YFD Union Creates New Website (Yonkers CFR-D Program)

[LineCapt 134]

So, if there is a structure fire or the FD is busy in Yonkers on firematic stuff, does YFD send an Engine to cover each empty stations so that FD will be at EMS calls just as quickly?

[INIT915 1,119]

And I wasnt calling you anything. Calling someone an %*# hole and accusing someone of sounding like one are two different things.

Yes, totally different. I clearly failed to see the distinction.

I apologize that peoples words hit home, but coming from a field such as this, people should learn to have thick skin.

Everyone should have thick skin? Ironic.

And by the way, you already did interject your opinion. And theres nothing wrong with that!

If by saying I have no affiliation with either YFD or Empress, therefore no opinion means I have an opinion, then I guess your right!

[ffdude13 5]

OK, being a 25 year Yonkers paramedic ( that includes 3 years before the YFD even wanted to start coming with us on our calls), I was all set to spout off on this issue with tons of semi-intelligant comments, anecdotes, personal experiences and such that probably would have pissed of lots of folks I have respect for. But I waited. And while I waited I found this:

EVERYONE on this thread MUST listen to this. It is 20 minutes so some you short attention span types may not have the patients. But every word is riveting. It called the "The cost of a firefighter: How much is a hero worth?" It is a very interesting report. I hope the link works.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/12/18/167265874/episode-424-how-much-is-a-firefighter-worth

I would also like to redirect and add something authored by the organization that manages EMS in Contra Costa County

http://cchealth.org/ems/pdf/lafco-fire-ems-relationship-0808.pdf

[ffdude13 5]

With all due respect, that's the essence of the first response, quick response initiating CPR and Defib. Instead of having fire engines doing first response, they will now have a Paramedic doing first response.

With all due respect, CPR and Defib ARE the essence of first response, and should be done by a CFR and not a medic, so the medic may continue to drop a tube and a line. It is hard enough to deliver a shock within 90 seconds and not have interrupted resperations of more than 20 seconds when trying to hook up BVM/o2 just by fumbling through all the tubing and aed wires by yourself, and now one medic is supposed to do all this, and tube, and get a line. I would rather see 4 people set up a BVM with continious breaths and o2, and shock, and the medic can be a medic, not a CFR.

[antiquefirelt 994]

With all due respect, that's the essence of the first response, quick response initiating CPR and Defib. Instead of having fire engines doing first response, they will now have a Paramedic doing first response.

So is the assertion that a single medic is better than a company of 4? I'd be surprised if any union would advocate for their personnel to be allowed to respond alone, seems like a dangerous situation in many cases. Maybe Yonkers doesn't have the drug or crime problems we have?

[ex-commish 490]

I am not affiliated with YFD or Empress nor do I live in Yonkers and I am in no way taking sides but I just want to say if and I mean if there is friction between the unions or between members of the unions than wouldn't it be better that the two entities hash this out among themselves rather than doing it on EMTBRAVO? JMHO.

[Yfd73 6]

Actually, Empress was asked to come up with a plan, again asked by the City, to replace the first response program. The City has stated that they wanted to reduce the five man engines with four man engines, and will reconize a significant savings in labor costs, as per the city. Empress is a vendor to the City Of Yonkers, which doesn't even pay for the EMS !

State the facts, The city wants to close two companies. Making a Department that is already spread thin, even thinner.

The city knows very well Empress could never duplicate our service. Not because of the Empress employees, but simply because our services are dedicated to the residents of Yonkers. We are always within the city limits, unlike Empress, who will do what they can to make a buck. So there is no "claim" that Empress is for profit, it's the truth. You did fail to mention this "free" service you will be providing will cost the taxpayers millions of dollars. Also, "your mostly at your own cost" Haz-mat equipment was provided to you by the taxpayer, through the fire department.

As stated you'll be receiving A MEDIC, who will not be able to transport and who will not be able to provide CPR efficiently. As you emphaszed on, our very good pay, benefits and great pension ensure that our staffing leveles are well maintained. Unlike Empress, where there is constantly new faces, there is consistancy in our department. Our manning not only Gaurantees when you dial 9-1-1 you will have a quick response, but also that if additional aide is needed, it's there. What will Empress do when they are short of staff?

Many times our members have been asked to drive the bus or ride in the back because the Empress crew could not handle the situation with only two people. So when you say "we dump the patient care" on you to do the "meat and potatoes", I have to disagree. Because we're doing the "meat and potatoes" before Empress is even there. Again, this is not an attack on the crews, it merely states the truth. In fact, their Local should be concerned with the greater risks their members are going to be taking. Empress would have to fly through intersections, drive at dangerous speeds just to make it there in 8-10 minutes. Not to mention other risks like responding to projects where the YFD would send two units, or lifting heavy patients. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

I also find it ironic that you state that our full time job is fighting fires, not EMS. Yet you also state that 80% of our calls are EMS related, contradicting yourself, no?

