Advice, Pointers, Warnings or slaps in the head...Please.

[firemoose827 324]

I was wondering if I could please ask all of you to help me out and maybe guide me in the right direction with something that I am a little worried about in my department. Advice and pointers are welcome, but slaps in the head and talking me out of it is ok as well.

In last months meeting (our nominations) we had a few things happen; our chief of the past 6 years suddenly up and quit the entire department, and the only explanation was she was having multiple family issues she needed to deal with. Secondly; Our current 2nd assistant chief (past chief of a neighboring dept with over 30 years experience) dropped out of running from anything, stating he is tired of the issues we face as a dept and he only wants to be fire police. Leaving us with only 2 people qualified to be a chief officer; our current 1st assistant, and myself currently serving as 1st Captain.

They nominated me as 1st assistant chief. (not what I wanted, but the dept has no one else so I am running, unopposed as of last months meeting, but we still accept nominations before we vote in December)

My question/concern is this; should I be worried that 2 officers are jumping ship and not telling me much of anything? Our department is small, with 23 active members, 9 interior qualified firefighters with Firefighter I or higher, and an average of 150 calls a year. I do not want to take office as a chief officer and find out 2 months later OSHA is coming in for a spot inspection or something due to a unanimous complaint called in from an un-identified member of our community...

Whats the worst that can happen to me as a newly appointed chief officer who just transferred to this department 3 years ago? Should I decline the position or run for it? If you say to run, does anyone have some advice or tips for a new chief officer based on your experiences? Besides the two years experience as Junior Fire Department Lieutenant and Captain, I have served one year as Lt and 2 as Captain in the fire service and have 23 years experience serving my 4th department.

Im just concerned about the circumstances that brought me to this and if I should be worried or not. Im ready to be assistant chief and willing to learn everything I can, but I do not want there to be some underlying problem that coule side swipe me and ruin any chances at being chief officer again. Am I paranoid or do I have a justifiable reason to worry???

Im hoping all of the salty dog ex-chiefs and current chiefs chime in on this one and give me some well respected advice, I want to do this but I want to do it right being I might only have one chance to do it.

Thanks in advance.

Moose

[vtach39680 23]

I am not a member if the fire service but sit on the B.O.D of state and national organizations. That being said. I have always felt IMHO that if even if it is a non-paid position. If you would not be willing to "Hire" the person for a position don't give them the position because they are running unopposed. If you do not feel comfortable and would not "hire" yourself for the position then don't take it. Remain as your current officer position and leave the other vacant.

[NJMedic 96]

Ever hear of the expression “where there is smoke there’s …………! I think you have reason to worry. At best I would try to have a sit down and ask the chief and 2^nd Assistant chief and see if they are willing to disclose what they feel the problems are and what dangers they foresee if you take the position.

[cman473 56]

Every department has its own issues, EVERY department, paid or volunteer the issues exist. My advice to you, after having being in your shoes one point or another, is to run, take the position, and do what you can possibly do with it. Put your heart into what you do, train, take many classes and try to the best of your ability fix the current and your past issues. Treat people with repect and you WILL get repsect in return. Adress the problems at hand and try to repair them, your membership will be thankful...eventually. If you take heat, take it, use it as a learning tool while resolving what ver the issue at hand is.

Talk to other department heads, ask for help, guidance and you will come up with a solution. Make deciscions, make then as wise as you can and when you make a poor one, own up to it. Do not look for a scape goat, only you can admit to the unadmitable. Work with everyone, as a team, socialize as a team, do things together as a family. I am not telling you to go to someones home, that you wouldnt normally go to, but when you guys do something social, include who ever you can. Make the people that have "issues" feel included. Asking for outside help makes you a better person, doesnt make you unknowledgeable, makes you wise to realize you need additional help.

Good Luck!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I am not a member if the fire service but sit on the B.O.D of state and national organizations. That being said. I have always felt IMHO that if even if it is a non-paid position. If you would not be willing to "Hire" the person for a position don't give them the position because they are running unopposed. If you do not feel comfortable and would not "hire" yourself for the position then don't take it. Remain as your current officer position and leave the other vacant.

I see your point, but I would pose this scenario, because I honestly don't know the answer.

