Ex-Irvington firefighter wants to create 2nd fire company in village

[LTFIREPRG 154]

Would it be fair to characterize this man's complaint as being analogous to a career FF (or LEO) who wishes to remain an active employee, but doesn't want to be part of the underlying Union because he doesn't agree with it's fundraising/spending?

If a career firefighter wishes not to belong to the union, that’s his option. However he would be required to pay a percentage of dues (fee) to the union, as he is reaping the benefits of the cost incurred by the union when they negotiate on behalf of their members.

[FDNYDCHI 38]

Smokey Joe:

I am not missing the point. There are (2) issues that are going on on this message board about the patch article. The 1st one is between the following people: The village, the fire department, and with Nick. Everyone can post all they what about the law should be this or that and give your opinion on what should go down But, to resolve the issue at hand those are the 3 players.

The second issue is people are talking about "where the money" is going about donating money to the fire department. This issue is not only an IFD issue but any volunteer fire department issue. You can't tell me that every fire department uses there money for firematic stuff. You have wet-downs, annual dinners, and other stuff that clearly aren't "training or buying equipment"

If you want to change this law on the books then go talk to your elected officials

The reason why any IFD member probably will not post about the subject is due to most likely having a lawyer and once the case gets settled in a court room not in the court of public opinion

That is my 2 cents

Chris

Edited June 21, 2012 by FDNYDCHI

[JFLYNN 681]

Smokey Joe:

I am not missing the point. There are (2) issues that are going on on this message board about the patch article. The 1st one is between the following people: The village, the fire department, and with Nick. Everyone can post all they what about the law should be this or that and give your opinion on what should go down But, to resolve the issue at hand those are the 3 players.

The second issue is people are talking about "where the money" is going about donating money to the fire department. This issue is not only an IFD issue but any volunteer fire department issue. You can't tell me that every fire department uses there money for firematic stuff. You have wet-downs, annual dinners, and other stuff that clearly aren't "training or buying equipment"

If you want to change this law on the books then go talk to your elected officials

The reason why any IFD member probably will not post about the subject is due to most likely having a lawyer and once the case gets settled in a court room not in the court of public opinion

That is my 2 cents

Chris

I just think we should use every opportunity and medium available to continually get the word out to the public that when they make donations to their local volunteer fire department anywhere in New York State, the monies donated VERY RARELY IF AT ALL are used for firefighting apparatus or equipment, or legitimate training expenses, but rather these monies, contributed by hardworking taxpayers who have already contributed toward fire department budgets thought taxation, these monies donated, are used for PARTIES, and trinkets.

Whenever I discuss this with people in my community, they are almost always quite shocked to learn this. What a shame...

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I just think we should use every opportunity and medium available to continually get the word out to the public that when they make donations to their local volunteer fire department anywhere in New York State, the monies donated VERY RARELY IF AT ALL are used for firefighting apparatus or equipment, or legitimate training expenses, but rather these monies, contributed by hardworking taxpayers who have already contributed toward fire department budgets thought taxation, these monies donated, are used for PARTIES, and trinkets.

Whenever I discuss this with people in my community, they are almost always quite shocked to learn this. What a shame...

Agreed. Obviously I don't begrudge a department for holding some social events for its members, that's good for morale. But I do have a BIG problem, with a department that spends money on wetdowns, parties, etc. But won't pay for any training beyond Fire 1 and the other basic required certifications. Not that I'm saying Irvington does this, but I know a few departments that do.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

I just think we should use every opportunity and medium available to continually get the word out to the public that when they make donations to their local volunteer fire department anywhere in New York State, the monies donated VERY RARELY IF AT ALL are used for firefighting apparatus or equipment, or legitimate training expenses, but rather these monies, contributed by hardworking taxpayers who have already contributed toward fire department budgets thought taxation, these monies donated, are used for PARTIES, and trinkets.

Whenever I discuss this with people in my community, they are almost always quite shocked to learn this. What a shame...

Very good points, Chief. We need more accountability and transparency. And the message being sent to members committed to training and professionalism like Nick should be positive, rather than payback. Not for nothing but it sounds like these guys need to reevaluate their priorities.

[firecapt32 282]

Two thoughts on the subject

1- I had Nick in a few classes at the training center. A fire department could only wish for 20 or 30 more like him.

