Discussion - Newtown, CT - School Shooting - 12/14/12

[INIT915 1,119]

IF the above turns out to be true, is it just possible Huckabee just could possibly have a point? Were those teenage video game parties actually hosting virtual "killing fests" or were the video games of the Sesame Street variety? Was the "goth" lifestyle a warning, or just one of our liberal "anything goes" lifestyle endorsements? The facts are NOT out yet......but it may turn out Huckabee had a valid point.

No, even if it turns out to be true, he has no point.

But if you believe he does, you must also agree with ALL of the following:

-9/11 was the fault of the ACLU, feminisists and gays (Rev. Jerry Falwell)

-Hurricane Katrina was the fault of gays (Pastor John Hagee)

-2010 Haiti earthquakes the reuslt of a "pact with the devil" (Rev. Pat Robertson)

Shall I go on?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

"The tech club held "LAN parties" — short for local area network — in which students would gather at a member's home, hook up their computers into a small network and play games. Gloria Milas, Joshua's mother, said Adam Lanza's mother hosted one of the parties."

""He just said he was very thin, very remote and was one of the goths," referring to a style of dress noted for a heavily black wardrobe."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/kindergarten-killers-background-parents-divorced-played-video-games-was-one-goths

IF the above turns out to be true, is it just possible Huckabee just could possibly have a point? Were those teenage video game parties actually hosting virtual "killing fests" or were the video games of the Sesame Street variety? Was the "goth" lifestyle a warning, or just one of our liberal "anything goes" lifestyle endorsements? The facts are NOT out yet......but it may turn out Huckabee had a valid point.

How quickly the ignorant and judgmental in our society come out after something like this. Does anyone else remember the accusation that the "goth" kids were responsible for Columbine? If anyone actually paid attention after the fact, it was quite clear they were not. Nor were they bullied. In fact, they WERE the bullies in their school..

When I was in high school I went to LAN parties and played violent video games. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Stop trying to find a reason why. There isn't one. There is NO way anyone is going to give you a valid reason WHY someone killed children, BABIES, in their school. An act like that is so atrocious, there's no such explanation out there, you're just going to be disappointed.

The fact is, unless you're a cop involved in this investigation, you don't know a damned thing about what happened here, neither does Mike Huckabee, neither do I. So how about shutting your mouth until the facts come out? "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[INIT915 1,119]

Stop trying to find a reason why. There isn't one. There is NO way anyone is going to give you a valid reason WHY someone killed children, BABIES, in their school. An act like that is so atrocious, there's no such explanation out there, you're just going to be disappointed.

Exactly. No one will ever be able to rationalize why this happened. It's the work of a single deranged individual. Gun control would not have stopped this, but at the same time, to blame this attack on the level of (or lack of) religiosity of a group of citizens, an entire community, or the nation, is personally outrageous to me.

[50-65 205]

Yes. That was the problem. These kindergartners weren't religious enough. Pathetic.

Mmm... not what I said. Not sure where you got that from.

[50-65 205]

No one will ever be able to rationalize why this happened.

That's because there is no rational explanation. Even if somehow they determine a motive, I don't believe anyone would consider it rational.

[INIT915 1,119]

That's because there is no rational explanation. Even if somehow they determine a motive, I don't believe anyone would consider it rational.

Exactly. So to blame it on a lack of religious conviction as Mike Hukabee did (and you endorsed) is pointless. Guess what. This is America. Not everyone believes in the same God or in some cases any God at all. So to imply you must do so to be free from bodily harm, is to me, insane.

Everyone should be safe in school, whether you believe in God or not!

[helicopper 1,050]

Do you honestly believe that's what Huckabee was trying to say? Is it possible, just possible, his comment was a general statement about our society's dramatic loss of ethics, personal responsibility, personal accountability, etc? Whether that is an appropriate comment for this particular tragedy is certainly debatable, but do you really believe he inteded to imply that "These kindergartners weren't religious enough"?

