NFPA Regulations

[x129K 1,393]

OK...so we all know the NFPA REALLY means, Not For Practical Application....but I have a question, and it may be common knowledge, but I dont know..

We go out and spend $$$ to make our gear NFPA compliant...throw "good" gear away after 10 years...ditch our salty helmets that have been with some for a career....spend money to put pretty chevrons on the apparatus...bail out kits....helmet carriers in cabs, and the list goes on and on...

We question "Why?"....and our Chiefs say "becasue the NFPA says so...."

So answer me this - why can SO many towns and cities completely ignore the NFPA manning standards? What IS the minimum staffing per rig per NFPA?

Why are we still sending career jobs out with three, two, and even ONE guy on a rig?

And it's not just the small jobs like Middletown, Kingston, and Beacon - but larger, very urban cities like Reading, Pa that see alot of fire duty. Reading, last I knew, had 2 men per apparatus...that means thier Ladders 1, 2 (reserve), and 3, roll out with a driver and a tillerman! How scary is that?

Why is this overlooked, but other, IMO trivial regs enforced without hesitation?

[SteveOFD 176]

So answer me this - why can SO many towns and cities completely ignore the NFPA manning standards? What IS the minimum staffing per rig per NFPA?

Why are we still sending career jobs out with three, two, and even ONE guy on a rig?

NFPA 1710 - Standard for the Organization and Deployment of Fire Suppression Operations, Emergency Medical Operations and Special Operations to the Public by Career Fire Departments, 2010 Edition section 5.2.3 "Operating Units - Fire company staffing requirements shall be based on minimum levels necessary for safe, effective and efficient emergency operations." Section 5.2.3.1.1 goes on to state "These companies shall be staffed with a minimum of four on duty personnel". This document can be read (but not saved, printed, etc.) at http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=1710&cookie%5Ftest=1. If you do a search for NFPA 1710 you might be able to find a link for a non-authorized version posted online.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We go out and spend $$$ to make our gear NFPA compliant...throw "good" gear away after 10 years...ditch our salty helmets that have been with some for a career....spend money to put pretty chevrons on the apparatus...bail out kits....helmet carriers in cabs, and the list goes on and on...

We question "Why?"....and our Chiefs say "becasue the NFPA says so...."

So answer me this - why can SO many towns and cities completely ignore the NFPA manning standards? What IS the minimum staffing per rig per NFPA?

Why are we still sending career jobs out with three, two, and even ONE guy on a rig?

Why is this overlooked, but other, IMO trivial regs enforced without hesitation?

Great Questions!!!

The reason we follow the minor ones is 3 fold:

1) OSHA / PESH also require us to follow NFPA Standards and they will give violations for failing to meet the minor one (but they have never enforced 1710, which they can only do under the "General Duty Clause", as there is no OSHA standard for manning. NYS DOL does not appear to be overly concerned with enforcement of the "General Duty Clause").

2) Liability - There are many documented legal cases where NFPA standards were used, but not 1 case on 1710.

3) Availablity/Liability - The minor items listed are often only available in NFPA versions or the chief must sign liability waviers to get around them. For examble we had red/white rear chevrons, when we purchased the 1st rig after the NFPA 1901 change to red / yellow our chief asked if we could keep it red/white and the manufacturer said only if he would sign a liability release. We got red/yellow.

The standard (as partially listed above) requires 3ff's and 1of per company minimum and 16 or 17 total (based on ladder ops) on the 1st alarm assignment. These numbers are based on a 2,000 sq/ft pvt. dwelling without a basement, larger structures require greater staffing.

The 2 reasons we do not enforce NFPA 1710 is 2 fold:

1) Because no department has been sued and/or lost. I always believed that if the insurance industry ever figures this one out we will be hit hard (i.e. 2 on a rig =50% complience, sue the FD for 50% of the loss).

2) 99% of Mayors, Managers, Counciles, etc. do not believe this is important so they do not fund (or cant afford to fund) 1710. The only other option for depts is CONSOLIDATION, and we all have learned that we would rather run short then go down that road.

[x129K 1,393]

Thank you Barry.

[Danger 160]

I always said this same thing, Dan! If you'll throw a fire chief in jail for 1403, why not a mayor for 1710? I've read every report on NIOSH's website and not one was attributed to 11 year old leather helmets. But many were staffing and supervision. Barry you're right and I wish the the bean counters would catch on.

I was interviewed by OSHA at a random inspection of an agency I'm no longer affiliated with. They asked how we follow 1910.134. I told them we don't. They asked how we followed 1910.146. I told them we didn't. They wrote down notes furiously. The next day I got an email from the department head congratulating us on getting a 100% on our OSHA inspection. It's a joke.