628 is in no way attacking the Union, so please do not come on here instigating that our union is attacking the union of the Empress employees. Your post seems like more of an advertisement, scripted for you by the city, to turn the private sector unions against public sector unions. The facts are the city is breaking a contractual agreement with 628 and making an agreement with Empress without putting it out for bid. Back room deals which are all too common in Yonkers, and result in the taxpayer paying more for less. So again, please stop claiming that we are trashing another union. But if this what you must do, I guess desperate times do call for desperate measures.

[FF402 133]

yfd73 and other YFD'ers who posted, thank you for your insight. Although I still maintain some of my views, I do I have a better understanding of the "other side" now. I'm glad we had a chance to discuss this on EMTBravo, or else I would have still had my stubborn, one-sided opinion.

Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

[x129K 1,393]

Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

Until you need an endotracheal tube.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

yfd73 and other YFD'ers who posted, thank you for your insight. Although I still maintain some of my views, I do I have a better understanding of the "other side" now. I'm glad we had a chance to discuss this on EMTBravo, or else I would have still had my stubborn, one-sided opinion.

Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

One of the most ridiculous things I've read on this site. EVER! Do you really believe that?

Until you need an endotracheal tube.

Or fluids,

Or meds,

or advanced cardiac care,

or advanced intervention techniques,

or an advanced airway.

[JFLYNN 681]

State the facts, The city wants to close two companies. Making a Department that is already spread thin, even thinner. The city knows very well Empress could never duplicate our service. Not because of the Empress employees, but simply because our services are dedicated to the residents of Yonkers. We are always within the city limits, unlike Empress, who will do what they can to make a buck. So there is no "claim" that Empress is for profit, it's the truth. You did fail to mention this "free" service you will be providing will cost the taxpayers millions of dollars. Also, "your mostly at your own cost" Haz-mat equipment was provided to you by the taxpayer, through the fire department. As stated you'll be receiving A MEDIC, who will not be able to transport and who will not be able to provide CPR efficiently. As you emphaszed on, our very good pay, benefits and great pension ensure that our staffing leveles are well maintained. Unlike Empress, where there is constantly new faces, there is consistancy in our department. Our manning not only Gaurantees when you dial 9-1-1 you will have a quick response, but also that if additional aide is needed, it's there. What will Empress do when they are short of staff? Many times our members have been asked to drive the bus or ride in the back because the Empress crew could not handle the situation with only two people. So when you say "we dump the patient care" on you to do the "meat and potatoes", I have to disagree. Because we're doing the "meat and potatoes" before Empress is even there. Again, this is not an attack on the crews, it merely states the truth. In fact, their Local should be concerned with the greater risks their members are going to be taking. Empress would have to fly through intersections, drive at dangerous speeds just to make it there in 8-10 minutes. Not to mention other risks like responding to projects where the YFD would send two units, or lifting heavy patients. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt. I also find it ironic that you state that our full time job is fighting fires, not EMS. Yet you also state that 80% of our calls are EMS related, contradicting yourself, no? 628 is in no way attacking the Union, so please do not come on here instigating that our union is attacking the union of the Empress employees. Your post seems like more of an advertisement, scripted for you by the city, to turn the private sector unions against public sector unions. The facts are the city is breaking a contractual agreement with 628 and making an agreement with Empress without putting it out for bid. Back room deals which are all too common in Yonkers, and result in the taxpayer paying more for less. So again, please stop claiming that we are trashing another union. But if this what you must do, I guess desperate times do call for desperate measures.

Great post my Brother, whoever you are, lol- please let me know your identity if you don't mind. Thanks to you and Capt. Smith for the informative posts and to all of our members for not discrediting ourselves or our department by engaging in name calling and nasty, unprofessional language. Of course I would never expect our guys to sink to the level that some others on this thread have sunk to, but thanks nonetheless...

I will add a bit from my perspective- please bear with me as I am exhausted and pressed for time do I will bang this out quickly and it may be a bit rough around the edges....

I am nearing the end of my career, and frankly, I don't really think I will be personally affected if in fact the YFD First Responder Program did end, although I sincerely doubt that will happen for long, if at all, and I will explain why below. In fact, I certainly have more to lose by posting on this topic rather than remaining silent as this will likely piss some people off...oh well...

I have been a member of YFD for almost 25 years, since before we had a First Responder Program. As a very junior Firefighter I was a member of the committee which some at the time said "ruined the job" by convincing first, Local 628, and later, with the backing of L-628, helped to convince the City Fathers that this program was a good idea. The union did not come up with the idea of this program or push for it at first. You see, years ago, YFD only responded on medical runs when there was a confirmed cardiac arrest and Empress Ambulance either was not available at all, or did not have enough personnel available to perform good CPR. We responded on those fairly often. We had only very basic first aid training and CPR. There were numerous times when we performed CPR for very long periods of time before the arrival of the ambulance. Sometimes a Paramedic fly car would arrive and we would wait, and wait....sometimes not even the fly car. The Empress employees were almost always professional, dedicated, and we had a great working relationship. It sure wasn't their fault that the number of ambulances available didn't meet the need at that moment. One day, at Engine 306 where I worked, a family ran in with a baby in respiratory distress who had actually turned blue. A senior man /EMT opened the airway and started Oxygen. The baby wound up being ok. The family was irate that they had called over 20 minutes before and we had not responded (we checked the times and this was accurate). We explained that FD did not get sent to these type of calls unless it was a cardiac arrest and Empress requested us. It was very upsetting to me/us to know that people who we were sworn to protect, particularly children, could be having a life threatening medical emergency that we would be able to assist with, yet we would not be called.

