed and one unit stopped training and maintaing their unit years ago.

2) the only system that was purchased was "tent" based.

I do not want to read into your statement but if I understand it correctly the "real" reason no decon unit was on site as even a standby status was because somebody (I am not pointing fingers anywhere) allowed a valuable response team to be dismantled to a level that is would not be available to respond? In today's day and age if this were the case I find it troubling. Again, no finger pointing, no second guessing just a question. For all we know the IC and HazMat may have deemed the operation such that strict decon was not required.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Where are the remaining MDU's located?

Great question.

The original plan was as follows:

MDU #1 Town of Greenburgh (Incorporated Villages):

• Ardsley, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington, Hastings & Tarrytown - MDU #1 was never deployed

MDU #2 Sound Shore Chiefs:

• Harrison, Larchmont, Mamaroneck (Town & Village), Port Chester, Rye & Rye Brook - MDU #2 was originally housed in PC

MDU #3 Central Westchester:

• Armonk, North White Plains, Purchase & West Harrison - MDU #3 is housed at AFD

MDU #4 Briarcliff Area

• Briarcliff, Millwood & Ossinging - MDU #4 was purchased by BMFD with grant funds

MDU #5 North Central Westchester (Towns of Bedford, Mt. Kisco, Somers)

• Bedford, Bedford Hills, Katonah, Mt. Kisco & Somers - MDU #5 was originally housed in Katonah

MDU #6 North Western Westchester. (Towns of Cortland & Yorktown)

• Not sure if this unit was ever established, there was talk at one time that Montrose VA would handle

[Bnechis 3,961]

I do not want to read into your statement but if I understand it correctly the "real" reason no decon unit was on site as even a standby status was because somebody (I am not pointing fingers anywhere) allowed a valuable response team to be dismantled to a level that is would not be available to respond? In today's day and age if this were the case I find it troubling. Again, no finger pointing, no second guessing just a question. For all we know the IC and HazMat may have deemed the operation such that strict decon was not required.

I have no knowledge of this incident and if decon was or was not needed.

It is not a "somebody" who allowed it....The agencies that agreed to do it or in at least one case agreed they would not do it have dropped the ball.

[x635 4,066]

1) The county HAD numerous decontamination resources. It is my understanding that 3 of the 6 Mass Decon Units (MDU's) are no longer active and/or returned their trailers. 1 unit was never deployed and one unit stopped training and maintaing their unit years ago.

2) the only system that was purchased was "tent" based.

Why did the County "Had" numerous decon resources? Were they reduced because of duplication? But I can't see 3 trailers/teams being able to cover Westchester? And was one of those available resources at least assembled ready to go upon the information of chemical spill with victims?

Sometimes I wonder if trucks like FDNY's Mack/Ferrara DeCon "ready to go" units that are a little easier to deploy and require less manpower, yet a lot more expensive to purchase, would work better?

[JM15 386]

Great question.

The original plan was as follows:

MDU #1 Town of Greenburgh (Incorporated Villages):

• Ardsley, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington, Hastings & Tarrytown - MDU #1 was never deployed

MDU #2 Sound Shore Chiefs:

• Harrison, Larchmont, Mamaroneck (Town & Village), Port Chester, Rye & Rye Brook - MDU #2 was originally housed in PC

MDU #3 Central Westchester:

• Armonk, North White Plains, Purchase & West Harrison - MDU #3 is housed at AFD

MDU #4 Briarcliff Area

• Briarcliff, Millwood & Ossinging - MDU #4 was purchased by BMFD with grant funds

MDU #5 North Central Westchester (Towns of Bedford, Mt. Kisco, Somers)

• Bedford, Bedford Hills, Katonah, Mt. Kisco & Somers - MDU #5 was originally housed in Katonah

MDU #6 North Western Westchester. (Towns of Cortland & Yorktown)

• Not sure if this unit was ever established, there was talk at one time that Montrose VA would handle

Great info!! Which ones were de-commissioned? I don't think Katonah still has it...

Edited April 19, 2013 by JM15

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why did the County "Had" numerous decon resources? Were they reduced because of duplication?

No they were reduced because 58 FD's cant cover the day to day job of maintaining its ability to respond to fires. The different departments could not maintain them.

But I can't see 3 trailers/teams being able to cover Westchester?

