Hmmm.....Very Interesting

[wraftery 1,275]

Very interesting. And all these years we've been told how far Europe is ahead of us in firefighting tactics. I think I'll stick with America's Bravest.

http://youtu.be/LkMgThASuBQ

Edited September 30, 2012 by wraftery

[FFPCogs 863]

I will say that working with Brits out here has shown me a few of things:

1. They are far more aggressive than some of their other European counterparts

2. Gas cooling works given the right circumstances

3. Their rigs are smaller and meant to "do it all"

and

3. I too will stick with the tried and true tactics of America's Bravest

Stay Safe

ps Editing due to fat fingers, no reading glasses and an apparent inability to count....

Edited October 1, 2012 by FFPCogs

[Ladder44 73]

Very interesting. And all these years we've been told how far Europe is ahead of us in firefighting tactics. I think I'll stick with America's Bravest.

like monkeys tickling a football.........

[Atv300 69]

Hmmm it looks to me like a blitz attack until more resources get on scene. So where is that a bad thing that's what departments in the US have to and have done for ever to slow down progression until you get enough on scene to effectively fight the fire. We only see five minutes in this incident think how long it takes some areas to get equipment on scene in the states not everywhere has a full compliment of trucks engines and manpower five minutes away. From my perspective they did a great job knocking down visible fire and if your paying attention it looks like they also knocked it down enough where it's really not producing smoke now go in and mop up with proper manpower and equipment.

[firemoose827 324]

Hmmm it looks to me like a blitz attack until more resources get on scene. So where is that a bad thing that's what departments in the US have to and have done for ever to slow down progression until you get enough on scene to effectively fight the fire. We only see five minutes in this incident think how long it takes some areas to get equipment on scene in the states not everywhere has a full compliment of trucks engines and manpower five minutes away. From my perspective they did a great job knocking down visible fire and if your paying attention it looks like they also knocked it down enough where it's really not producing smoke now go in and mop up with proper manpower and equipment.

From what it looks like I agree. Looks like it started on the porch and went up the wall to the eaves, they stopped it with a quick hit of the big gun. There was not a lot of fire when they rolled up initially (in my opinion) and if they waited for more help to arrive it could have gained access to the attic and/or the second floor and started working. In the five minutes we saw, I can not say anything about this fire other than what I did. If you had more video with more info....maybe. But I think we jump to conclusions too fast on this site with limited information.

Cogs, you worked with the British over in Iraq/Afghanistan right? That must have been a good experience to work with firefighters from all over the world and I would be interested in hearing the stories. (But thats another thread! lol)

[robert benz 344]

ok videos are what they are a moment in time like a picture. I saw 10 firefighters on scene before the truck pulled up and no one stretching a line into the building. I saw at least one firefighter directing traffic. It is a huge assumption that the fire didn't extend into the building. I dont subscribe to the ends justify the means theory on firefighting. If you want to go with the blitz attack theory why wasnt a line being placed into service at the same time?

[wraftery 1,275]

Thanks DC Benz. I find it hard to believe that no one else saw what we did. No line into the front door at this point in the incident indicates to me that there was no interior attack, and I didn't see any activity even in the vicinity of the front door. Granted, the camera wasn't on the front door all the time, so some firefighters might have snuck in, but I doubt it.

We all have heard of the "post incident critique," but if I had pulled up as a DC at the point that the video ended, I believe that I (or DC Benz or Jflynn or EFDCapt115 or many other chiefs I respect) would have conducted a "mid incident critique, probably containing a few explitives. My immediate questions would ask about the lack of an interior line and was there a primary search in progress. Screw your blitz...this wasn't a blitz fire. It was a one-room bread and butter fire and if you can't handle that with an inside attack, it's time for you to re-take proby school.

Proby school is also where they teach you the priorities of any incident, the first being Life Safety. I saw no indication at all that a primary search was even being considered, much less in progress.

Ah, yes, then we have the post-incident critique. Mine would have been done immediately upon return to quarters. I believe I would have started this particular critique with the words "Captain...In my office...Close the door."