Assuming your rank structure is the following:

Chief of Department

1st Assistant Chief

2nd Assistant Chief

1st Captain

Since these people are resigning, your rank structure would look like this if you DIDN'T take the position

Chief of Department (If filled by the current 1st Asst. Chief)

1st Assistant Chief (Either VACANT or filled by current 1st Asst. Chief)

2nd Assistant Chief (VACANT)

1st Captain (Moose)

So here's my question. If the 1st and 2nd Asst. Chief positions are left vacant, the responsibilities of those positions still need to be taken care of, so wouldn't those fall on the Chief and the next highest officer in the chain of command (in this case, Mr. Moose,) regardless of what their official title was? Just curious what everyone's thoughts are about that.

Edited November 27, 2012 by SageVigiles

[vtach39680 23]

Yes responsibility will have have to be divvied up and the next officer down would be doing some or all of the duties of the next in line after the chief. But in my history when the actual position is still left vacant it allows you to find a qualified person. Unfortunately when positions are just filled for the sake of filling them ( I am in No Way saying your an "empty Shirt"). That organizations tend follow the same concept and before you know it or want it will become chief. Now is the time for your organization to take a good hard look at itself and think of the next 3-5 years short term and 10-15 years longer term not tomorrow

[JM15 386]

Moose,

You mentioned OSHA in your post. Is there something that you think your department is doing wrong? in NYS you would have to be looking out for PESH (NY OSHA). They also don't normally respond to complaints from the public just an FYI.

Edited November 27, 2012 by JM15

[PEMO3 523]

So here's my question. If the 1st and 2nd Asst. Chief positions are left vacant, the responsibilities of those positions still need to be taken care of, so wouldn't those fall on the Chief and the next highest officer in the chain of command (in this case, Mr. Moose,) regardless of what their official title was? Just curious what everyone's thoughts are about that.

Just one point that should be considered. The "duties" will need to be taken care of but it should be remembered that you can delegate the task or duties but you can not delegate the responsibility for the task or duty. That being said if Moose were to remain as a Captain performing the "tasks or duties" of a chief the ultimate responsibility for those "delegated "duties" would fall to the Chief not the Captain.

[vtach39680 23]

Just one point that should be considered. The "duties" will need to be taken care of but it should be remembered that you can delegate the task or duties but you can not delegate the responsibility for the task or duty. That being said if Moose were to remain as a Captain performing the "tasks or duties" of a chief the ultimate responsibility for those "delegated "duties" would fall to the Chief not the Captain

Thank you for correctly articulating the point I was trying to make. I am on the small screen of a phone.

[antiquefirelt 994]

...Leaving us with only 2 people qualified to be a chief officer; our current 1st assistant, and myself currently serving as 1st Captain.

... I do not want to take office as a chief officer and find out 2 months later OSHA is coming in for a spot inspection or something due to a unanimous complaint called in from an un-identified member of our community...

Wow, tough spot. More thoughts and questions than answers here, but you know your FD best. Short of the anonymous tip to OSHA (if it was unanimous I'd advise you to quit ) maybe you know how well you FD is doing in regard to meeting standards and providing a valuable service to the community? Are there mandatory requirements being ignored? Money issues? Are the books completely transparent? I'd think it would be very difficult to prove your negligence as a new chief if something suddenly happened in your first few months or even year, short of things all citizens would believe every firefighter or officer should know.

Sometimes the position that takes you out or your comfort zone is the most rewarding. That being said, I'm confident that over the past 27 years I've learned I don't want to be the Chief of Department yet and far less likely of a volunteer FD which I would consider more difficult to get right in many respects. There's a lot of responsibility and headaches in the chiefs ranks but likely you better than us can predict what will happen if another void goes unfilled. What are the potential outcomes if a lesser qualified person is put into the position and can you live with that?

Good luck.

Edited November 27, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I don't have any real input but to remind you of this. In the years you have been on this board, I have read several of your comparisons and complaints about your department, if you find yourself in real leadership role with energy, power and motivation to change the way your department conducts operations, you may finally be in position to make the positive changes in your department you want to see. Maybe buy that thermal imaging camera, sign some M/A pacts with surrounding departments, maybe get some dual dispatch locations.

This might be a chance for you to turn your department into the department of the future, not the department of your past.

