Mutual aid?

[fdny41 11]

On October 10th when Larchmont had the fire at the car dealership at 2050 boston post road why would they call Greenville to cover Larchmont HQ and a Pelham engine to the scene when you have departments like VMFD,Harrison FD, which are closer and more familiar with the area... It just doesnt make sense to me to have MA from Greenville and Pelham come all the way to Larchmont.

Who decides which mutual aid department is covering or operating at a certain scene ?

[x4093k 654]

Check out a thread on the topic at Mutual Aid - Who Do You Call

Edited December 5, 2012 by x4093k

[firedude 985]

On October 10th when Larchmont had the fire at the car dealership at 2050 boston post road why would they call Greenville to cover Larchmont HQ and a Pelham engine to the scene when you have departments like VMFD,Harrison FD, which are closer and more familiar with the area... It just doesnt make sense to me to have MA from Greenville and Pelham come all the way to Larchmont.

Who decides which mutual aid department is covering or operating at a certain scene ?

I'd personally like to see the Deputy Fire Coordinators have a say in an agencies mutual aid run card. Hopefully this would eliminate some of the bias and calling favorites.

Edited December 6, 2012 by firedude

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'd personally like to see the Deputy Fire Coordinators have a say in an agencies mutual aid run card. Hopefully this would eliminate some of the bias and calling favorites.

1) It would more likely just change the bias.

2) Under ICS, the coordinators are "resource officers" and the AHJ is the person with the responsability for those operating at an incident.

3) If a responder or equipment are injured or lost there may be liability that under your concept would switch from the requesting agency to the county.

[fdny41 11]

Ok so Career depts will request career depts and volly depts will request volly depts for the most part

[x129K 1,393]

I'd personally like to see the Deputy Fire Coordinators have a say in an agencies mutual aid run card. Hopefully this would eliminate some of the bias and calling favorites.

I can not speak for Westchester, but I can say with absolute certainty, that in Dutchess, some departments get themselves invited to fires BY a Coordinator.

I respect and love most of them, but if you disagree with me, you are kidding yourselves.

[x635 4,066]

Simple. You know what you're getting. Usually 4 Interior certified firefighters, including a company officer, no matter what time of day or night. And you know it's going to take the volunteer at least 2-5 minutes to roll a truck, if no one is in the firehouse. Career gets out in less then 2, on average/

Nothing against the volunteers departments, but manpower attendance is a crapshoot.They could be the best department around, but daytime attendance to calls are hard. In many departments, DPW/Highway Departments staff the first due. Chances are the young guys aren't going to be around Friday or Saturday night. I know of few departments that have mutual aid standards, but more that don't. And what if that department can't get a crew? So now you'vr got an IC having to request anothers department, and he's been waiting for a company to arrive in 5 minutes, now they cant get a good head on the fire because they've been waiting for 15 minutes.

Also, career departments routinely train with each other, and are familiar with that city's challenges, firefighters, etc.

This has nothing to do with paid or volunteer. The IC wants to know what he is getting, and given FD staffing levels, it's manpower where everyone is on the same training and operation level.

If things are going to change, serious improvement needs to be made (like a college dorm program), and response attendance numbers need to be standard and quick. The way Westchester is right now, it's hard to be a volunteer.

[50-65 205]

Ok so Career depts will request career depts and volly depts will request volly depts for the most part

Uhh...... yep.

[50-65 205]

Simple. You know what you're getting. Usually 4 Interior certified firefighters, including a company officer, no matter what time of day or night. And you know it's going to take the volunteer at least 2-5 minutes to roll a truck, if no one is in the firehouse. Career gets out in less then 2, on average/

Nothing against the volunteers departments, but manpower attendance is a crapshoot.They could be the best department around, but daytime attendance to calls are hard. In many departments, DPW/Highway Departments staff the first due. Chances are the young guys aren't going to be around Friday or Saturday night. I know of few departments that have mutual aid standards, but more that don't. And what if that department can't get a crew? So now you'vr got an IC having to request anothers department, and he's been waiting for a company to arrive in 5 minutes, now they cant get a good head on the fire because they've been waiting for 15 minutes.

Also, career departments routinely train with each other, and are familiar with that city's challenges, firefighters, etc.