2- A fire company/ Department can raise all the funds they want and use it for anything they want as long as they adhere to the laws of new york and are honest with the community. Ex dont tell them it is TAX EXEMPT when its not.

ok one more thought any one who has taken a Fire Officer class witih me has heard the following. "if you cant do it in the library or the police station you brobely cant do it in the fire station" most if not all fire houses are public buildings-public law apply.

Irvington has a great many courageous firefighters and will work out their problems and they will continue their service in a professional manner to protect the citizens and the community and any one that happens to be in the community.

[Group42 5]

It was inappropriate to mention beer in his complaint. I believe that 66% of the Chief's in Irvington don't even drink. Irvington is a well run machine with many strict rules and protocols. There is barely a social atmosphere left in the place since the mid 1990's when everything started getting overburdened with adminstrative nonsense.

I think Nyq was wrong and should have had thicker skin. He acted like a baby and he should leave the area and take his soapbox with him.

[x129K 1,393]

It was inappropriate to mention beer in his complaint. I believe that 66% of the Chief's in Irvington don't even drink. Irvington is a well run machine with many strict rules and protocols. There is barely a social atmosphere left in the place since the mid 1990's when everything started getting overburdened with adminstrative nonsense.

I think Nyq was wrong and should have had thicker skin. He acted like a baby and he should leave the area and take his soapbox with him.

Hello 33%'er!

LOL

[jruff04 15]

I'm a member of IFD with 20 plus years and at this point if I did not have to remain a member of the company to remain in the Department I would have already left. I can already hear the company officers saying then leave. I was Chief when this incident took place. That should identify me! First I will Apoligize to Nyq for how he was treated and say I wish I could have done more for you as Chief. At least the Village waited until I was out of office to ask you to resign. It's is actually interesting how you co-existed for almost a year and a half after you resigned from the company and remained with the Department with no issues. If the company did not decide to go non profit (or make it legal) Nyq would probably still be active in the department.Why is the company opening up additional corporations now? I also will say I'm embarrassed at the way the Company states they investigated? they agreed to let the villages investigate as one company officer stated. The Company is a separate entity(With separate company officers) occupying space in a village building should they not have an obloigation(legal) to investigate all claims of misconduct, sexual harrasment etc are they exempt from EEO laws? I took this complaint to the village after I discussed it with a Village trustee who was in attendance at the meeting when Nyq made his claim (I arrived at this meeting late from work however I did hear the tape from the meeting it was disgraceful) and was told if I did not bring the complaint to the village he would have to.I was critized by some of the membership even though as a elected village official I had a legal obligation to bring these claims forward maybe the company needs additional EEO training. I know after this incident we had a couple of hours I'm not sure it's enough. At least the Village's investigation was completed almost over a year and a half later. I think we in the all volunteer services know know how hard it is to find and retain good volunteers or even get our current members to respond as much as they are need. When the Village was trying to find the law that eliminated Nyq from the from the company I made a suggestion to the village administrator and one member of the current board that would have kept these issues in house I hope they and the other board members will do all they can to help find a solution to retain all the volunteers it can. If not I see it as a huge disservice to the Village residents. To the Current Chiefs especially Chief. Ruffler and Assistant Chief DePaoli I will apoligize now for any issues I will cause with this post. I will also thank you both for giving me 110 percent as my assistant Chiefs and only hope that once this is resolved I can continue to serve you and the village residents. As many of the posts state there a many quailfied firefighters in the IFD. Why should it not do eveything it can to retain and recruit all additional members.

[CFI609D 119]

It was inappropriate to mention beer in his complaint. I believe that 66% of the Chief's in Irvington don't even drink. Irvington is a well run machine with many strict rules and protocols. There is barely a social atmosphere left in the place since the mid 1990's when everything started getting overburdened with adminstrative nonsense.

I think Nyq was wrong and should have had thicker skin. He acted like a baby and he should leave the area and take his soapbox with him.

Nick has handled himself with dignity and restraint, given that this is a situation that has been ongoing for so long. Irvington has been most fortunate to have a firefighter so dedicated to a culture of firefighter safety. You clearly do not know him or much about the circumstances if you believe he "should leave the area." He did nothing at all wrong and has worked within the chain of command. I only wish we had more people like him.