You are correct, we wanted 8 teams (plus the 6 squads)

And was one of those available resources at least assembled ready to go upon the information of chemical spill with victims?

I do not know

Sometimes I wonder if trucks like FDNY's Mack/Ferrara DeCon "ready to go" units that are a little easier to deploy and require less manpower, yet a lot more expensive to purchase, would work better?

They are much easier, but we do not have that level of funding.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

To be fair if its a vapor there isn't much positive effect that decontamination of victims is going to do (product dependent.)

[JM15 386]

MASS DECON TRAILERS

MDU1

MDU2 PORT CHESTER

MDU3

MDU4 BEDFORD/KATONAH

MDU5

MDU6 CORTLANDT

MDU7

MDU8

From the 2010 Apparatus Listing....

[x635 4,066]

To be fair if its a vapor there isn't much positive effect that decontamination of victims is going to do (product dependent.)

It was probaly identified immediately if the decided no decon needed, but vapors can get into clothing and contaminate others, possibly cause allergic or other reactions to the crew in the tight space in the back of an ambulance, and it's always safer then sorry.

And I understand it can be done at the hospital level if needed, but that, I am told, is mostly for the walk in's.

An old 40-ft Bee-Line bus and some of the talent and trades in Westchester County could convert it into a very nice Decon unit. (and rehab units, too)

[MoFire390 118]

Great question.

The original plan was as follows:

MDU #1 Town of Greenburgh (Incorporated Villages):

• Ardsley, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Irvington, Hastings & Tarrytown - MDU #1 was never deployed

MDU #2 Sound Shore Chiefs:

• Harrison, Larchmont, Mamaroneck (Town & Village), Port Chester, Rye & Rye Brook - MDU #2 was originally housed in PC

MDU #3 Central Westchester:

• Armonk, North White Plains, Purchase & West Harrison - MDU #3 is housed at AFD

MDU #4 Briarcliff Area

• Briarcliff, Millwood & Ossinging - MDU #4 was purchased by BMFD with grant funds

MDU #5 North Central Westchester (Towns of Bedford, Mt. Kisco, Somers)

• Bedford, Bedford Hills, Katonah, Mt. Kisco & Somers - MDU #5 was originally housed in Katonah

MDU #6 North Western Westchester. (Towns of Cortland & Yorktown)

• Not sure if this unit was ever established, there was talk at one time that Montrose VA would handle

MDU 6 was in service and was in Verplanck at first. Then was turned over to Montrose FD, who then returned it to the County as not having a place to store the unit.

[x635 4,066]

I should note, Empress EMS maintains significant decon equipment and trained personel 24/7, in cooperation with Yonkers FD.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I should note, Empress EMS maintains significant decon equipment and trained personel 24/7, in cooperation with Yonkers FD.

As do the squads

[demps121 39]

Barry,

Lets talk about 2 of the squads that were disbanded. 1 Was Squad 5 that was handled by Eastchester and Scarsdale. Eastchester is allegedly with Mt Vernon now. Lets say there is an incident in NYC trains are going to be stopping in New Rochelle because they have a hospital, Trains will stop in Yonkers because they have 2 hospitals, Trains will stop in Mt Vernon because they have a hospital, and guess what trains will stop in Bronxville because there is a hospital.

So now lets talk about decon at these locations, how are we going to decide who gets the trailer? and the needed equipment?

Also Mt Vernon has 3 train stations as does Eastchester. Perhaps the people that made the decision to do away with squad 5 should really speak to the people that do the work. The plan may look good from some meeting room however not in practical application.

Captain Richard Dempsey

Eastchester Fire Dept

Haz Mat Tech

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry,

Lets talk about 2 of the squads that were disbanded. 1 Was Squad 5 that was handled by Eastchester and Scarsdale. Eastchester is allegedly with Mt Vernon now. Lets say there is an incident in NYC trains are going to be stopping in New Rochelle because they have a hospital, Trains will stop in Yonkers because they have 2 hospitals, Trains will stop in Mt Vernon because they have a hospital, and guess what trains will stop in Bronxville because there is a hospital.

So now lets talk about decon at these locations, how are we going to decide who gets the trailer? and the needed equipment?