This has nothing to do with paid or volunteer. The IC wants to know what he is getting, and given FD staffing levels, it's manpower where everyone is on the same training and operation level.

If things are going to change, serious improvement needs to be made (like a college dorm program), and response attendance numbers need to be standard and quick. The way Westchester is right now, it's hard to be a volunteer.

And recently, a paid departments "first choice" of mutual aid from a "neighboring" paid department arrived on scene AFTER the volly departments that had also been called m/a were standing by in dept A's quarters.

And just so no one thinks that I think our s*** don't stink, we currently have one of the most rediculous and assinine m/a plans in the county.

Edited December 6, 2012 by 50-65

[fdny41 11]

VMFD should have been called to the alfredos fire on BPR with out question or at-least should have been put on standby at LFD quarters...Who would know more about Larchmonts coverage area Greenville or VMFD you decide.

[SECTMB 612]

I think the comment about knowing what you are getting is valid because as was also noted, there is no certainty regarding response level with the volunteer depts regardless of their proficiency and knowledge of the area.

That said, the choices of who are called for mutual aid are interesting in that some of the called departments are so 'small' and short staffed themselves, that in the event an all hands in their own district they'll need to bring in mutual aid themselves.

[enginekid191 0]

VMFD should have been called to the alfredos fire on BPR with out question or at-least should have been put on standby at LFD quarters...Who would know more about Larchmonts coverage area Greenville or VMFD you decide.

how do you know that since greenville is on their run card that they arent trained on the layout of the community. Squad 15 does alot of mutual aid and probably has a gps

[fdny41 11]

How could volley departments possibly survive without calling career staff to MA and Standbys?!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????

Ok would u rather have a department with local knowledge or someone who is reading a map !?!?!

[xchief2x 79]

Firedude -The deputy coordinators do not have the authority and niether does the county DES, New York is a home rule state and as already stated the AHJ has the right to call whoever they wish or set up their run card/greater alarm policy anyway they wish as well. I only wish that all Chiefs take advantage of the CAD at 60 control and set up their greater alarm response card.

[helicopper 1,050]

1) It would more likely just change the bias.

2) Under ICS, the coordinators are "resource officers" and the AHJ is the person with the responsability for those operating at an incident.

3) If a responder or equipment are injured or lost there may be liability that under your concept would switch from the requesting agency to the county.

It's not under ICS that the coordinator is a "resource officer" as that title doesn't exist in modern ICS. It's the way we apply the concept of a "deputy coordinator" locally that reduces them to an extension of 60-control instead of a command or general staff position.

Simply moving to a nearest unit type of mutual aid would reduce the biases and stop some of the folly that is our mutual aid. But of course that presupposes that all resources are standard and they're definitely not. Oh well!

[helicopper 1,050]

How could volley departments possibly survive without calling career staff to MA and Standbys?!??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????

Ok would u rather have a department with local knowledge or someone who is reading a map !?!?!

I'm not sure of your background or experience but you are treading on very thin ice with the volunteer/career comments. Please DO NOT start a career vs. volunteer debate; see the forum guidelines for an explanation on why we won't tolerate that.

As for your question...

I don't give a damn if the crew coming to help my local FD when my house is on fire is career or volunteer SO LONG AS they're properly trained and equipped to do the job and have the appropriate numbers of personnel. If it's a career truck with one FF or a volunteer truck with five guys but only one "qualified" FF, you can keep 'em.

What is the benefit of "local knowledge" when you have fire blowing out the windows in an ordinary construction building? The engine guys know how to stretch hose no matter what street they're on and the ladder guys know how to ventilate the building regardless of its address? Getting there may be a momentary issue but with GPS, computers, smart-phones, maps and, oh yeah, the radio if all else fails, they're going to get there.

[x635 4,066]

That said, the choices of who are called for mutual aid are interesting in that some of the called departments are so 'small' and short staffed themselves, that in the event an all hands in their own district they'll need to bring in mutual aid themselves.

When I worked in Hartsdale, when a mutual aid call came in, they always sent Engine 170 or Tower Ladder 15 with an officer and three firefighters. A callback is the put in place to staff the spare engine.

Also, it should be noted that 60 Control tries not to "strip down" a large region of communities. They try to make sure there's still people around in the areas handling other calls, and not leave a "blank spot" where everyone's at the fire or station coverage. Because if you go help your neighbors, the Dispatchers are still making sure that the people you primarily serve are taken care of as well.