"The tech club held "LAN parties" — short for local area network — in which students would gather at a member's home, hook up their computers into a small network and play games. Gloria Milas, Joshua's mother, said Adam Lanza's mother hosted one of the parties."

""He just said he was very thin, very remote and was one of the goths," referring to a style of dress noted for a heavily black wardrobe."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/kindergarten-killers-background-parents-divorced-played-video-games-was-one-goths

IF the above turns out to be true, is it just possible Huckabee just could possibly have a point? Were those teenage video game parties actually hosting virtual "killing fests" or were the video games of the Sesame Street variety? Was the "goth" lifestyle a warning, or just one of our liberal "anything goes" lifestyle endorsements? The facts are NOT out yet......but it may turn out Huckabee had a valid point.

How many atrocities in our history have been carried out in the name of religion?

Not being religious or playing violent video games isn't what caused this massacre.

I'm reasonably confident that warning signs may have been missed but they weren't the "goth lifestyle" or choice of video games.

With regard to liberal "anything goes" lifestyles as compared with some others, I'll still pick ours hands down any day of the week. When's the last time someone was stoned to death for adultery in the US?

[adlere21 9]

So how about shutting your mouth until the facts come out? "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

OK, I'll keep my ignorant mouth shut. Obviously there is nothing wrong with children whose lives are consumed by graphic imagery of brain splattering virtual violence, afterall, you're OK, so it obviously is not harmful at all. The Goth lifestyle is also a wonderful expression personal creativity, if anything, it is a healthy manifestation. Consider this my last post on the subject, I apologize to all those enlightened folks who I've apparently offended.

[helicopper 1,050]

OK, I'll keep my ignorant mouth shut. Obviously there is nothing wrong with children whose lives are consumed by graphic imagery of brain splattering virtual violence, afterall, you're OK, so it obviously is not harmful at all. The Goth lifestyle is also a wonderful expression personal creativity, if anything, it is a healthy manifestation. Consider this my last post on the subject, I apologize to all those enlightened folks who I've apparently offended.

No need for that kind of reaction. We can agree to disagree and still have a discussion about it.

I'm just not prepared to blame video games or poor taste in clothes on what happened yesterday.

[x635 4,066]

I've got to say, the CSP PIO, Lt. J Paul Vance, is a true profesional and very articulate. The way he handles this situation, and the way he conveys information, is top notch.

Does the media really need to keep asking everyone "Is this the worst you've ever seen"? The answer, like many of their questions, is obvious. The speculation they are creating is disgusting, and numerous reports of theirs have been proven false.

I really cringe that the list of names was released, now the press is going to exploit this information. Why can't they withold that information for a few days? The only thing I am really interested in, along with many others, want to know if why?

They also need to leave these poor kids that survived this alone, instead of pounding them for soundbytes.

[tommyguy 104]

I heard a really heartbreaking report this morning. About the parents, the ones who could not find their kids or who heeded officials pleas' and went to a local firehouse rather than to the school.

They were gathered in a large room and one-by-one police officers reunited them with their kids. Only after a while there were no more reunions. The parents left were then taken to a smaller, more private room. Officers then verified, by various means, that the children confirmed dead were the children of these parents. And then they were faced with the very difficult task of having to tell the Moms and Dads the horrible news.

When my wife and I heard this earlier today I admit we both cried. We'll say a prayer for them that's for sure.

They did assign a state trooper to each set of parents to give whatever assistance you could give someone in that situation.

Absolute horror.

.

[ex-commish 490]

They also need to leave these poor kids that survived this alone, instead of pounding them for soundbytes.