Also Mt Vernon has 3 train stations as does Eastchester. Perhaps the people that made the decision to do away with squad 5 should really speak to the people that do the work. The plan may look good from some meeting room however not in practical application.

Captain Richard Dempsey

Eastchester Fire Dept

Haz Mat Tech

I agree with what you are saying and would be glad to discuse it in more depth offline. but since I was replaced as a rep for that I do not know why or what happened, but I was told that as of last week they had reinstated the 2 squads.

The MTA plan for a NYC event was to have only 3 stops, one on each of the main lines (NH, Harlem & Hudson). The planning was not based on hospital locations per say, but on stations that would be best for setting up decon and controlling the movement of people.

[wraftery 1,275]

I agree with what you are saying and would be glad to discuse it in more depth offline. but since I was replaced as a rep for that I do not know why or what happened, but I was told that as of last week they had reinstated the 2 squads.

The MTA plan for a NYC event was to have only 3 stops, one on each of the main lines (NH, Harlem & Hudson). The planning was not based on hospital locations per say, but on stations that would be best for setting up decon and controlling the movement of people.

I agree with what you are saying and would be glad to discuse it in more depth offline. but since I was replaced as a rep for that I do not know why or what happened, but I was told that as of last week they had reinstated the 2 squads.

The MTA plan for a NYC event was to have only 3 stops, one on each of the main lines (NH, Harlem & Hudson). The planning was not based on hospital locations per say, but on stations that would be best for setting up decon and controlling the movement of people.

Barry,

Lets talk about 2 of the squads that were disbanded. 1 Was Squad 5 that was handled by Eastchester and Scarsdale. Eastchester is allegedly with Mt Vernon now. Lets say there is an incident in NYC trains are going to be stopping in New Rochelle because they have a hospital, Trains will stop in Yonkers because they have 2 hospitals, Trains will stop in Mt Vernon because they have a hospital, and guess what trains will stop in Bronxville because there is a hospital.

So now lets talk about decon at these locations, how are we going to decide who gets the trailer? and the needed equipment?

Also Mt Vernon has 3 train stations as does Eastchester. Perhaps the people that made the decision to do away with squad 5 should really speak to the people that do the work. The plan may look good from some meeting room however not in practical application.

Captain Richard Dempsey

Eastchester Fire Dept

Haz Mat Tech

It looks like a larger regional Fire Department might be the only thing that could get a handle on things like this. Chiefs seem to join into things like the Southern Westchester Spec Ops Task Force and after a couple of years thay either "unjoin" or change their piece of the plan without telling anyone.

At least a regional FD would be structured and goal oriented fpr the area as opposed to the committee system with no teeth that we have now.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It looks like a larger regional Fire Department might be the only thing that could get a handle on things like this.

Yes and it could also handle the day to day calls that many Westchester depts can not.

But, if we did that we would not be able to buy all the rigs that fill our stations and make us proud of how well we are protecting the public.

Chiefs seem to join into things like the Southern Westchester Spec Ops Task Force and after a couple of years thay either "unjoin" or change their piece of the plan without telling anyone.

Must be nice to be retired and able to see whats going on

At least a regional FD would be structured and goal oriented fpr the area as opposed to the committee system with no teeth that we have now.

But we want understaffed units covering small areas so we never get the call volume (read experience) needed to hone our skills.

[x635 4,066]

Regardless of all the drama with the "teams" (sometimes doubtful that word even exists or is of serious interest in the Westchester Fire/EMS business outside of softball), if there was an industrial accident like a chemical spill in the northern parts of Westchester, how would we handle it?

Let's say we have 18 victims, with an unknown chemical on their clothing and bodies, causing irritation and burns on their skin. It's 34 degrees out. Haz-Mat is still several minutes out, and their is no MSDS available from the workplace or knowledge of the chemical, even the name. Transporting in an ambulance without decon could affect the EMT or EMT-P as well.

How would we get a timely decon resource in northern Westchester County, especially during the weekday hours? Basically, we'd just have to strip them down of their clothes and dignity, and use the hose from the engine to rinse them off, hope there are enough ambulances that are there waiting with blankets and heat to transport as soon as decon is complete?

How would we do it?