[x635 4,066]

What is the benefit of "local knowledge" when you have fire blowing out the windows in an ordinary construction building? The engine guys know how to stretch hose no matter what street they're on and the ladder guys know how to ventilate the building regardless of its address? Getting there may be a momentary issue but with GPS, computers, smart-phones, maps and, oh yeah, the radio if all else fails, they're going to get there.

Sure, most fire companies can put out a fire. Just like the bucket brigade suppresion method, we are evolving as are communities do, and entering into a world where putting out the fire with water may not always be the best thing. What would happen if any of the departments surrounding White Plains had to fight a fire on the upper floors of one of the new high rises? And they will need to know, because White Plains with it's limited staffing, their main role would be bringing equipment up and mutual aid companies may help evacuate and extinguish the fire. Wouldn't it be helpful to know the buildings and their fire protection systems, something like that?

For instance, Greenville has a large commercial response district, with many taxpayers and shopping centers, and several car dealers. Greenville trains specifically and frequently on these types of buildings and suppresion tatics. And Greenville comes with extra manpower, usually 6 guys 24/7/365. Most IC's know this, and that's why they are such a popular request in the IC's toolbox.

Sure, essential basic knowledge can always get the job done- be ready for anything. But you can do your job safer and more effectively with more knowledge. There's no such thing as "ordinary construction" anymore.

[antiquefirelt 994]

There's no such thing as "ordinary construction" anymore.

Sorry Seth, one of my "pet peeves": Ordinary construction isn't all gone yet, but typical or common construction is all but out the window. We have frequent size-ups where wood frame buildings are reported to be ordinary. Typical yes, but Type 3: Ordinary, no.

[Bnechis 3,961]

VMFD should have been called to the alfredos fire on BPR with out question or at-least should have been put on standby at LFD quarters...Who would know more about Larchmonts coverage area Greenville or VMFD you decide.

1) Stop whining

2) In the past LFD has called VMFD both to the scene and to stand-by. Maybe there was a reason they didnt this time.

3) The only one who needs to decide is LFD.

Ok would u rather have a department with local knowledge or someone who is reading a map !?!?!

Local knowledge is nice, but I'd rather have a dept that I know is properly trained and staffed.

If they are going to the scene that the local FD is operating at, how critical is local knowledge and if they are covering the community, in most of Westchester the chance that they will even respond on a call, much less a fire is almost zero. How many fires are occuring each day in any one dept in Westchester?

[LFD34 12]

VMFD actually was called to that fire. They had an engine called to the scene, that encountered water supply issues. I believe their ladder was also on standby.

Their are decisions that are made by the chief of a department both during the preplanning and at the scene of a fire that are the responsibility of the chief and the chief alone as he becomes the person responsible. Some of these decisions include how to fight the fire, and what resources to use to figth that fire. When we give someone that responsiblity we must also give them that authority.

I think as has been reiterated many times in these posts is that if we want all resources considered equal by chief officers we have to ensure that they actually are. This includes many of the points brought here such as training, response time, manning, equipment and I'm sure a few other items.

I think one of the starting points for this would be to have the county take over all in service training in addtiion to the formal training given now. In that manner the training could be tracked and standardized.

[ex-commish 490]

I think one of the starting points for this would be to have the county take over all in service training in addtiion to the formal training given now. In that manner the training could be tracked and standardized.

There is no standardized in-service training in volunteer departments for the county to take over. Home rule allows volunteer departments to dictate training for their departments and while many have extensive in-service programs many do not and just cover OSHA.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Sure, most fire companies can put out a fire. Just like the bucket brigade suppresion method, we are evolving as are communities do, and entering into a world where putting out the fire with water may not always be the best thing. What would happen if any of the departments surrounding White Plains had to fight a fire on the upper floors of one of the new high rises? And they will need to know, because White Plains with it's limited staffing, their main role would be bringing equipment up and mutual aid companies may help evacuate and extinguish the fire. Wouldn't it be helpful to know the buildings and their fire protection systems, something like that?