[FFPCogs 863]

Cogs, you worked with the British over in Iraq/Afghanistan right? That must have been a good experience to work with firefighters from all over the world and I would be interested in hearing the stories. (But thats another thread! lol)

Brits, Canadians, Indians, Phillipinos, Kenyans, South Africans, Sri Lankans, Somalians, Bosnians, Kosavars, Ecuadorians and Dutch...I think that's everyone. And yes there are a few good stories to tell which maybe we (and any others interested) can do one day over a few cold ones. I'm always keen to meet fellow FFs in person and share experiences, ideas and yeah a few good stories too.

[Atv300 69]

This is why I can't take this site some times God forbid someone used different tactics. There are a million different things to consider and from a video you can't see, hear or already know what's there before it catches fire. Why cut them down you don't know you can't know what's going on from a six minute video. You may see all these fire fighters but I didn't see all the packs everyone here Idk the first to say we need 4 trucks and 7 engines before we fight a trash can fire and don't forget the fast team and a rit backup. For this small snapshot in time the attack they used seemed to work. But what do I know progression is never a good thing.

[Atv300 69]

Here it is I am aggressive the guys I that are with me are aggressive heck even our drivers are aggressive and as a department we train and fight aggressive. Only I am progressive enough to say maybe the department has a reason for not getting aggressive right out the gate as I said before there are a lot of scenarios that change your tactics. Just because the only thing we know is aggressive attack doesn't mean that's the only way.I believe there is something about skinning a cat.

[robert benz 344]

This is why I can't take this site some times God forbid someone used different tactics. There are a million different things to consider and from a video you can't see, hear or already know what's there before it catches fire. Why cut them down you don't know you can't know what's going on from a six minute video. You may see all these fire fighters but I didn't see all the packs everyone here Idk the first to say we need 4 trucks and 7 engines before we fight a trash can fire and don't forget the fast team and a rit backup. For this small snapshot in time the attack they used seemed to work. But what do I know progression is never a good thing.

wow try not to take it so personal. i am not up to the task of thinking about a million things on size up, i am too old for that

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Yeah guys I don't think we should discuss the merits and pitfalls of different strategies and tactics on a firefighting site. Its much more conducive to firefighter safety and the perfection of our trade to discuss the legality of [insert random color] lights or whose new engine has the shiniest Q on the front bumper.

I doubt your department is from this town in Europe, why get so bent out of shape? There's nothing wrong with learning from other people's mistakes, particularly when you're not in danger of personally insulting anyone here on the site. Obviously a video isn't the ENTIRE operational picture of whats going on, but you can't doubt this video exemplifies some stark differences between standard firefighting here in the US as opposed to Europe. Personally I find the cultural difference when it comes to the different fire services very interesting, and definitely worth discussing.

QTIP*

*QTIP is a (possibly) registered trademark of Chief Flynn, YFD.

Edited October 2, 2012 by SageVigiles

[Atv300 69]

I am just trying to say we're so quick to say its wrong but what if it's right for them yes we should discuss all aspects but again we are so quick to judge negatively were different like I said my department would probably fight that fire totally different but on this site of supposed to be learning all I see is that department did it wrong not why it might work for them and why this department would do different.

[Atv300 69]

Yeah guys I don't think we should discuss the merits and pitfalls of different strategies and tactics on a firefighting site. Its much more conducive to firefighter safety and the perfection of our trade to discuss the legality of [insert random color] lights or whose new engine has the shiniest Q on the front bumper.

I doubt your department is from this town in Europe, why get so bent out of shape? There's nothing wrong with learning from other people's mistakes, particularly when you're not in danger of personally insulting anyone here on the site. Obviously a video isn't the ENTIRE operational picture of whats going on, but you can't doubt this video exemplifies some stark differences between standard firefighting here in the US as opposed to Europe. Personally I find the cultural difference when it comes to the different fire services very interesting, and definitely worth discussing.