I agree...bothers the hell out of me that the media is interviewing these kids. Leave them alone.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Many interesting and valid points here. I'd agree we'll never know the root cause of this or similar tragedies, but like so many other problems we must seek to identify commonalities and determine if there are factors that can lead to identification or prevention. Here's few things that have come to stick with me over the last two days:

1. How much does the media contribute to these heinous acts. I'm not blaming them, but it seems that in many (Most?) cases the perpetrators are most often described as withdrawn, quiet, "nobody's", or otherwise lacking a significant number of peer friends? Very often these people are also described as bright; genius; brilliant; etc. So we have smart kids going unknown or unrecognized. Add in some level of depression, and yes the "goth" style seems to typify the dark, quiet depressed nature of many kids. Do these kids starve the spotlight? Does the media making these tragic events so front and center provide the venue for them to be noticed?

2. While I'm an advocate for the 2nd Amendment and responsible firearms owner, I can't think of a scenario where my having to register my firearms would adversely affect me. I say this because I think that forcing some gun owners to be more responsible about how their firearms are kept would reduce unwanted use and stolen guns. Eliminating gun show loopholes to ensure all transfers were recorded and checked through NCIC (or whatever DB they use) again can't really be a huge inconvenience to legal gun owners are compared to the all out bans that are becoming more palatable every day as these tragedies mount. I fear not the U.S. government taking my legally owned firearms, I'm confident that if used against another human it'll be completely justified, but far more likely they'll never have a human in their sights. Those who fear the government will use LEO's to grab their guns fail to realize that cops, military personnel and federal agents are American citizens too, come from all walks of life in various sizes, shapes and colors and even political affiliations.

3. I too played violent video games, loved war movies and played army as a kid, none of which has made me a violent human being. That being said, there may be some merit to the point that the amount of violence seen by kids today contributes to their desensitization? We must remember that not all have the same capacity to handle what they're exposed to, hence Road Rage and seemingly these mass killings of innocent victims. Sadly, we can somewhat understand mass murder for a cause, but these total acts of senseless violence seem to prove a growing disregard for human life. Should kids be playing games that reward them for injuring and killing innocent people?

4. Lastly, maybe it's time to start meeting in the middle on some things. Our country gets weaker by the day as we deepen the great divide. Today it may be gun control, next week we'll be back to fiscal responsibility, national healthcare, religion, same sex marriage, you name it, we are so far from agreement on so many things we are a nation divided. Instead of seeing any middle ground every issue have become a larger fight. We rarely see any merit or listen long enough to hear the other point of view. It seems we all can agree that senseless tragedies need to stop, maybe we could stop the name calling long enough to see that even a few little steps toward the middle might help stem just one tragedy from ever happening. Problem is we can't see something that never happens thus we can't prove it'll work.

Wow, this soapbox is pretty high, guess I'll climb down.

Edited December 15, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[SOUSGT 357]

Will today be the day we finally have the meaningful and worthwhile conversation about firearms in this country? If not today then when? If not the day when our young and innocent lay dead in their seats and in their school then when?

Ask yourself this, are your guns really worth the lives of the innocent?

Another mass murder was attempted yesterday around the globe in China, ~20 students attacked in their school. How many of them died? The answer is zero. Zero children died yesterday in a school attach in China, you know why? Because the attack in China was committed with a knife, not a gun. For everyone that still thinks guns don't kill people, people kill people ask yourselves why the children in America died but the children in China lived? The answer is guns and firearms. People may attack people, but guns finish the job by killing.

So ask yourselves again, are your guns really worth the lives of the innocent?

Guys,

Now is not the time for any conversations about guns, disturbed people, school security or lack thereof, or any secondary topic.

It’s a time to grieve, help the survivors, the parents/ relatives of the dead and the first responders. Its time to help the children come to terms with something that could haunt them for the rest of their lives. Nothing else! Knee jerk reactions to a horrific event can wait. Let’s let the investigators do their job, and learn as much as they can. Let’s get the facts, there will be plenty of time to point fingers and express opinions later. All of our attention should be on how can we help the victims, survivors and the responders.

[x129K 1,393]

Guys,

Now is not the time for any conversations about guns, disturbed people, school security or lack thereof, or any secondary topic.