[Dinosaur 844]

How many officers/commissioners actively campaign for compliance with 1710/1720? How about telling the apparatus committee not to spec out an 8 man cab since there are never more than 3 guys in it? That'd start the ball rolling!

[Bnechis 3,961]

How many officers/commissioners actively campaign for compliance with 1710/1720? How about telling the apparatus committee not to spec out an 8 man cab since there are never more than 3 guys in it? That'd start the ball rolling!

How many officers/commissioners even acknowledge they have a staffing problem?

1firefighter per rig, 2, 3..........how about they have 6 per rig on some days/hours but other days the rig can't get out the door?

[x129K 1,393]

Cap - what is NR's staffing? (out of pure curiosity)

[Bnechis 3,961]

Cap - what is NR's staffing? (out of pure curiosity)

Currently its 27 minimum shift

2ff/1of on engines 22, 23, 24 & 25

3ff/1of on engines 21

2ff/1of or 3ff on TL11, L12 & L13

[x129K 1,393]

Wow...thats not much at all, considering. Thanks.

[v85 212]

I think minimum staffing should be 4. Meaning Driver, Officer, 2 FF's.

And on the volly departments the 2 FF's refer to interior firefighters, not exteriors, juniors, or anyone else. If the apparatus doesn't have 4, then it should only be counted on scene as a support piece.

Meaning if a box calls for 3 engines and 2 ladders, then you need three engines and two ladders PLUS the equipment that could not crew properly

[Bnechis 3,961]

Wow...thats not much at all, considering. Thanks.

There was a time not that long ago when we had a lot more.

The engines use to always have 3ff/1of (and sometimes had a 4th ff) until NYS made NR the only municipality in the state with a mandated tax cap. that dropped us from 31 to 27.

Since the tax base has not grown and unless we (local, region and state) come up with a different system to fund all services we will continue to struggle to maintain the current level.

I wrote extensively 3-4 years ago that this was coming to every FD and the only thing FD's could do is bleed to death or consolidate to maintain service levels and staffing. I see many depts that are shrinking or just managing to maintain, but one can still see the cliff is coming when the tax base will no longer support the current less.

[x129K 1,393]

........but one can still see the cliff is coming when the tax base will no longer support the current less.

No doubt....the end is near. The whole "fiscal cliff" frightens me..personally, and in emergency services, but moreso as a father of two young ones...their future is bleak at best.

ALOT of us volunteer departments are facing in the next few years tje possibility of "going paid"...which to some has such a different meaning to others...the old timers, and many current Chief Officers, Commisioners,etc, see "going paid" (a term I loathe BTW) as "paid drivers during the day"...a bandaid IMO..

"Well, the trucks will get out on first dispatch!" Bandaid! If noone can HEAR the problems of no manpower, it must not exist right?

An engine, with a just "paid driver" rolling out is a recipe for disaster, as many of us know. A bandaid with no adhesive.

My opinion is, and hopefully, there are laws preventing the random hiring of a simple paid driver, but anything less than a career firefighter, complete with an official ACADEMY training (229, not piece meal IMO) is a risk. Anyone employed in the position of firefighter obviously should be able to perform ALL capacities of the job.

Hiring retired guys (not retired firemen) to drive is silly.

[x129K 1,393]

And I am all for some sort of career staffing everywhere there is not adequate volunteers. The more jobs the better IMO....hell, who out there in vollieville wouldnt want to do this AND get paid?

Look to the future, it will be easier for our kids to get on the job, if there are more career departments. And what better job is there?

[FireMedic049 597]

So answer me this - why can SO many towns and cities completely ignore the NFPA manning standards?

Because for the most part, NFPA standards are not laws and can be ignored.

The "funny" thing about the NFPA staffing standard discussion is that most people think that the minimum recommended staffing is 1 officer and 3 firefighters. While this is technically true, if you read the standard closely you will quickly see that the minimum recommended staffing for most departments would actually be 1 officer and 5 firefighters. The standard states that response areas with "high hazard" targets should have additional staffing and the examples cited are probably pretty common for all of our response areas.

Why is this overlooked, but other, IMO trivial regs enforced without hesitation?

The primary reason NFPA staffing standards are typically ignored is likely because our local governments would rather spend the money on something else, like stuff the gets them votes or makes them look good.

As already mentioned, a lot of the "trivial regs" are complied with largely because non-NFPA versions are not available or require that liability for non-compliance shift from the manufacturer to the department.