I really never wanted to do emergency medical work back then- I thought of myself as a Firefighter and my idea of a Firefighter was different than what it is today. Nonetheless, because of situations such as I have described above, I agreed with some other Firefighters who advocated for us to go on these runs more regularly as was being done in other parts of the country, and seemingly very successfully. It took a couple of years, but eventually the program began. At the time, approximately 22 years ago, it is my understanding that Empress was charging the City of Yonkers a flat 1 Million per year for their services plus the ability to recoup from billing. Almost as soon as we began the First Responder Program that ccontract was re-negotiated and Empress then waived this 1 Million dollar fee. Also, there was no minimum number of ambulances that were required to be dedicated to City of Yonkers- almost as soon as YFD began going on these runs,it was noticed how very bad Empress' response times were- not due to any fault of the overworked Empress EMT's and Medics, but again, because of a lack of appropriate resources. So, very shortly because of YFD complaints, Empress agreed to keep a minimum number of ALS and BLS units in the city and this was put into their contract. I also think that it was at this time that a certain maximum average response time for Empress BLS and ALS units was placed into Empress' contract which improved things dramatically. I guess if prior to YFD involvement no one was really paying attention to ressponse times, why bother having a lot of ambulances available- the number of billable patients was not dependent on response time- they would all wait as long as it took for the ambulance so why incur the expense if no one was complaining, right?

Admittedly, I haven't gone on a First Responder rum for almost 7 years now, but I did respond on very many over the years. Almost always, I found Empress employees to be fantastic and I thought we had a great working relationship, even if there was a bit of uncomfortability at times- egos and jealousy and just basic human misunderstanding on both sides creeps in of course, however in my opinion we were mostly all regular working people who enjoyed the adrenaline rush and especially, helping people. During the approximately 15 years that I went on First Responder runs with YFD there were very many times that we arrived significantly before Empress ambulance. The large majority of time we arrived at least a couple of minutes before Empress, and often, especially when I worked on the East side of Yonkers, more than 10 minutes prior to Empress. As Captain Smith was, I was involved in 2 successful childbirths (the Moms did basically all of the work of course but they were sure glad that we were there nonetheless) before Empress arrived (not the same ones), and I and my crew initiated CPR COUNTLESS TIMES before Empress' arrival. END OF PART 1 TO BE CONTINUED

Edited December 23, 2012 by JFLYNN

[FF402 133]

Also, the people that posted 4 firefighters are better then one paramedic, I couldn't agree more. Didn't think about that fact, either.

One of the most ridiculous things I've read on this site. EVER! Do you really believe that?

I meant in terms of manpower, such as on a cardiac arrest. When YFD arrives, one can do the bagging, one can do the compressions, one could defib, etc. It's the basics that save....such as early and proper CPR. How is the Paramedic going to do that him/herself?

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

I meant in terms of manpower, such as on a cardiac arrest. When YFD arrives, one can do the bagging, one can do the compressions, one could defib, etc. It's the basics that save....such as early and proper CPR. How is the Paramedic going to do that him/herself?

I understand what you're saying but there are certain things that firemen with a CFR-D level of training just can't do whereas a paramedic's or even an EMT's skillset is much greater. But if you're just talking manpower then I see your point.

[JFLYNN 681]

Great post my Brother, whoever you are, lol- please let me know your identity if you don't mind. Thanks to you and Capt. Smith for the informative posts and to all of our members for not discrediting ourselves or our department by engaging in name calling and nasty, unprofessional language. Of course I would never expect our guys to sink to the level that some others on this thread have sunk to, but thanks nonetheless...

I will add a bit from my perspective- please bear with me as I am exhausted and pressed for time do I will bang this out quickly and it may be a bit rough around the edges....

I am nearing the end of my career, and frankly, I don't really think I will be personally affected if in fact the YFD First Responder Program did end, although I sincerely doubt that will happen for long, if at all, and I will explain why below. In fact, I certainly have more to loose by posting on this topic rather than remaining silent, as this will likely piss some people off...oh well...