It’s a time to grieve, help the survivors, the parents/ relatives of the dead and the first responders. Its time to help the children come to terms with something that could haunt them for the rest of their lives. Nothing else! Knee jerk reactions to a horrific event can wait. Let’s let the investigators do their job, and learn as much as they can. Let’s get the facts, there will be plenty of time to point fingers and express opinions later. All of our attention should be on how can we help the victims, survivors and the responders.

A - fricken - Men!

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Smart move

[v85 212]

Guys,

Now is not the time for any conversations about guns, disturbed people, school security or lack thereof, or any secondary topic.

It’s a time to grieve, help the survivors, the parents/ relatives of the dead and the first responders. Its time to help the children come to terms with something that could haunt them for the rest of their lives. Nothing else! Knee jerk reactions to a horrific event can wait. Let’s let the investigators do their job, and learn as much as they can. Let’s get the facts, there will be plenty of time to point fingers and express opinions later. All of our attention should be on how can we help the victims, survivors and the responders.

I agree, but I don't think that those topics are mutually exclusive.

Why can't one both grieve and talk about ways to prevent the next occurance at the same time

[x4093k 654]

This is indeed a horrific incident. my prayers and condolences go to first responders, teachers, students & parents effected by this shooting. I would say the reporters and media too, but what theyre doing (Shoving cameras in these poor kids faces) is completely and utterly wrong.

R.I.P

[mark786 0]

This act was committed by a depraved individual. Were there warning signs? I don't know. The school had a security system but he forced his way in. The only better solution would have been an armed LEO in the school. His mother was a gun collector. I have no problrm with that. Were these firearms secured in the home or did he have easy access to them? Knowing his mental health issues, I hope his mother had them secured and somehow he got around that.

[Goose 188]

It's already been well articulated how devastating this whole event has been to everyone, especially family (i'm not a parent and cant even begin to imagine how i would feel if i was).

The media, generally speaking, as been horrendously irresponsible throughout this entire event. After i left work Friday evening i have made it a point to stick only to what the CSP PIO relays during briefings. As it relates to the interviewing of children, i was equally nauseated at the media (that they would hover over these vulnerable children like buzzards) and the parents for allowing their children to be interviewed. If it was me, i would secured my child, drove straight home (barring having to make any official statements to the authorities), and unplug every TV in the house. If you didn't think the media was driven by the almighty dollar before, you sure should now.

From where i sit, the gun discussion is a secondary, if not tertiary, issue. The real failure here seems to be the mental health system and more generally how this society views / deals with mental health issues (i'm not just talking about whatever the perp was suffering from but even combat vets w/ PTSD often find themselves ostracized and treated as "broken").

[JetPhoto 626]

Some discussions have been about putting a LEO in each school - who pays for it? In the end we do. I suggest get our soldiers out of other countries that do nothing but kill them dozens at a time and station one in each school.

Better yet do more to care for and determine mentally ill people.

JMO

Now on a different note, I hope a fund is established to provide years of mental health counseling for everyone in the school. It's really scary to think of how things can turn out 10 - 15 years from now.

[JetPhoto 626]

Horrific scene haunts first responders

For Ray Corbo, first assistant fire chief at Newtown Hook & Ladder, the horrific images from Friday’s shooting rampage have taken a toll.

There was the Newtown police officer who ran by him in the school’s parking lot, carrying a boy, limp in his arms.

“The police officer’s uniform had blood all over it,” Corbo said.

There were the teachers who, despite the chaos, kept order as they led their students away from the school building to the Sandy Hook firehouse.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20121216/NEWS/312160052/Horrific-scene-haunts-first-responders?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Frontpage|s

Please keep those responders from the dispatchers that took the call to the police officers, firefighters, EMS & medical examiners in your thoughts and prayers.

[x129K 1,393]

Some discussions have been about putting a LEO in each school - who pays for it? In the end we do. I suggest get our soldiers out of other countries that do nothing but kill them dozens at a time and station one in each school.

