High Volume Foam / F500 Drill

[Bnechis 3,961]

Today a special drill was held at the Westchester County Department of Emergency Services Fire Training Center.

The goal was to determine different ways to deliver high volumes of foam and/or F500 while maintaining a large standoff distance.

The following depts were involved:

ConEd, Millwood FD, New Rochelle FD, Pleasantville FD, White Plains FD and Westchester DES.

Procedures/equipment tested and/or reviewed:

• Around the pump foam delivery via master stream
• Foam Delivery Methods

• Transfering F500 from the county trailer directly into an engine or portable pond.
• High volume attack using a remote foam source (3% foam @ 500 gpm applied from 225 feet away, with the foam source 150 feet from the deck gun - Note: The system we were testing can place the foam source up to 3,000 feet away from the deck gun.)

The 2 1/2" line is providing a foam solution of 30gpm foam & 30gpm water

• Using 5 gal pails in a high volume system (at 500 gpm you need 1 pail every 20 seconds) NRFD's foam bin allows unopened pails to be just dropped in and they are split open and foam pick up tubes are then used in the bin,

• Using an Tower Ladder to deliver foam (3% Foam @ 500gpm from 30 - 40' elevation) Note: above that hight the back pressure prevents the eductor from picking up the foam.

I would like to thank all participants and a special thanks to Commissioner Cullen for making this drill possible.

[16fire5 693]

We have a training video that just came out and one good tip that I got from it is the practice of moving the eductor from can to can is bad. It's much better to pour the cans into a pail or garbage can since suction can be maintained. The foam bin looks interesting.

[MoFire390 118]

Every educational. Thanks for sharing capt. Hope everyone had a good day.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Captain, great pics and thanks for sharing.

Its always nice to see depts coming together for the common goal of learning and training.

Foam operations are one of those things that many of us are not well versed in (IMO) as we dont get to "play" with it all that often. Looks like this was a very successful training experience, well done.

Edited October 27, 2012 by BFD1054

[mstrang1 213]

Wait a second, Barry. Are you telling me that NRFD personnel worked hand in hand with -gasp- volunteers?!?! Were the Union reps freaking out?!?!

On a serious note, the drill sounds like it was highly successful. It always seems like if you want to do a foam drill, people are worried about environmental and financial worries more than the actual training. Maybe someone can provide, if not done already, a list of what specialized equipment was used and it's location to departments. Or at least on this website.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Foam operations are one of those things that many of us are not well versed in (IMO) as we dont get to "play" with it all that often. Looks like this was a very successful training experience, well done.

Thanks, most depts have major problems with foam operations. Partly because of lack of training and partly because very few understand both foam operations and pump operations (IMO). Most depts only train on hand line and low volume systems. I have rarely seen depts consider the need for large volume foam operations.

Wait a second, Barry. Are you telling me that NRFD personnel worked hand in hand with -gasp- volunteers?!?! Were the Union reps freaking out?!?!

What about the volunteers? I have seen countless times on this board and others that we would never work with volunteers, even after we have shown that we do, I have heard it.

On a serious note, the drill sounds like it was highly successful. It always seems like if you want to do a foam drill, people are worried about environmental and financial worries more than the actual training. Maybe someone can provide, if not done already, a list of what specialized equipment was used and it's location to departments. Or at least on this website.

It was. The financial issues are the biggest problem. The training foam (which is cheaper and environmentally friendly) used lists for $10/per gallon and we used about 450 gallons of concentrate. Part of this was due to the fact we were trying to develop policies for not just ourselves, but for all depts that respond to ConEd substations. They asked for the help as they identified issues including distances needed for safety zones.

The specialized equipment used included the WC "Foam" trailer (filled with F-500 and stationed at White Plains FD Sta #2). Note: F-500 is great for electrical equipment based fires like substations, but it is useless against fuels that contain achohol (including gasoline blended products). All of the other specialized equipment was from New Rochelle Fire Dept. All of the standard firefighting equipment (hose, monitor, etc. was provided by Pleasantville and Millwood and adapted using WCDES and NRFD adapters.

[mstrang1 213]

Cap-

I was being very sarcastic about the volunteer thing. I know we all play well together.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Cap-

I was being very sarcastic about the volunteer thing. I know we all play well together.

I know. Just felt it needed a response because too many comments have said it can not be done.

[wraftery 1,275]

A few comments through this post lead me to review rule #1 for foam ops:

DO NOT COMMENCE A FOAM OPERATION UNTIL YOU HAVE ENOUGH FOAM ON--SCENE TO FINISH THE OPERATION

If you run out of foam before the fire is completely out the fire will overcome the foam you have put down and you will have wasted your time and money.

[Bnechis 3,961]

A few comments through this post lead me to review rule #1 for foam ops:

DO NOT COMMENCE A FOAM OPERATION UNTIL YOU HAVE ENOUGH FOAM ON--SCENE TO FINISH THE OPERATION

If you run out of foam before the fire is completely out the fire will overcome the foam you have put down and you will have wasted your time and money.