I have been a member of YFD for almost 25 years, since before we had a First Responder Program. As a very junior Firefighter I was a member of the committee which some at the time said "ruined the job" by convincing first, Local 628, and later, with the backing of L-628, helped to convince the City Fathers that this program was a good idea. The union did not come up with the idea of this program or push for it at first. You see, years ago, YFD only responded on medical rums when there was a confirmed cardiac arrest and Empress Ambulance either was not available at all, or did not have enough personnel available to perform good CPR. We responded on those fairly often. We had only very basic first aid training and CPR. There were numerous times when we performed CPR for very long periods of time before the arrival of the ambulance. Sometimes a Paramedic fly car would arrive and we would wait, and wait....sometimes not even the fly car. The Empress employees were almost always professional, dedicated, and we had a great working relationship. It sure wasn't their fault that the number of ambulances available didn't meet the need at that moment. One day, at Engine 306 where I worked, a family ran in with a baby in respiratory distress who had actually turned blue. A senior man /EMT opened the airway and started Oxygen. The baby wound up being ok. The family was irate that they had called over 20 minutes before and we had not responded (we checked the times and this was accurate). We explained that FD did not get sent to these type of calls unless it was a cardiac arrest and Empress requested us. It was very upsetting to me/us to know that the people we were there to protect could be in a life threatening situation that we were able to assist with, yet we would not be called.

I really never wanted to do emergency medical work back then- I thought of myself as a Firefighter and my idea of a Firefighter was different than what it is today. Nonetheless I agreed with some other Firefighters who advocated for us to go on these runs more regularly as was being done in other parts of the country, and seemingly very successfully. It took a couple of years, but eventually the program began. At the time, approximately 22 years ago, Empress was charging the City of Yonkers a flat 1 Million per year for their services,in addition to the ability to recoup from billing. Almost as soon as we began the First Responder Program that ccontract was re-negotiated and Empress then waived this 1 Million dollar annual fee. Also, there was no minimum number of ambulances that were required to be dedicated to City of Yonkers- almost as soon as YFD began going on these runs,it was noticed how very bad Empress' response times were- not due to any fault of the overworked Empress EMT's and Medics, but again, because of a lack of appropriate resources. So, very shortly because of YFD complaints, Empress agreed to keep a minimum number of ALS and BLS units in the city and this was put into their contract, and / or I also think that it was at this time that a certain maximum average response time for Empress BLS and ALS units was placed into Empress' contract which improved things dramatically. I guess if prior to YFD involvement no one was really paying attention to response times, why bother having a lot of ambulances available- the number of billable patients was not dependent on response time- they would all wait as long as it took for the ambulance so why incur the expense if no one was complaining, right?

Admittedly, I haven't gone on a First Responder run for almost 7 years now, but I did respond on very many over the years. Almost always, I found Empress employees to be fantastic and I thought we had a great working relationship, even if there was a bit of uncomfortability at times- egos and jealousy and just basic human misunderstanding on both sides creeps in of course, however in my opinion we were mostly all regular working people who enjoyed the adrenaline rush and especially, helping people. During the approximately 15 years that I went on First Responder runs with YFD there were very many times that we arrived significantly before Empress ambulance. The large majority of time we arrived at least a couple of minutes before Empress, and occasionally, especially when I worked on the East side of Yonkers, more than 10 minutes prior to Empress. As Captain Smith was, I was involved in 2 successful childbirths (the Moms did basically all of the work of course but they were sure glad that we were there nonetheless) before Empress arrived (not the same ones), and I and my crew initiated CPR COUNTLESS TIMES before Empress' arrival. END OF PART 1 TO BE CONTINUED

Part 2- Now, to some of the misinformation that has been posted on this site in regard to the YFD First Responder Program.

Misinformation response # 1. This work constitutes a large majority of our responses, or our overall work. This is not accurate. First Responder runs account for approximately 55 % of our incidents. However, each of these incidents requires the response of only one Engine Company, and the Engine Company is generally back in service in 20 minutes or less, sometimes longer of course. Obviously to anyone familiar with the Fire Service, the typical incident any Fire Department responds to (the other approximately 45% ) involves many more apparatus and personnel for significantly longer periods of time. A First Responder run with utilizing one apparatue and 4 Firefighters for 15 minutes is one incident. A 3 Alarm Fire utilizing 14 apparatus, other vehicles, and a total of 63 or so Firefighters for six or seven hours is also one incident, kapeesh?? Furthermore, the "workload" of a Fire Department is not only responses, but also the necessary training, inspections, cleaning, maintenance of vehicles, equipment, etc.

Misinformation response # 1a. Therefore, although the rumored elimination of the First Responder Program may (not my area of expertise) allow certain contractual minimum personnel levels to no longer be adhered to, it will not obviate the necessity to have adequate Fire Companies and personnel available for Firefighting and other emergencies. Sure, no FD is as busy as twenty years ago with fire duty, and certainly not as busy as 30 or 40 years ago. Nonetheless, fires do still occur, and adequate personnel and equipment is necessary for this. There is a very valid reason that similar sized city FD's all over the U.S., and in fact the industrialized world conduct First Responder Programs- the very nature of a Fire Department requires Firefighters and their equipment to be readily available for guess what, fires! However, this ready availability of individuals who are trained to handle emergencies and have apparatus to quickly respond allows city sized Fire Departments to have personnel available to supplement the primary EMS response with First Response capability. This supplementation is able to be done by Firefighters who, for the most part, will need to be there, available, anyway! The Firefighters do not get tied up with transport (generally), transfer to the medical facility, PCR's, cleaning the ambulance, etc. So, they are able to go right back into service as soon as the patient has been placed in the ambulance, or in many cases, sooner, right?