QTIP*

*QTIP is a (possibly) registered trademark of Chief Flynn, YFD.

Again why is it a mistake what they did? Granted I would have done it different.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I'm speaking in generalities. Not saying this was or wasn't a mistake, from what I understand many of the European FD's run mostly defensive operations due to building construction differences, etc. What I'm saying is in response to the comment "this is why I can't take this site sometimes." I've had my department's operations picked apart as a result of videos, etc, and I really don't mind, I'm big enough to admit my mistakes and missteps and I want to see other options out there.

Like you, I would have done it differently, and that's what I mean, that's the whole purpose of this site, to exchange ideas and see what other people are doing to see if you might pick something up or shy away from a particular strategy/tactic.

Added:

The reality is that this is the world we live in: Fire, Police, EMS, hell, even public works, it doesn't matter. This is the Youtube Generation. Everything we do is going to be recorded and picked apart by someone. Personally I'd rather it be other firefighters. If I do something stupid and someone explains to me why it was stupid, then I've learned something that will make me safer. If I do something intelligent (which is rare) and someone uses that to help them mitigate an incident later on, then I've helped someone as well. Its all about exchanging information and discussion of that information.

Edited October 2, 2012 by SageVigiles

[wraftery 1,275]

I like Jflynn's "QTIP"

As the Godfather movie says "It's not personal, It's just business."

JFlynn has another one-word saying...."Crawl" Nobody in that video seemed to have any intention of going into that building and crawling around except for maybe one guy who was packing up at the end.

Lucky for the Europeans that they used up all their wood building ships, There was no wood left to build buildings.

[JFLYNN 681]

I like Jflynn's "QTIP"

As the Godfather movie says "It's not personal, It's just business."

JFlynn has another one-word saying...."Crawl" Nobody in that video seemed to have any intention of going into that building and crawling around except for maybe one guy who was packing up at the end.

Lucky for the Europeans that they used up all their wood building ships, There was no wood left to build buildings.

I like Jflynn's "QTIP"

As the Godfather movie says "It's not personal, It's just business."

JFlynn has another one-word saying...."Crawl" Nobody in that video seemed to have any intention of going into that building and crawling around except for maybe one guy who was packing up at the end.

Lucky for the Europeans that they used up all their wood building ships, There was no wood left to build buildings.

Dangit- you beat me to it! Mr. ATV is basically pleading for a "qtip", lol.

I haven't even had time to watch the video yet, but after scrolling through this thread I have a pretty good idea of what I would see (based on credible reports from several fire service experts, lol), so, rather than watch this seemingly amusing video, I think I will instead use the 5 minutes of my life to organize my sock drawer- it will be time more well spent...

I did have some pleasant conversation with several nice London Firefighters at the Tunnel to Towers Race on Sunday...I was nice...I didn't tease them about their motorcycle helmets, nor did I engage in a discussion on tactics, which most likely would have ended badly, lol.

I figured for a department that went through what they did during WW 2, they deserve a pass on questioning their questionable tactics from a wise a** U.S Fire Chief.

The rest of you on here do not, however....

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Chief, if I owe you any royalties for the use of QTIP without prior written authorization, let me know... haha.

[JFLYNN 681]

Again why is it a mistake what they did? Granted I would have done it different.

Again why is it a mistake what they did? Granted I would have done it different.

Again why is it a mistake what they did? Granted I would have done it different.

I mean this with all sincerity, and it is intended not only for you, but for many others on this site...how many Firefighting TEXTBOOKS (not magazine articles or websites, which have their own value), but TEXTBOOKS on firefighting- how many of them do you own, how many have you read from cover to cover, over and over, with numerous highlights and notes in the margins, maybe thousands of pages of notes taken from these TEXTBOOKS, as well as flash cards made, and accompanying study guides completed?

How many? I would be willing to place a wager...

This is not to discredit you or others or to be mean, but there are so many on here who simply don't know what they don't know.