Better yet do more to care for and determine mentally ill people.

JMO

Now on a different note, I hope a fund is established to provide years of mental health counseling for everyone in the school. It's really scary to think of how things can turn out 10 - 15 years from now.

I would gladly pay more in taxes per year for a dedicated School Resource Officer in every public school in my township.

NOT an armed guard....but a uniformed POLICE OFFICER who reports in a MARKED police car that parks IFO every day.

I just cant put a pricetag on my children's safety, and ultimately, their lives.

[helicopper 1,050]

Some discussions have been about putting a LEO in each school - who pays for it? In the end we do. I suggest get our soldiers out of other countries that do nothing but kill them dozens at a time and station one in each school.

Better yet do more to care for and determine mentally ill people.

JMO

Now on a different note, I hope a fund is established to provide years of mental health counseling for everyone in the school. It's really scary to think of how things can turn out 10 - 15 years from now.

Not speaking to the issue of bringing our soldiers home (I'm 100% with you on that) but rather the thought about putting them in schools in the US... Posse Comitatus would preclude that as an option.

Regarding the cost... http://www.examiner.com/article/how-much-would-it-cost-to-put-a-cop-every-school-across-america

An interesting article on the subject.

[x129K 1,393]

And the fallout begins!

http://www.lohud.com/article/20121217/NEWS02/312170098/Astorino-spokesman-No-Westchester-gun-show-next-year?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|Frontpage

[v85 212]

The politicians who use incidents like this for personal gain IMO should be recalled ASAP.

and I would NOT want the US Military in schools. Just too much of a bad precedent constitutionally. Police okay, espeically in high schools, but never the military

[x4093k 654]

And the fallout begins!

http://www.lohud.com/article/20121217/NEWS02/312170098/Astorino-spokesman-No-Westchester-gun-show-next-year?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|Frontpage

Critics Critics Critics..... Shame Shame Shame!!!

[jack10562 414]

We are drifting off topic somewhat but using this tragedy as an excuse and in attempt to ban LEGAL gun sales is the wrong approach to ending gun violence, and is is a joke. Plus Feiner is a consummate news-hound virtuoso. If there is any way at all for him to get his name in the paper, he will find it.

As far as cancelling the show or banning future shows, that's the County's business, they own the place.

Needless to say, the bulk of show attendees are all law-abiding citizens, they undergo background and license checks before being allowed to purchase certain LEGAL firearms.

Don't like gun shows? Then don't go to one.

[ltjay157 10]

I've held my tongue long enough. No one knows why the shooter did this. Let the police finish the investigation instead of coming up with theories.

Society has changed. I don't know how/why it did. Things aren't like they used to be. I grew up playing cops & robbers, army & video games. I didn't turnout to be a sociopath.

It is tragic that this had to happen. I feel that since the media sensationalize all these shootings, you get the copycats. The media are a bunch of vultures. All they care about is ratings. The families should be allowed to mourn in peace.

Everyone that's screaming for gun control should look at the laws already in place. They just need to be enforced better. The shooter drove to the school. If we had banned cars, he never would have made it to the school (sarcasm). Anybody remember the Fast & Furious program the FEDERAL gov't implemented? The gov't wanted to track straw purchases of guns going to Mexico. It worked real well. The program got Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry killed on Dec 15, 2010. You expect the Feds to protect us with gun laws?!?! I conceal carry because the world is not full of rainbows & unicorns. The POTUS & elected officials get armed security details. Who is there to protect my family from the scum of society? That's right, me and my evil guns.

Before you all jump down my throat, let me introduce myself. I'm Justin Lurix & the 2nd Ass't Chief of the Botsford Fire Dept in Newtown, CT. I also work for a neighboring police agency that responded to the school. These are my personal feelings & have no reflection on my agencies.

[Goose 188]

I've held my tongue long enough. No one knows why the shooter did this. Let the police finish the investigation instead of coming up with theories.