Misinformation response # 2. Oh, here's an easy one- we have 4 Firefighters per apparatus (3 Firefighters and a Company Officer), not 5. That is the manning we have had per apparatus for over 30 years. It's hard to understand how any individual who would purport to understand the situation in Yonkers could state that this is all about reducing manning from 5 to 4 per apparatus, or words to that effect.

Misinformation response # 3. The majority of these runs are nuisance runs. Well, that depends on what you consider a nusiance run. The fact is that if we know in advance the situation is not a true medical emergency, then neither the Fire Department nor the emergency ambulance service shoud respond, right? The problem, which has been studied at the highest levels for many years, is how to deduce from the initial phone call what is and what isn't a "nuisance call"..I don't know how to quantify how many of these runs that YFD (and Empress) responds to are not true medical emergencies, but admittedly the number is significant, as it is in EMS systems almost everywhere. No one wants to respond on any type of alarm where we are not needed, and as soon as someone can find out how to deduce true emergency from nuisance run every time, please let us know!

END OF PART 2 TO BE CONTINUED

Edited December 23, 2012 by JFLYNN

[JFLYNN 681]

Part 2- Now, to some of the misinformation that has been posted on this site in regard to the YFD First Responder Program.

Misinformation response # 1. This work constitutes a large majority of our responses, or our overall work. This is not accurate. First Responder runs account for approximately 55 % of our incidents. However, each of these incidents requires the response of only one Engine Company, and the Engine Company is generally back in service in 20 minutes or less, sometimes longer of course. Obviously to anyone familiar with the Fire Service, the typical incident any Fire Department responds to (the other approximately 45% ) involves many more apparatus and personnel for significantly longer periods of time. A First Responder run with utilizing one apparatue and 4 Firefighters is one incident. A 3 Alarm Fire utilizing 14 apparatus, other vehicles, and a total of 63 or so Firefighters is also one incident, kapeesh??

Misinformation response # 1a. Therefore, although the rumored elimination of the First Responder Program may (not my area of expertise) allow certain contractual minimum personnel levels to no longer be adhered to, it will not obviate the necessity to have adequate Fire Companies and personnel available for Firefighting and other emergencies. Sure, no FD is as busy as twenty years ago with fire duty, and certainly not as busy as 30 or 40 years ago. Nonetheless, fires do still occur, and adequate personnel and equipment is necessary for this. There is a very valid reason that similar sized city FD's all over the U.S., and in fact the industrialized world conduct First Responder Programs- the very nature of a Fire Department requires Firefighters and their equipment to be readily available for guess what, fires! However, this ready availability of individuals who are trained to handle emergencies and have apparatus to quickly respond allows city sized Fire Departments to have personnel available to supplement the primary EMS response with First Response capability. This supplementation is able to be done by Firefighters who, for the most part, will need to be there, available, anyway! The Firefighters do not get tied up with transport (generally), transfer to the medical facility, PCR's, cleaning the ambulance, etc. So, they are able to go right back into service as soon as the patient has been placed in the ambulance, or in many cases, sooner, right?

Misinformation response # 2. Oh, here's an easy one- we have 4 Firefighters per apparatus (3 Firefighters and a Company Officer), not 5. That is the manning we have had per apparatus for over 30 years. It's hard to understand how any individual who would purport to understand the situation in Yonkersstate could state that this is all about reducing manning from 5 to 4 per apparatus, or words to that effect.

Misinformation response # 3. The majority of these runs are nuisance runs. Well, that depends on what you consider a nusiance run. The fact is that if we know in advance the situation is not a true medical emergency, then neither the Fire Department nor the emergency ambulance service shoud respond, right? The problem, which has been studied at the highest levels for many years, is how to deduce from the initial phone call what is and what isn't a "nuisance call"..I don't know how to quantify how many of these runs that YFD (and Empress) responds to are not true medical emergencies, but admittedly the number is significant, as it is in EMS systems almost everywhere. No one wants to respond on any type of alarm where we are not needed, and as soon as someone can find out how to deduce true emergency from nuisance run every time, please let us know!

END OF PART 2 TO BE CONTINUED

Part 3.

Disclaimer- my apologies for spelling and grammatical errors in previous and future posts- there is a lot to cover here and I don't have time or emergy to dot the i's and cross the t's- I hope I am making some sense to most of you nonetheless.