[hamwallet40 4]

i dont understand. situation? there is no situation except for all this hating on this and the patch webpages. there was an accusation and the accussed was delt with. nick resigned and after further look into New York State LAW the village attorney advised that he cannot be a fireman for the department. nick was sent letter asking to rejoin the company(if not willing to do so was asked to turn all of the departments belongings in which still has not happened). if he did rejoin it does not mean that he has to involve himself in any type of company functions. lets all sit behind computers and bad mouth this and bad mouth that. when it comes down to it Irvington Fire Department is an excellent trained department and trains more hrs a month than 90% of other departments in westchester county. One man cannot put a structure fire out himself. so enough with the hating on the entire department(some of you), and keep sitting around feeling bad for an individual that chose to resign which in the end took him out of the game. Come on man!! Keep beating the dead horse boys. Good talk.

[FDNYDCHI 38]

I have been reading the post's still and it seems that people are beating this like a dead horse. I have to say when I was with the IFD There are many standup guys (IE Chef ruffler, and the past chiefs).

Can we please move on to something else???

Chris Moran

ex-IFD member 1996-2007

[JFLYNN 681]

I have been reading the post's still and it seems that people are beating this like a dead horse. I have to say when I was with the IFD There are many standup guys (IE Chef ruffler, and the past chiefs).

Can we please move on to something else???

Chris Moran

ex-IFD member 1996-2007

I disagree Chris, respectfully. I think it is very important that we continue to take opportunities when available to educate the public concerning the fact that monies which are donated to volunteer fire departments rarely, if ever, are used for purchase of firefighting equipment, or for training, or such purposes, but rather the monies people donate to volunteer fire departments are used for parties, extravagant dinners, vacations and excursions, etc.

Also, it is important to continue to emphasize that although there are lots of dedicated volunteer firefighters, such as Nick, who want to do the right thing in regard to being trained, prepared, and ACCOUNTABLE, there are many other volunteer firefighters who take advantage of the system, collect pensions and other perks,use the firehouses as a social club, and who have extremely little legitimate training, are unable to provide the service they claim they provide, and are basically accountable to no one.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

I disagree Chris, respectfully. I think it is very important that we continue to take opportunities when available to educate the public concerning the fact that monies which are donated to volunteer fire departments rarely, if ever, are used for purchase of firefighting equipment, or for training, or such purposes, but rather the monies people donate to volunteer fire departments are used for parties, extravagant dinners, vacations and excursions, etc.

Also, it is important to continue to emphasize that although there are lots of dedicated volunteer firefighters, such as Nick, who want to do the right thing in regard to being trained, prepared, and ACCOUNTABLE, there are many other volunteer firefighters who take advantage of the system, collect pensions and other perks,use the firehouses as a social club, and who have extremely little legitimate training, are unable to provide the service they claim they provide, and are basically accountable to no one.

Well stated chief. The company leaders in many NYS villages just dont seem to get it do they? This is not there money to play around with. Meanwhile they b**** about retention but when they get a standup guy like Nick they chase him away. Go figure.

[16fire5 693]

Irvington Fire Department is an excellent trained department and trains more hrs a month than 90% of other departments in westchester county

I don't know much about Irvington Fire Department but I don't know how you could have the knowledge of the Westchester Department's to make such a statement. Add that to the fact that there are 4 fully career departments and more than that mostly career departments who train everyday. No offense but it irks me when people make statements like this that they have no factual evidence to base it off.

[firemn23 8]

I guess when I get a call from a career fire department asking for a donation I shouldn't assume parties aren't held all conferences attended do not involve partying and other activities don't happen with their money

[x129K 1,393]

No offense but it irks me when people make statements like this that they have no factual evidence to base it off.

True Story.

[gamewell45 258]

I guess when I get a call from a career fire department asking for a donation I shouldn't assume parties aren't held all conferences attended do not involve partying and other activities don't happen with their money

Perhaps or they might be using monies collected from union dues from the membership whether or not each member approves or in fact know's about it in the first place.

[Remember585 815]

And, let's be honest. How many people donate money not only to volunteer fire departments, but other charities, not because they want to support them, but they're dying to get some tax breaks?

The people donating their hard-earned money to their local volunteer fire departments are doing one of the following;

1. Thanking those that have helped them at some point in time.

2. Thanking those that may have to help them at some point in time.

3. Want to feel good about themselves.

4. Want a tax break.

5. Are members themselves.

6. Are family of members in their local FD.

7. Can't think of a way to say no to soliciting firefighters, so throw them a couple bucks so we leave them alone.

If I missed anything, please, feel free to add to this list. But in the 20 years I have been around, this seems to be the key reasons people continue to donate.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Bottom line: there are two problems here:

1) lack of accountability and mismanagement of donations by fire company (chief probably has zero csay)

2) abusive behavior directed towards and active member

Even if a fraction of what I have been reading was true, these guys really need to cleanup the mess and get their house in order.