You are 100% correct. Now the tough part, how many members know how to calculate this. For without doing the math you will never know till you run out. Edited October 30, 2012 by Bnechis

[wraftery 1,275]

Ah, yes, the Math. Forget any complicated formulas, you will be too shaky to punch in the numbers correctly on to your iPhone, and you will wind up with numbers like a million gallons.

Try this: Do a few foam drills and get a feel for how much fire surface area 10 gallons of foam will cover. (Use 10 gallons because it's easier to do the math in your head) When you get to the real fire, wing a guess at how many times your 10 gallon drill would take to fit into this big fire and multiply. If your fire is 10 times bigger than your 10 gallon drill, then you would need 10x10gal, or 100gal of foam. (Of course if the real fire is smaller than your 10 gal Drill fire, then just use the two cans that are on the rig....Duh!) Now, take that answer you got and multiply it by 10 again. It sounds like over-ordering foam but you will surely have enough to do the job. Even if you over-ordered, you will have to re-stock anyway because you used a lot of foam.

It's like the old NFA Fire Flow Formula. If you have a 2ft x 2ft couch cushion burning in a 1 1/2 residential dwelling that is 25 x 35, by using the formula, you will need about a gallon of water to complete extinguishment. This is normally done by the Can Man with 1 1/2 gallons left to cover rekindle. However, to put this fire out, and to comply with standards we must amass 1- 1 1/2" attack line, a backup line, a 5" supply line, and 17 people.

While you guys were out working on the hurricane, I had time to think this up. Thanks for all your hard work.

[Bnechis 3,961]

rule #1 for foam ops:

DO NOT COMMENCE A FOAM OPERATION UNTIL YOU HAVE ENOUGH FOAM ON--SCENE TO FINISH THE OPERATION

If you run out of foam before the fire is completely out the fire will overcome the foam you have put down and you will have wasted your time and money.

You are 100% correct. Now the tough part, how many members know how to calculate this. For without doing the math you will never know till you run out.

Ah, yes, the Math. Forget any complicated formulas, you will be too shaky to punch in the numbers correctly on to your iPhone, and you will wind up with numbers like a million gallons.

Try this: Do a few foam drills and get a feel for how much fire surface area 10 gallons of foam will cover. When you get to the real fire, wing a guess at how many times your 10 gallon drill would take to fit into this big fire and multiply. If your fire is 10 times bigger than your 10 gallon drill, then you would need 10x10gal, or 100gal of foam. Now, take that answer you got and multiply it by 10 again. It sounds like over-ordering foam but you will surely have enough to do the job.

While the math may be tough to do. You basicly have said get the number correct or dont do it (in your 1st post) then you say wing it. I did the math for your comparrisons and 10 gallons will work for 650 sq ft of patrolium based products. But if its an alcohol based spill you will need 6 times the foam (AR foam) or it will only cover 108 sq ft. and if its an alcohol based fire you will need 9 times or it will only cover 72 sq ft.. While this sounds like your 10 x rule it does not address if its burning in a tank, because then we need 4.3 times more

Thats 26 and 39 times (not 10 times) more foam if its an alcohol spill or fire.

Your formula for a 10 gallon x the extra 10 (same size as the training fire) or 100 gallons of foam just cost the dept $2,500 Thats kind of overkill (for a 2 bucket petrolium fire) by $2,250 and underkill for an alcohol tank fire. So go back to rule #1.

My whole point is You need to know how much you need before you start and there are a number of factors that calculate into this.

Everyone knows not to start till you have enough, but again if you do not do the math how do you know if you have enough?

And for those who need to bring the water along, you need to maintain 189gpm for 15 min or 2,800 gallons (at 3% foam solution) for the alcohol fire and 812gpm for 15 minutes or 12,000 gallons of water for an alcohol tank fire.

[MoFire390 118]

Capt the knowledge you have about this topic is fantastic. I hope one day I get the chance to meet you. You truely are an asset to this site. Thank you again for the information. Is there any material you would suggest for reading up on foam operations?

[wraftery 1,275]

A word to IC's:

If you are anywhere near New Rochelle and get a run requiring foam, special call Capt Nechis as a Technical Specialist. (And I am not kidding or being sarcastic either.)

[Bnechis 3,961]

Capt the knowledge you have about this topic is fantastic. I hope one day I get the chance to meet you. You truely are an asset to this site. Thank you again for the information. Is there any material you would suggest for reading up on foam operations?

Thanks. I have not found any specific readings, lots of articles. My best recommendation is get into NYS OFPC new Ethonol emergency course.

A word to IC's: If you are anywhere near New Rochelle and get a run requiring foam, special call Capt Nechis as a Technical Specialist. (And I am not kidding or being sarcastic either.)

Thanks Chief

[wraftery 1,275]

Oh, Capt, just so you know, that formula isn't real. I made it up as I was typing. Also the NFA formula isn't the real one either but it was just a tongue-in-cheek example of the real world.

As I said however, I want a guy like you at the CP to advise the IC of how much foam he needs (+ a safety factor), what kind of foam, and to make sure the incoming foam is compatable.