Here we go...I agree with the poster who stated that Empress is "clinically progressive" and who espoused the value of Empress' EMD pre-arrival instructions. However, I should point out that the "Haz-Mat Special Ops support to YFD" provided by Empress is done with equipment purchased with federal grant money (UASI and MMRS), and training conducted by YFD. The nature of this support is generally to provide a secondary technical decon only.

One point that was made by a brother YFD member, above, should be emphasized. Empress has so very many dedicated and professional members. However, the majority of these individuals do not spend the majority of their working lives in EMS, and particularly not with Empress, although some do. Many Empress employees move on to Fire or Police Department careers, elsewhere in emergency medicine, or on to other careers altogether. The Empress work force is nowhere as stable as YFD. This is just reality and I believe is pertinent. I won't give my opinion regarding the effect of a stable vs. a more transient workforce because it is just that, my opinion, and we all know what those are worth. However, these facts should be provided so that all of the stakeholders (particularly city residents) might be able to deternine relevance.

Edited December 23, 2012 by JFLYNN

[JFLYNN 681]

Part 3.

Disclaimer- my apologies for spelling and grammatical errors in previous and future posts- there is a lot to cover here and I don't have time or emergy to dot the i's and cross the t's- I hope I am making some sense to most of you nonetheless.

Here we go...I agree with the poster who stated that Empress is "clinically progressive" and who espoused the value of Empress' EMD pre-arrival instructions. However, I should point out that the "Haz-Mat Special Ops support to YFD" provided by Empress is done with equipment purchased with federal grant money (UASI and MMRS), and training conducted by YFD. The nature of this support is generally to provide a secondary technical decon only.

One point that was made by a brother YFD member, above, should be emphasized. Empress has so very many dedicated and professional members. However, the majority of these individuals do not spend the majority of their working lives in EMS, and particularly not with Empress, although some do. Many Empress employees move on to Fire or Police Department careers, elsewhere in emergency medicine, or on to other careers altogether. The Empress work force is nowhere as stable as YFD. This is just reality and I believe is pertinent. I won't give my opinion regarding the effect of a stable vs. a more transient workforce because it is just that, my opinion, and we all know what those are worth. However, these facts should be provided so that all of the stakeholders 9particularly city residents) might be able to deternine relevance.

PART 4

YFD has not only CFR-D's, but a very large number of EMT's, as well as several Paramedics and RN's.

[JFLYNN 681]

PART 4

YFD has not only CFR-D's, but a very large number of EMT's, as well as several Paramedics and RN's.

I'm done for tonight..when I have time I will post the conclusion to this series of sloppy, but hopefully informative posts, entitled-

THE BOTTOM LINE- Short term and long term consequences of eliminating the YFD First Responder Program, and why, if it ever is eliminated, it will inevitably be reinstituted in 9-24 months.

In the meantime my friends, please...qtip.....

Edited December 23, 2012 by JFLYNN

[x129K 1,393]

John - I re-read this whole thread, including my own comments, and I want to clarify - I was not bashing the YFD or it's men..although reading my posts it would seem otherwise. Not my intention.

I have always had the greatest respect and ADMIRATION for the YFD, as many know..I have seen some of the ballsiest firefighting, and most compansionate caregiving from your members duiring my tenure at Empress..I would love to one day go back, but as you posted, so many of us move on...But the YFD is nothing but professional. The first responder program has saved countless lives, no doubt, and I hope it does not go away...the residents of Yonkers are blessed to have it. I always enjoyed calls i would do where Roone, or Eddie R., or so many others were on scene, because I LEARNED from them.

I have an in-law who is retired from your job, and I love BS'ing with him about the 80's and 90's in Yonkers, even if I cant understand his hispanic accent when we have a few cold ones and he really gets going..LOL

Thanks for taking the time and energy to post the information you did - I know there are things you would rather be doing, but it shows your pride in your men, and the JOB.

Merry Christmas to you and the entire YFD...stay safe.

[JFLYNN 681]

John - I re-read this whole thread, including my own comments, and I want to clarify - I was not bashing the YFD or it's men..although reading my posts it would seem otherwise. Not my intention.

I have always had the greatest respect and ADMIRATION for the YFD, as many know..I have seen some of the ballsiest firefighting, and most compansionate caregiving from your members duiring my tenure at Empress..I would love to one day go back, but as you posted, so many of us move on...But the YFD is nothing but professional. The first responder program has saved countless lives, no doubt, and I hope it does not go away...the residents of Yonkers are blessed to have it. I always enjoyed calls i would do where Roone, or Eddie R., or so many others were on scene, because I LEARNED from them.

I have an in-law who is retired from your job, and I love BS'ing with him about the 80's and 90's in Yonkers, even if I cant understand his hispanic accent when we have a few cold ones and he really gets going..LOL

Thanks for taking the time and energy to post the information you did - I know there are things you would rather be doing, but it shows your pride in your men, and the JOB.

Merry Christmas to you and the entire YFD...stay safe.

No worries Brother, I qtiped. Merry Christmas and saty safe!