For instance, Greenville has a large commercial response district, with many taxpayers and shopping centers, and several car dealers. Greenville trains specifically and frequently on these types of buildings and suppresion tatics. And Greenville comes with extra manpower, usually 6 guys 24/7/365. Most IC's know this, and that's why they are such a popular request in the IC's toolbox.

Sure, essential basic knowledge can always get the job done- be ready for anything. But you can do your job safer and more effectively with more knowledge. There's no such thing as "ordinary construction" anymore.

Whats the on duty staffing for greenville Seth? Sending a crew of 6 is a very large response for a paid or volunteer company to send in this day and age. Do they have a call back sytem or volunteers to back up the crew leaving district.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think one of the starting points for this would be to have the county take over all in service training in addtiion to the formal training given now. In that manner the training could be tracked and standardized.

There is no standardized in-service training in volunteer departments for the county to take over. Home rule allows volunteer departments to dictate training for their departments and while many have extensive in-service programs many do not and just cover OSHA.

Their is a standardized inservice program in NYS. It is required for all career ff's. And once again we circle bac to the fact that until there is one standard for all FIRE FIGHTERS we will always have problems.

Andy, I know a number that do not even meet the OSHA minimum (remember that the "8" hour does not include all of the requirements).

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Barry you can always call Engine 59 "o" sorry browned out, only 6 where there was once 16.

[SSweet88MonteSS 0]

Correct me if I am wrong (and I may very well be wrong), but once the IC contacts 60-Control for mutual aid to the scene, isn't it 60's decision with respect to who gets called?

Edited December 6, 2012 by SSweet88MonteSS

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Well your wrong. The chief from host dept has preplaned who he wants, but in large fires with lots of M/A then your right as so not to strip that part of the county as they will start to jump depts.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Correct me if I am wrong (and I may very well be wrong), but once the IC contacts 60-Control for mutual aid to the scene, isn't it 60's decision with respect to who gets called?

Well your wrong. The chief from host dept has preplaned who he wants, but in large fires with lots of M/A then your right as so not to strip that part of the county as they will start to jump depts.

1) 60 Control will follow the depts. preplan if it can. Its only 60 Control decision if the IC says: "Get me an engine or get me a truck or even get me a mid mount 95 ft tower ladder". If the IC says get me Mildew Hose companies tower ladder, then thats what 60 will call.

2) While the coordinators will try to avoid stripping part of the county, everytime there is a fire in the northeast or northwest 1/2 the tankers in the county (all in that region) are stripped.

3) If we request all the depts in our region, 60 will contact all the depts in the region. It is up to each dept. to determine (at the time of the request) if they can assist while maintaining home coverage. There are times when depts have to turn down the request because of unit activity, apparatus out of service, staffing, etc.

[SSweet88MonteSS 0]

Thanks for clarifying Barry. I was under the assumption (yes, I assumed and the inevitable happened lol) that an IC would just generically call for mutual aid, and 60 would dispatch the appropriate unit or units. I didn't realize how involved it was.

[helicopper 1,050]

Sure, most fire companies can put out a fire. Just like the bucket brigade suppresion method, we are evolving as are communities do, and entering into a world where putting out the fire with water may not always be the best thing. What would happen if any of the departments surrounding White Plains had to fight a fire on the upper floors of one of the new high rises? And they will need to know, because White Plains with it's limited staffing, their main role would be bringing equipment up and mutual aid companies may help evacuate and extinguish the fire. Wouldn't it be helpful to know the buildings and their fire protection systems, something like that?

For instance, Greenville has a large commercial response district, with many taxpayers and shopping centers, and several car dealers. Greenville trains specifically and frequently on these types of buildings and suppresion tatics. And Greenville comes with extra manpower, usually 6 guys 24/7/365. Most IC's know this, and that's why they are such a popular request in the IC's toolbox.

Sure, essential basic knowledge can always get the job done- be ready for anything. But you can do your job safer and more effectively with more knowledge. There's no such thing as "ordinary construction" anymore.

But the mutual aid resources aren't operating in a vacuum, unless they're responding all alone to an incident in another jurisdiction. The IC, with the local expertise, should direct the incoming companies and give them what they need to know.

Wouldn't it be helpful if everyone knew the buildings and their fire protection systems in their own jurisdictions before we worry about the high rises in three of the cities in the county (that are built to much more stringent codes than 90% of the buildings in the county)?