[MoFire390 118]

Seth, because of Entergy all the hospitals now have some sort of decon system set up. The hospitals need a heads up that you are coming to prepare. Northern Westchester has an out door decon prep, Hudson Valley has an indoor which has its on drain and clean air vent system. So a quick decon from an engine is gonna have to do until the proper resorces get on scene

[helicopper 1,050]

Seth, because of Entergy all the hospitals now have some sort of decon system set up. The hospitals need a heads up that you are coming to prepare. Northern Westchester has an out door decon prep, Hudson Valley has an indoor which has its on drain and clean air vent system. So a quick decon from an engine is gonna have to do until the proper resorces get on scene

That's not a plan. That's what would happen in the absence of a plan. Taking chemically contaminated patients in an ambulance is NOT a good idea, nor is bringing them to an emergency department regardless of their alleged capabilities (and the Entergy exercises/preparation is all focused on radioactive contamination which won't have off-gassing).

Let's face it, there is NO plan for a major incident. We all just hope for the best. That's not a plan either!

[wraftery 1,275]

If I am th IC, what are my options in this Alleged mass contamination?

Looks to me like we have to take about 50 naked people on each school bus and open the windows. Drive said busses betwee two fire engines wih deck guns flowing and aimed at the windowline. Keep driving. You now need the US Marines' Mobile Decon Team out of Maryland. They have a 4 hr response time which coincides with the amount of time a school bus can drive around without reflling.

Whoops! I forgot. I cannot just call for the Marines by myself. I have to convince the chain (Local mayor, County Exec, Governor, and finally Barak O) that sending me the USMC is a good idea.

I think about the fact that, up to now, I haven't been able to convince "the chain" of anything, my guess is that the busses will run out of fuel before I get the Marines.

Hopefully, the busses will run out of fuel in someone else's jurisdiction.

I have no Plan B.

[Remember585 815]

I always hope it's raining should we need decon... problem solved.

[Bnechis 3,961]

That's not a plan. That's what would happen in the absence of a plan. Taking chemically contaminated patients in an ambulance is NOT a good idea, nor is bringing them to an emergency department regardless of their alleged capabilities.

Let's face it, there is NO plan for a major incident. We all just hope for the best. That's not a plan either!

Actually the plan is we keep toning out for ambulances and then for mutual aid to cover the 1st (2nd & 3rd) due and by the time we get crews there the pts are dead and the flycar medics are contaminated.

I'll go further than saying it is not a good idea and say its a very bad idea! If the pt. off gasses the crew could be killed. Depending on the chemical you may not be able to decon the ambulance. All the little compartments and sliding door tracks, plus cusions etc.

20 years ago I saw ambulances in Germany that the rear was 100% stainless steel and was sealed in such a way they could and routinly did decon them. I also remember about that time reading about an ambulance that was contaminated and got EPA "baged" for disposal. Try explaining that to the tax payers, owners or chiefs.

15 years ago there was an incident in lower Westchester where 20+ contaminated pts were transported to SSMC, MVH & LH. None were deconned, they were allowed into 2 of the 3 ER's and EMS crews bitched that the 3rd ER would not let them in till the pts were deconned. NYS DOH fined the 2 hospitals for allowing entry.

You are correct, the plan for chemical emergencies here is to "hope for the best"......but that is the same plan as for staffing for everyday events.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hopefully, the busses will run out of fuel in someone else's jurisdiction.

Ding...Ding......Ding....That is the plan and your prize is an all expense paid decon plan and team in the tidewater region

[JM15 386]

In the northern part of the county there is no plan... and one day it will be a problem, someone will get caught with their pants down. Seems like the loss of the county MDU's especially up north is a big problem that not many were aware of. Just another reason we have the county haz-mat team with their expertise.

Edited April 20, 2013 by JM15

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just another reason we have the county haz-mat team with their expertise.

Does their expertise bring mass decon equipment with them?

Most Hazmat trucks only have enough room to carry technical decon equipment (to decon the team).

Also do they respond with enough people to handle Hazmat (recon, research, entry, back-up, suit-out, medical monitoring, instrimentation set-up, technical decon, hazmat command, hazmat safety) and Mass Decon?

[grumpyff 1,159]

Your f**** ed. simple. There is no plan, no equipment, and most important, not enough people to cover an automatic alarm, let alone have the training to decon people, and maintain it.

Edited April 20, 2013 by grumpyff