[sympathomedic 383]

Just a couple of things to toss into the ring:

When the YFD began the CFR program, I did see a memo posted on YFD letterhead that said they would stop sending folks on EMS runs when 6 or more companies were being used elsewhere. That was 20 years ago and may have changed. Since I think YFD sends 4 engines, two ladders and a rescue, (4+2+1=....7!) that would mean that any time there was a fire call going on that no one had freed up from, EMS ops would stop. I beleive that for some fire calls in SFR's they send less. As a guy on the street, whether FD comes or not is a total mystery. I can do two identical calls back to back, one gets FD the other not.

Sometimes the local engines are on runs or the call is near a posted ambulance, and the ambulance is way ahead of the engine. Some calls are walk-ins to firehouses and the amulance is coming from a distance. With (I think) 10 fixed engine stations, engines tend to be closer, just since there are a lot of them.

PLEASE don't frame this as a union fight. I am a steward in the IAEP Local 20. We have no dog in this fight. My guys jobs are not in danger, as EMS cal volume is always climbing and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. Additional trends- like taking pt's to thier hospital of origin, even if it is far away, working arrests on scene for longer and such means lots of work for us.

Regarding the poster c/o bad numbers from Empress: can you tell us what numbers and what they were, and what you think the real numbers are? Are we talking abut call numbers, units available, times? Maybe I can help.

About the poster c/o single responder: That is life in EMS. It is done in Eastchester, Cortlandt, Greenburgh, Yonkers, Pelham and Yorktown and many others. The FD in some of those areas sends a BLS truck with one FF on it. Many PD sectors in East Yonkers run 1 man cars, BTW.

For the guy that asked about a YFD EMS: Always possible. It would take a while to get the papers done- like a year I figure. But if you staffed it with Firemen, they cost about $150,00/year each after pay, pensions, medical etc are figured in. It takes 5 guys to have 1 guy on 24X7. So one ambulance = 10 guys. so $1.5 million/year for staffing a single ambulance. I think Yonkers would need 4-5. Then you have to send the guys to medic class, which has about 30% drop-out rate. It takes a year, and they would not be doing many fire OR ambulance calls during that time. And they guys would want more $$ for being medics. YFD I believe pays their guys who become EMT's a $3000/year stipend (corrections welcome). So figure a FF who becomes a medic would get about $10,000 more? THEN you have lawsuits. Empress indemnifies Yonkers (covers) for those. You would have to budget for lawyers and the occasional loss of a suit or a high priced settlement. Oh- and 5 $40,000 cardiac monitors and 1/2 dozen ambulances and a mechanic. THEN since you are only doing 911 calls, there would be many hours that every one of those guys and trucks would be doing nothing but soaking up payroll. AND since the NYS legislature has not moved on allowing FD's to bill since George Pataki introduced it 20 years ago, there is no way to off-set this new $10 million annual cost that by the way, will not put out a single fire- just answer EMS calls.

[INIT915 1,119]

When the YFD began the CFR program, I did see a memo posted on YFD letterhead that said they would stop sending folks on EMS runs when 6 or more companies were being used elsewhere. That was 20 years ago and may have changed. Since I think YFD sends 4 engines, two ladders and a rescue, (4+2+1=....7!) that would mean that any time there was a fire call going on that no one had freed up from, EMS ops would stop. I beleive that for some fire calls in SFR's they send less. As a guy on the street, whether FD comes or not is a total mystery. I can do two identical calls back to back, one gets FD the other not.

That's a great point, Bill. And I'm not specifically referring to YFD, many agencies have this type of arrangement, I don't even know for sure that YFD is among them, so I'll speak in generalities. How can you argue that a service is invaluable, out of reach for bean-counters when you yourself have come up with criteria when it is allowed to take a backseat. If BLS-FR is so crucial, then it should be as important as your other tasks and you must find a way to fund and deliver it. If it's so unimportant that it can be suspended routinely during times of high call volume or other conflict, then how can you argue for it so strenuously? That's not even unique to fire. Both law enforcement and EMS can and do often have similar issues.

Edited December 24, 2012 by INIT915

[sympathomedic 383]

One other small detail: Occasionally Yonkers forgets to alert Empess of a call. No too often, like daily, but probably more than weekly. I did to an auto pedestrain fatal when this happened. Empess dispatch advises us when we do get the call so we are aware that it has been delayed. I cannot over-emphasize how much I appreciate dispatchers and how little of their world I understand. My assumption is that with a never ending flood of drama coming in and being doled out, sometimes a call is dropped. In Yonkers it played a big part in a fatality from asthma at an East side school a number of years back. Now with cell-phones the TMC gets these calls adding another human link in the chain between caller and crew. I think we are up to about 50% of all 911 calls coming via cell now?

Maybe they sometimes forget to send a CFR engine as well? I have zero insight into that.