[ex-commish 490]

Moose you have been given good advice here so I won't repeat what others have said other than to say go for it. In my experiences as a former chief you are always going to run into problems. Happens everywhere. Now you will be in the driver's seat and will have the opportunity to change things for the better. Never be afraid to reach out to the senior members of your department or network with other chiefs for advice. I wish you the best of luck!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

You already know the players and the problems, it is highly unlikely that there is a big hidden issue that could explode on you, particularly in a small dept.. Even if OSHA (PESH) did come in it is technically the "Employeer" which has to make corrections, the employeer is the Board of Fire Commissioners, Board of Ditrectors or the City or Village admin and not the Fire Chief. Volunteer leaders often leave because they have other interests, family pressures, job issues or they have just had enough (I know career chiefs who have retired for the same reasons). Don't over read it.

[LFD34 12]

It sounds like what I've been reading is that you want to help your fire department improve. As such it is not about the problems that currently exist but the willingness of the members to change and listen to your direction. All organizations require good leadership, and one of the most important attribute for leaders is the willingness to lead.

I wish you well

[CFD048 32]

Moose, you have 23 yearsin the fire service, so you have a fair amount of experience. As you have been Capt you also have leadership experience. This happened to me when i first became Chief 1 year each as Lt,Capt, Asst chief w/ 13 years in service. use the knowledge you have gained through classes and experience and don't be afraid to find a senior member to assist you. I had an ex-chief that i kept in my hip pocket for the first 2 years. he assisted me greatly on calls. you can't remenmber everything and having someone experienced to help out is invaluable, Good Luck

[x129K 1,393]

Just do it. You will regret it if you dont.

Of course - you will regret it if you do too, so dont worry.

Ahhhh....the romance of the volunteer fire service.

[x4093k 654]

Whatever choice you make will have it's ups and its downs.

Best of luck to you and your future.

[AFS1970 504]

Go for it!

As others have pointed out you seem to have the choice to either become a Chief or a Captain who is an acting Chief. Either way you get the job.

One other thing to consider, is there anyone qualified for your old Captains position that will ultimately move up? If there is than at least taking the Chief's spot will mean doing one job and not two. If there is not, and you will have to do both, well it's not possible to be inside the fire as a Captain and outside as a Chief. In that case you would need to decide which serves the department better.

I would not be worried about hidden issues too much, especially wqith the member who is a past Chief from somewhere else. I had an instructor once who was a long serving Chief in one town then moved to another town. He went in to join the local department saying he did not want to hold office, that he was happy just to be a firefighter. Then next time I saw him, he was wearing a helment that said Chief Engineer. Sometimes office is like an octopus and those damn tenticles just reach out and grab us willing or not.

Also in my past ife as a VFF, I went from Firefighter to Lieutenant, back to Firefighter then to Captain, then back to Firefighter. In the volunteer service it is sometimes a rollercoaster ride that has its ups and downs. I don't know you personally but would sometimes rather have a reluctant officer than someone who actively campaigns for the postiion.

[firemoose827 324]

I see your point, but I would pose this scenario, because I honestly don't know the answer. Assuming your rank structure is the following: Chief of Department 1st Assistant Chief 2nd Assistant Chief 1st Captain Since these people are resigning, your rank structure would look like this if you DIDN'T take the position Chief of Department (If filled by the current 1st Asst. Chief) 1st Assistant Chief (Either VACANT or filled by current 1st Asst. Chief) 2nd Assistant Chief (VACANT) 1st Captain (Moose) So here's my question. If the 1st and 2nd Asst. Chief positions are left vacant, the responsibilities of those positions still need to be taken care of, so wouldn't those fall on the Chief and the next highest officer in the chain of command (in this case, Mr. Moose,) regardless of what their official title was? Just curious what everyone's thoughts are about that.

Yes responsibility will have have to be divvied up and the next officer down would be doing some or all of the duties of the next in line after the chief. But in my history when the actual position is still left vacant it allows you to find a qualified person. Unfortunately when positions are just filled for the sake of filling them ( I am in No Way saying your an "empty Shirt"). That organizations tend follow the same concept and before you know it or want it will become chief. Now is the time for your organization to take a good hard look at itself and think of the next 3-5 years short term and 10-15 years longer term not tomorrow

Moose, You mentioned OSHA in your post. Is there something that you think your department is doing wrong? in NYS you would have to be looking out for PESH (NY OSHA). They also don't normally respond to complaints from the public just an FYI.