If you had such strong, yet uneducated opinions, and expressed them in the kitchen of a career Fire Station (particularly any department which has some occasional fire duty), it would very quickly be "explained" to you why it would be best for you to educate yourself and gain some experience before so emphatically disagreeing with your seniors.

It's very hard to learn much when your lips are moving or, in this case, when your fingers are typing.

[Atv300 69]

I'd bet you would be wrong jflynn I try to take a balance of all that's around me experienced guys the science of fire you name it I try and throw it in the pot. I am not gonna stand on a pedestal and say my way of fighting fire should be gospel. I don't fight the same fire you do or they do. But I have to say it's clear one thing I have the respect to realize everyone is different and would rather know the Merritt is there tactics or the reason it doesn't work here there or whatever. Instead of you guys taking a minute to look at there tactics might work for them you would rather get everyone killed because your to arrogant to see your way is not the only way.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Atv300

[antiquefirelt 994]

Instead of you guys taking a minute to look at there tactics might work for them you would rather get everyone killed because your to arrogant to see your way is not the only way.

Really? That's really what you think? It sounds like you are one of the younger members of our fire service that grew up in our new kinder gentler social experiment where everyone gets a ribbon, everyone's answers have value and no one is wrong. That may be OK (though I don't believe so) in grade school and on the play ground, but you quickly learn fair is really only part of Fairy Tale, and that when you're wrong, your boss isn't happy, the client isn't happy or in the case of the Fire Service someone ends up hurt or killed.

Using the "there's more than one way to skin a cat" on fireground tactics is an excuse for being wrong, unless you can specifically detail why varying from tried and true tactics wouldn't have worked. Given what we know about the variation in the fire service hear in the US, is it so hard to beleive that a European country could have a few places where the FD performs subpar? I'll give them the fact that there's less choices and more standardization in many cases due to a nationalized fire service.

As for the tactics employed in this video or any outside in firefighting, there is little doubt that the personnel will be safer if they never go inside, but what about the occupants? Is the fire service a property protection only business? Why have lights and sirens if our highest priority is self-preservation with little to no risk? More of us die on the road than from interior firefighting.

Edited October 3, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[Atv300 69]

I am not knocking the tried and true method how is that so hard to understand I am just trying to play devils advocate. Not everything everyone it every fire can be the same and we need to learn from that not just dismiss it, pick a different day who knows they even might have done it different. That's the whole reason I am on this site to see other people's experience and knowledge I just get made when everyone would just plain write something off.

[ex-commish 490]

That's the whole reason I am on this site to see other people's experience and knowledge I just get made when everyone would just plain write something off.

ATV I think you are contradicting yourself. How can you say you come on this site to seek other people's experience and knowledge yet claim to get mad because you feel some are writing it off. ( the incident in quesiton). I have read some comments from some highly experienced officers on this issue and I think it is safe to say they know what they are talking about. Unless I missed it I have yet to see what you would do if this was your job. What would you do?

[Atv300 69]

ATV I think you are contradicting yourself. How can you say you come on this site to seek other people's experience and knowledge yet claim to get mad because you feel some are writing it off. ( the incident in quesiton). I have read some comments from some highly experienced officers on this issue and I think it is safe to say they know what they are talking about. Unless I missed it I have yet to see what you would do if this was your job. What would you do?

Honestly I can't answer that

1. I don't know the building

2. What are my resources

3. I don't know the building

4. Well you should get the picture to many Unknown variables.

If it was a similar building in my town and everything that was needed was either there or on the way. I would make aggressive interior attack and search. But once again I can't say that for that building that day I don't know and in reality no one else dose because the is no offer of these needed facts.

[JFLYNN 681]

Honestly I can't answer that

1. I don't know the building

2. What are my resources

3. I don't know the building

4. Well you should get the picture to many Unknown variables.

If it was a similar building in my town and everything that was needed was either there or on the way. I would make aggressive interior attack and search. But once again I can't say that for that building that day I don't know and in reality no one else dose because the is no offer of these needed facts.

Should I have separate drawers for my athletic socks and my dress socks? I can't decide....

