Firefighters put out fire, miss body inside home

[DCJPells 29]

What are your thoughts. I have read a few of these over the past couple years.

http://www.khou.com/news/local/Firefighters-put-out-fire-miss-body-inside-home--184866921.html

[x129K 1,393]

This specific quote shows there was a need for a more aggressive, and thorogh overhaul / removal of items from the building.

Had that been done - perhaps the body would have been located. Very sad, and embarrassing.

“That bedroom there was the bed and a lot of furniture in there as well as a lot of clothing,” said Lt. Chad Shaw, the Harris County Fire Marshall.

*quote was from linked article, not from DCJPells post, as quoted.

And HOLY CRAP! You finally retired your salad bowl! Welcome to the new millenium!

Edited December 28, 2012 by x129K

[dwcfireman 656]

From what I can see, images from the scene show vehicles in the driveway. If the first unit(s) on scene CANNOT confirm that everyone is out of the structure, then aggressive primary and secondary searches need to be conducted to CONFIRM that everyone is out. ONLY if the structure is compromised beyond the point that would put firefighters in danger (i.e. going to an exterior operations) should any type of search be cancelled or cut short.

As far as overhaul goes, this is not the point where firefighter should be finding a body. Firefighters need to be trained to find vicitms while conducting primary and secondary searches, and rescues should be (due to training) more succesful. Overhaul is supposed to serve as the final stage of the fire fight, and this is where firefighters SHOULD be extinguishing hot spots and creating a safe environment for investigators. I do understand that there are some circumstances where victims could be missed, like in large area rooms, unreachable and confined spaces, and unusal areas (attics, basement closets, boiler rooms, etc.).

In my opinion, the reasons firefighters miss victims during their searches is due to a lack of training and the lack of experience. Some departments may not have the means to train properly, but it is important to train firefiighters in fire-like conditions to find victims. My department, for example, doesn't have the means to provide excellent in-house search and resue drills because of the facility that we have. This is where the officers have to become creative to teach the skills necessary for this function. On the other side, since fires happen ever so decreasingly, younger firefighters just don't gain the experience to conduct a thorough search. Thankfully, fires don't happen as often anymore, but on-the-job training and hands-on experience is the best way to learn. The more you do it, the better you become. Example: I'm usually on the truck, and usually end up on the roof. I can vertically ventialate any building in my sleep. But, 99% of those fires never required a search because all of the occupants were accounted for (just pointing out that some tasks are not completed because they are not necessary, which also leads to inefficiency on the fireground).

So, what do we need to do to fix this? Train more? Conduct more unnecessary searches? It's hard to say. You can train all day with the plastic Res-Q-Randy doll, but it's not the same as actually finding a victim in a raging inferno.

[RWC130 594]

Great Topic DCJPells!

dwcfireman covered it pretty well.

I agree.... aggressive primary and secondary searches need to be conducted.

TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING!

practice small and large room searches as often as possible.

[DCJPells 29]

x129k....It was time for new gear.....

I agree that under most circumstances a missed victim is not understandable. It did not go as much to say it was a Collyers Mansion situation but under those circumstances I could see there being a problem. There was evidence of the possability of person(s) being in the structure so a more thorough 2nd search needs to be done. Maintain possession of the structure and dig.

There have been several reported cases where the victims were trapped under the "stuff" in these situations without having a fire.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Collyers+Mansion&hl=en&sa=X&tbo=u&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS357US359&tbm=isch&source=univ&ei=gt_eUIDYC6Ls0QGm8YCABQ&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=826

[SageVigiles 1,194]

If the house was a serious "Collyer Mansion" or something similar, I could understand how a primary, and maybe even a secondary search might miss that. The only thing that concerns me is the article states he was found under sheetrock a few feet from his bed. Maybe the room was so messed up that you couldn't get to the bed during the fire, but if a ceiling has collapsed why wouldn't you check under it?

I think there's more to this story than what's being reported, I'll wait for the final investigation before I make any judgements.

[IzzyEng4 427]

It's very embarrassing for this department. Every vacant or unoccupied building should be considered occupied upon arrival and until the last unit or fire investigative team leaves.

Years ago there was a fatal fire in a neighboring town from me, they new they still had an occupant in the building but they could not find his remains. There was also talk that he was out of town. But the FD and FMO remained on scene and finally they were able to locate the person's corpse though it was severely unrecognizable.

Primary and secondary searches are for the initial part of any emergency call (fires, MVAs with ejections, ect.) but you should be searching during overhaul for human remains if there is any possible fatality. And like everyone stated above more training is needed for firefighters with this and preservation of evidence.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Great post. Your 99% is not accurate, while we may not need to search for life (if everyone is accounted for) we still need to search for fire (the seat of the fire) so the engine can get in and complete extingushment.

From what I can see, images from the scene show vehicles in the driveway. If the first unit(s) on scene CANNOT confirm that everyone is out of the structure, then aggressive primary and secondary searches need to be conducted to CONFIRM that everyone is out.

But, 99% of those fires never required a search because all of the occupants were accounted for (just pointing out that some tasks are not completed because they are not necessary, which also leads to inefficiency on the fireground).

[x635 4,066]

Great topic, dwc!

In regards to the Houston incident,

Spoke to a friend. As usual, the media is manipulating this situation, exeggerating what happened, and reporting based on ignorance of the fire service.