Society has changed. I don't know how/why it did. Things aren't like they used to be. I grew up playing cops & robbers, army & video games. I didn't turnout to be a sociopath.

It is tragic that this had to happen. I feel that since the media sensationalize all these shootings, you get the copycats. The media are a bunch of vultures. All they care about is ratings. The families should be allowed to mourn in peace.

Everyone that's screaming for gun control should look at the laws already in place. They just need to be enforced better. The shooter drove to the school. If we had banned cars, he never would have made it to the school (sarcasm). Anybody remember the Fast & Furious program the FEDERAL gov't implemented? The gov't wanted to track straw purchases of guns going to Mexico. It worked real well. The program got Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry killed on Dec 15, 2010. You expect the Feds to protect us with gun laws?!?! I conceal carry because the world is not full of rainbows & unicorns. The POTUS & elected officials get armed security details. Who is there to protect my family from the scum of society? That's right, me and my evil guns.

Before you all jump down my throat, let me introduce myself. I'm Justin Lurix & the 2nd Ass't Chief of the Botsford Fire Dept in Newtown, CT. I also work for a neighboring police agency that responded to the school. These are my personal feelings & have no reflection on my agencies.

I hope you and your collegues are holding up well during this challenging time.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, and i think healhty discussion is, well, healhty for the country. No one should be demonized for their opinions and i'm not sure anyone here would demonize you for being "pro gun."

Personally, i really think that this incident was the result, first and foremost, of a mental health issue that was not properly addressed (i don't know or proclaim to know all the facts, but from the little i do know i have constrcuted said feeligns). As i mentioned in a previous post, this country needs to take a serious look at how it, as a collective, deals with mental health issues. Generally speaking we need to stop ostracisizing and demoralizing those with mental health issues and focus on making sure the mental health system is robust enough to afford the type and variety of treatment that Americans need. For those with more complex issues there needs to be some assurance that those people are getting the type of help they need (this probably would most effect school aged children) - i'm not advocating for a nanny state or government intrustion into every aspect of our lives, but seems more and more that Adam Lanza, at some juncture, fell off the grid.

I am an NRA member but not currently a gun owner. Guns are the easy target. Americans want a quick scapegoat be it guns, video games, etc. It seems that identifying an artifical problem makes some sleep better at night and really requires less work on society's part, because after all we are all perfect. Even if we banned all forms of firearms, went house to house and got every single last gun off the street...it doesnt take much for someone commited to enact violence to find an alternative, and argueably more devistating, means of unleashing hell. On a personal level, i don't have an issue with firearms but there is a lot out there, when it comes to the gun community, that i simply don't understand. It doesn't take but a quick search on youtube to see whats out there - things like 50 round drum mags for Glocks, Beta C mags for the AR vairients, Silencers, Beouwolfs, etc. just don't make sense to me (i just can't fathom why a civillian would need somting like that - do you really need an AR upper that will shoot a .50 and take out the engine block of a mac truck?). WIthin the same line of thought, i do understand that those things are generally benign in the hands of law obiding citizens - my only concern is that they are avilable (and really, munch of that stuff has only military application) and easily aquired by "band guys," thus giving them the ability to inflect serious damage on society and simultaniously out-gunning the police. That's the sort of stuff i think should probably be more closely regulated, at the very least.

You can legislate until you're blue in the face, but it will only effect law obiding citizens. You will never see a firearms ban in this country (thats completely out of the relm of possibility, guns are too far embedded in our culture) and as such we will continue to have gun violence - to me, its just a sad fact. To those that just came to the realization that AR-15s and their varients are a civillian model of the M16/M4 combat rifles (yes, that were designed to kill, maim and neutorlize enemy personele) and these weapons have the ability to end life...well, i just feel that illustrates how ignorant much of our society is.

I'm not sure that made any sense, i hope it did, and i hope i didn't enfuriate any avid gun owners. Just my worthless two cents.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Goose