[firemoose827 324]

ok videos are what they are a moment in time like a picture. I saw 10 firefighters on scene before the truck pulled up and no one stretching a line into the building. I saw at least one firefighter directing traffic. It is a huge assumption that the fire didn't extend into the building. I dont subscribe to the ends justify the means theory on firefighting. If you want to go with the blitz attack theory why wasnt a line being placed into service at the same time?

Thanks DC Benz. I find it hard to believe that no one else saw what we did. No line into the front door at this point in the incident indicates to me that there was no interior attack, and I didn't see any activity even in the vicinity of the front door. Granted, the camera wasn't on the front door all the time, so some firefighters might have snuck in, but I doubt it.

We all have heard of the "post incident critique," but if I had pulled up as a DC at the point that the video ended, I believe that I (or DC Benz or Jflynn or EFDCapt115 or many other chiefs I respect) would have conducted a "mid incident critique, probably containing a few explitives. My immediate questions would ask about the lack of an interior line and was there a primary search in progress. Screw your blitz...this wasn't a blitz fire. It was a one-room bread and butter fire and if you can't handle that with an inside attack, it's time for you to re-take proby school.

Proby school is also where they teach you the priorities of any incident, the first being Life Safety. I saw no indication at all that a primary search was even being considered, much less in progress.

Ah, yes, then we have the post-incident critique. Mine would have been done immediately upon return to quarters. I believe I would have started this particular critique with the words "Captain...In my office...Close the door."

Chiefs, I see your point and thought about it, but like I said, this is a five minute video taken from the rear (what it looks like to me) of the building...do we see what is going on around the other side? Is there a road there as well and an engine crew stretched in that way? So what I said stands, you cant acurately critique something from a short video clip taken from a balcony a half block away from one angle...Can you accurately size-up a building fire with that info? I would hope everyone would say no. So how then can we accurately judge whats happening here? That is only my opinion though and no disrespect meant, just trying to add to the discussion some food for thought.

Cogs, I would love to come down and have a few cold ones with you and hear your stories. I come down from time to time to the Port Chester area if you are close we should hook up (and anyone else that wants to).

[x129K 1,393]

I don't fight the same fire you do

Fun Fact of the day;

Back in 93, during my very short tenure at the Westchester Modular Homes plant, we had a project come through called the "Teasdale Project", which were modular homes for the City of Yonkers. They were a pain because every wall had to be double 5/8 sheetrock. We hated them, but that was the whatthey spec'ed for code.

Years later, I was doing EMS calls in those same buildings...not a straight wall to be found thanks in part to me.

So, technically, we CAN fight the same fires as there are MANY WMH dwellings in Dover.

What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing really.

[Atv300 69]

Fun Fact of the day;

Back in 93, during my very short tenure at the Westchester Modular Homes plant, we had a project come through called the "Teasdale Project", which were modular homes for the City of Yonkers. They were a pain because every wall had to be double 5/8 sheetrock. We hated them, but that was the whatthey spec'ed for code.

Years later, I was doing EMS calls in those same buildings...not a straight wall to be found thanks in part to me.

So, technically, we CAN fight the same fires as there are MANY WMH dwellings in Dover.

What does that have to do with this thread? Nothing really.

Only you Dan ha ha

[Bnechis 3,961]

Honestly I can't answer that

1. I don't know the building

2. What are my resources

3. I don't know the building

4. Well you should get the picture to many Unknown variables.

If it was a similar building in my town and everything that was needed was either there or on the way. I would make aggressive interior attack and search. But once again I can't say that for that building that day I don't know and in reality no one else dose because the is no offer of these needed facts.

Not knowing the building is not an excuse. "I am sorry sir, but we can not fight this fire with an aggressive interior attack and search because we do not know the building".......This would go over like a lead ballon.

We learn building construction to understand different types of buildings and what to expect. But no matter how aggressive a department is at building inspection and preplanning the dept will never see the inside of the majority of structures before the fire and if they do the chances that an individual firefighter will have seen it is almost 0.