When firefighters arrived, and during the duration of the incident, it was not known if anybody who lived inside was present. The house had been "renovated" several times and was falling apart, the electricty was turned off, mail was piled up at the door, the landscaping was overgrown, and, at the time, there were no cars in the driveway. The house was an extensive Colliers Mansion-hoarding situation. The victim was buried under a huge pile of debris, includingg large parts of the structures. and his body was basically disingrated. Neighbors didn't know anybody who lived in the house, and several neighbors believed the house was vacant as multiple neigbors stated they hadn't seen anyone in months at that house. There was no sign that squatters were living in the house, as the kitchen was stripped, no food, and no running water meant no toilet. No way to find the signs of elimination. The body was found by chance by Arson Investigators following the burn pattern.

The "mother" came the day after, and immediately retained a lawyer who happened to be also on scene with a neighbor who was supposefly a client in an unrelated case...., who, in turn, called the media.

We all make mistakes. This was a crappy situation for the firefighters. The guy was dead when they got there from smoke inhalation, and with the conditions and information stated above, we can't take an entire structure apart and remove all debris during the searchs. And in Colliers Mansion conditions, it's most likely that victims may put themselves in risk of not being found during a fire. And, during the searchs, firefighters were keeping getting buried when the piles of crap that lined the hallways kept falling on them, complicating their search. Overhaul may not be extensive enough to even find any fire victim in the conditions stated above, especially when there's no one on scene or no information to find out about people living in the house (the IC followed all leads that he could get). Also, it was treated as an arson and the scene was secured until daylight the next day. When doing overhaul evidence must be preserved as best as possible.

So, instead of the media emphasizing how clutter can kill you, they turn a cheek to all the facts, glaze over what the conditions were inside the structure and blame the villians in this story....the firefighters. It's situations like this where I'd love to put the reporters and neighbors in a turnout gear and a donned SCBA and let them search through those conditions, and see what they come up with.

And really, does any firefighter want to NOT find somebody?

As for the FD, it's a really strong combination department located, like their name, is a northwestern suburb of Houston, TX. Several members are also career guys in some of the busiest companies in Houston.

http://www.northwestfiredept.com/NWSite/NwFrame.html

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Always two sides to every story, that makes significantly more sense.

[dwcfireman 656]

Great post. Your 99% is not accurate, while we may not need to search for life (if everyone is accounted for) we still need to search for fire (the seat of the fire) so the engine can get in and complete extingushment.

I know my number isn't accurate, but for 2am it seemed okay with me

It all falls back on training and knowing what you're doing inside.

[x129K 1,393]

And again - I reiterate - DONT BE AFRAID TO TAKE "CRAP" OUT OF THE HOUSE! "Dumping the tank" on the piles of clothes, couches, matresses, and stuff isnt enough sometimes. Use trash hooks, shovels, and hands to make certain!

It will help to avoid such embarassing events such as missing a body, or a rekindle.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And again - I reiterate - DONT BE AFRAID TO TAKE "CRAP" OUT OF THE HOUSE! "Dumping the tank" on the piles of clothes, couches, matresses, and stuff isnt enough sometimes. Use trash hooks, shovels, and hands to make certain!

It will help to avoid such embarassing events such as missing a body, or a rekindle.

In extensive Colliers Mansion-hoarding situations even this will not be enough. On an EMS call I had one that we were met at the front door which only opened to about 24 inchs. there was a tunnel (think hampster habitat) and we followed the patients son thru these tunnels (note: this was before OSHA Confined Space Regs). I noticed the tunnel was starting to slope up (on the staircase). We got to the master bedroom and it opened up to almost full size. We had had a critical GI Bleed and requested FD. Pt. got O2, 2 LB IV's and MAST Pants (this should help date it for some). FD arrived and we knew she would not survive the trip through the house, so a 6' x 8' "door" was cut in the 2nd floor wall (from the exterior) with a K12. Pt was removed via ladder.

Afterwards the building dept. condemed the building and the "overhaul" was done with front end loaders.

My point is we were there under non fire conditions and there is no way without being shown the tunnels we would have even found the pt. if stuff had been disturbed we would still be looking. I found it amazing that people could live that way.

[DCJPells 29]

In extensive Colliers Mansion-hoarding situations even this will not be enough. On an EMS call I had one that we were met at the front door which only opened to about 24 inchs. there was a tunnel (think hampster habitate) and we followed the patients soon thru these tunnels (note: this was before OSHA Confined Space Regs). I noticed the tunnel was starting to slope up (on the staircase). We got to the master bedroom and it opened up to almost full size. We had had a critical GI Bleed and requested FD. Pt. got O2, 2 LB IV's and MAST Pants (this should help date it for some). FD arrived and we knew she would not survive the trip through the house, so a 6' x 8' "door" was cut in the 2nd floor wall (from the exterior) with a K12. Pt was removed via ladder.

Afterwards the building dept. condemed the building and the "overhaul" was done with front end loaders.

My point is we were there under non fire conditions and there is no way without being shown the tunnels we would have even found the pt. if stuff had been disturbed we would still be looking. I found it amazing that people could live that way.

I have had similar non-fire experiences but not to your extent. Imagining it under fire conditions is frightful.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Interestingly enough, my Health Department just hired a hoarding specialist on a grant to work with The Fire Marshals, Building Officials and PD to identify these houses and get the people the help they need. Might not be a bad idea to see if your HD has the same.

Edited December 29, 2012 by SageVigiles