Yes, our current order is Chief, 1st a**, 2nd a**, 1st Capt, 2nd Capt, 1st Lt, 2nd Lt...and no, the "assistant" abbreviation is no typo, some of them have been like...donkeys...so to speak.

And yes, for a small department we have WAY too many officers positions. We can barely get people to respond to calls and they keep 7 officers...I wanted to change that too and only have the 3 chiefs and a captain.

I am willing to take the position, but this was not the way I wanted it to go down, I was kind of hoping to have someone nominate me because they felt I was worthy and experienced enough, and not because I am the only one qualified...kind of takes the pride out of it. Like one of my old departments, I found out they picked the recipient of the "Firefighter of the Year" award based on if they ever got it before or not...not because of what they accomplished during the year or if they did anything above and beyond.

I dont know of anything being done illegal or dangerous, the only reason I asked was because of the officers just leaving all of a sudden like that...that concerns me especially since they were both gung ho and die hard firefighters, living and breathing the firehouse everyday of their lives with family that supported them 100%, and now they just up and leave? With no warning or reason?

I decided, based on your advice (all of you) that I am going to accept the position and work to change things for the better. You can all count on a lot of these posts from me in the next year as I look for advice and guidance from my peers and senior firefighters! I hope you dont get sick of me.

Thank you all for the advice, and the personal messages I received from a couple of you, I will return them as well.

The current Chief (ex-chief just quit) was actually kind of forced into the spot herself 8 years ago, when there was no one that wanted the position or had the time to devote to it they made her assistant for the required year, then chief. She has been chief ever since and has done a fine job of it. She is a great firefghter and I have taken quite a few classes with her. Which is whats so puzzling about her sudden resignation...she even turned down exempt status and a leave of absence option...just quit everything. THATS what bothers me.

But, I will take it and do my best to make changes and bring the department up to par with the rest of the departments and State Standards. The toughest thing to handle now will be the change of going from interior operations to standing outside at the CP with a radio and white hat, trying to get over that will be hard, but maybe I can still slip past the chief and go inside with the crew every now and then...LOL. I will keep my black helmet in the car so no one will see me...

Thanks again to all of you, if you have any more advice please let me have it!

Moose

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Good luck Moose, you're doing it for the right reasons, I'm sure you'll make a great Chief!

[x4093k 654]

Keep us updated,Chief! Hope to hear all good news about you and your department.

[firemoose827 324]

Well, its official. Last night I was voted into the position of First Assistant Chief...but it doesnt feel right to me still. I didnt want to be the one to "fill the vacancy" because no one else was qualified...

It feels as if the new chief does not respect me as a firefighter or officer.

Last night at our regular officers meeting before the elections I brought up stuff about air quality monitoring for fireground operations, and our communities ISO rating and he looked at me like I was a retard...

But, I guess I have a year to make some changes and work to improve the department and at least start to catch us up to the rest of the world. We'll see how far I can get and how much support I will have.

Anyone have a used red dash light for sale cheap or they want to get rid of? The only thing they have to lend is a huge bar light removed from an old utility truck that would stick out either side of my car by a foot and I dont want to look like the rest of the wackers in my county!

[JM15 386]

Congrats CHIEF Moose!!

[conman 40]

Congrats Moose

[grumpyff 1,159]

Congrats Moose!! If your concerned now, to ask questions before you got elected, I think you will do fine. Never be afraid to ask. (I am learning this myself)

[SteveOFD 176]

Congratulations!!

[ex-commish 490]

Congrats!! You seem to have a big support group here. Take advantage of it.

[firemoose827 324]

Congrats!! You seem to have a big support group here. Take advantage of it.

Well, I would never take advantage of you guys, I would wine and dine you first at least...

I do have a large support group here, bigger than in my own department which makes me feel better and I appreciate all of the support and advice from you all.

Thank you!!

[LFD34 12]

Congratulations. Just remember the road of a 1,000 miles starts with the first step. Modernization takes time, start with the easy things.

[x129K 1,393]

Congratulations. Just remember the road of a 1,000 miles starts with the first step. Modernization takes time, start with the easy things.

Yep...and just think, with red lights and a siren, you'll get there faster!