My understanding of the currant friction is this: Mayor wants to drop minimum to 48 FF's. Currant is is more like 60 FF's +/-. IN the Local 628 contract is language saying that if minimum goes below a certain number, (I am going to use 55 becasue I don't know the actual number), then the FD CFR program stops. IS THIS RIGHT? can anyone on here say?

My next question is: IF that is right, which side put it in, and with what intention? Did 628 put it in to protect itself? Did the City put it in to save manpower for fires during a time of possible reductions? And whichever side put it in, what did you negotiate to get it in?

[x129K 1,393]

Thats why I always had a handheld scanner on in the bus Billy!

And you thought it was only to buff fires...

[Bnechis 3,961]

AND since the NYS legislature has not moved on allowing FD's to bill since George Pataki introduced it 20 years ago, there is no way to off-set this new $10 million annual cost that by the way, will not put out a single fire- just answer EMS calls.

Bill, NYS law only prohibites Fire Districts (as a special taxing district) from billing for service. Municipal Fire Departments (like Yonkers, NYC, Binghamton, Troy, Albany) has always been allowed to. A number of cities in NYS bill for Ambulance service and from 1974 till about 2000 New Rochelle billed for service that was contracted to the FD (it was stopped when it was determined that a larger billing base would bring in more $).

One of the arguments for changing the law is that it is unfair that the citizens in fire districts (towns) must cover all costs while those in municipal depts (City & village). The bill you speak of has been introduced during every session of the legislature over the last 20 years, but Speaker Silver has never allowed it to the floor. Interesting since his district is is lower Manhattan and FDNY bills in his district. It has been rumored for years that he gets a high amount of campaign funds from commercial ambulance companies, could it be that they do not want compatition?

The irony here is that you live in a fire district so every call in your district is taxpayer funded and the insurance companies can not be billed to reduce your taxes.

[sympathomedic 383]

Hey Barry; Thank you for your usual wealth of knowledge. I always wondered how FDNY got around that. So a village FD in NYS can bill? Since they are not a fire DISTRICT? My understanding from doing investigatons of EMS billing in my town was that the insurance industry is the big opposer to FD billing. My guess is that in the case of ambulance services VS insurance industry, it is the insurance industry that has the money and lobbyests to push their agenda. Every call done by a NYS Fire district = a free ride for the call for the insurance providoer for that patient.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hey Barry; Thank you for your usual wealth of knowledge. I always wondered how FDNY got around that. So a village FD in NYS can bill? Since they are not a fire DISTRICT? My understanding from doing investigatons of EMS billing in my town was that the insurance industry is the big opposer to FD billing. My guess is that in the case of ambulance services VS insurance industry, it is the insurance industry that has the money and lobbyests to push their agenda. Every call done by a NYS Fire district = a free ride for the call for the insurance providoer for that patient.

Thanks,

Yes village FD's can bill since they are municipal. The NYS Association of Fire Districts and a number of assembly members who have said they would back the legislation have told me that it was Silver and it was because of the American Ambulance Association lobby.

If this is the case it means that commercial services have a big advantage over fire districts (as you had mentioned) and the insurance companies end up paying the commercial service, since the fire district cant bill and reduce the taxes.

[sympathomedic 383]

I dunno- cuts both ways. If a fire DIST could bill, I think many would turf off their EMS to a subbed out private and be done with it. Though I have been told a fire DIST cannot sub-out, they must do their primary function themselves. Any insight? That is why my FD, while hiring a private, has them do the calls in the DIStricts ambulance under the DISTrict license.

We have drifted offf topic. The point I was making is that if Yonkers FD wanted to do the full monty EMS wise, using Firemen, doing 911 only, it would be a big financial loser. Basicly about $1.75 million/year per ambulance. Yonkers billing demographic numbers are not strong. Also, if they needed mutual aide, if they did not want to call in the volunteer services that surround them, their options are quite limited. Would FDNY EMS send mutual aid into Yonkers if they were asked, anyone know?

[BrianMedic 3]

Tension in regards to Empress?

We don't save lives every day...

I've spent the majority of my career in SW yonkers and have seen good and i have seen bad when it comes to Empress. I, like JFlynn believe the 2 entities work well together (give or take a nut in a safari hat).

The "nut in a safari hat" isn't going anywhere

[JM15 386]

Just an update... Saw this on Fire Engineering

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2012/12/temporary-bans-yonkers-from-removal-of-ems.html

[Disaster_Guy 96]

Update:

(Sorry JM15 if this is the same info as the article you posted. That link was not working.)

Judge upholds Yonkers firefighters bid to stop mayor's EMS plan

January 2, 2013

YONKERS — The city firefighters union has again thwarted the mayor's plan to immediately cut its responsibilities for responding to medical emergencies.

A state Supreme Court judge in White Plains today upheld a temporary restraining order issued by another justice last Friday barring the city of Yonkers from eliminating its Fire Department's Emergency Medical Services program starting Jan. 1.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130102/NEWS/301020079/Judge-upholds-Yonkers-firefighters-bid-stop-mayor-s-EMS-plan