[JFLYNN 681]

And, let's be honest. How many people donate money not only to volunteer fire departments, but other charities, not because they want to support them, but they're dying to get some tax breaks?

The people donating their hard-earned money to their local volunteer fire departments are doing one of the following;

1. Thanking those that have helped them at some point in time.

2. Thanking those that may have to help them at some point in time.

3. Want to feel good about themselves.

4. Want a tax break.

5. Are members themselves.

6. Are family of members in their local FD.

7. Can't think of a way to say no to soliciting firefighters, so throw them a couple bucks so we leave them alone.

If I missed anything, please, feel free to add to this list. But in the 20 years I have been around, this seems to be the key reasons people continue to donate.

Well, I don't know about the reasons people donate, but whenever I explain to people what these donated monies are used for, they are virtually always shocked and outraged.

[JFLYNN 681]

I guess when I get a call from a career fire department asking for a donation I shouldn't assume parties aren't held all conferences attended do not involve partying and other activities don't happen with their money

I'm not aware of any career departments who collect donations which are used for anything other than charitable works. Any partying which is done comes out of the members own pockets.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Well, I don't know about the reasons people donate, but whenever I explain to people what these donated monies are used for, they are virtually always shocked and outraged.

Based on the comments in the Patch I would say this is the case in Irvington too

[INIT915 1,119]

I'm not aware of any career departments who collect donations which are used for anything other than charitable works. Any partying which is done comes out of the members own pockets.

I'm sure if we do a little digging we can find it. Fraud pervades all kinds of well intentioned outfits. There are always going to weak people with a poor moral compass who get caught. Sometimes the fraud is systemic throughout an agency, sometimes, it's the work of a single bad apple in an organization.

The key is, all charities, unions and groups, whether career, volunteer, or non-emergency service related, should be forthcoming about their fundraisers and donation drives.

It should always be clear to the giving party exactly where the money is going.

[Remember585 815]

Well, I don't know about the reasons people donate, but whenever I explain to people what these donated monies are used for, they are virtually always shocked and outraged.

Could you imagine how pissed they would be when they are told about how many guys go out on worker's compensation that aren't really hurt? Or how much is spent on overtime to cover them?

Holy cow!

[JFLYNN 681]

Could you imagine how pissed they would be when they are told about how many guys go out on worker's compensation that aren't really hurt? Or how much is spent on overtime to cover them?

Holy cow!

it is obvious to most reading these posts what you are attempting...the very childish and weak tactic of distraction from the issue at hand, such as when a child is caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and instead of admitting fault, exclaiming "well, my sister smeaks cookies all the time and doesn't get caught!"

This thread is not about alleged abuse of workers compensation by career firefighters. Feel free to start a thread about that though if you wish. Man up and come with some facts though. By law, all of the records you would need to attempt to prove your allegation are accessible to you, unlike the unaccessible books of volunteer fire departments.

The issue in Irvington was brought to light by the courageous and ethical stand taken by a volunteer firefighter and backed up by several other courageous and ethical volunteer firefighters, so I fail to understand why you constantly choose to attack career firefighters. However, keep going for it...all it does is serve to further expose your motivations for what they are.

[Remember585 815]

it is obvious to most reading these posts what you are attempting...the very childish and weak tactic of distraction from the issue at hand, such as when a child is caught with their hand in the cookie jar, and instead of admitting fault, exclaiming "well, my sister smeaks cookies all the time and doesn't get caught!"

This thread is not about alleged abuse of workers compensation by career firefighters. Feel free to start a thread about that though if you wish. Man up and come with some facts though. By law, all of the records you would need to attempt to prove your allegation are accessible to you, unlike the unaccessible books of volunteer fire departments.

The issue in Irvington was brought to light by the courageous and ethical stand taken by a volunteer firefighter and backed up by several other courageous and ethical volunteer firefighters, so I fail to understand why you constantly choose to attack career firefighters. However, keep going for it...all it does is serve to further expose your motivations for what they are.

I don't have an issue with career firefighters. I have an issue with you.

I, and so many more people, have grown tired of you only speaking up on these forums to beat your drum and stand atop your soapbox to deem all volunteer fire departments as incapable, lying, deceitful organizations. You think because you use big words and generally have ample grammar in your posts, that all of us are blind to your obvious dismay for the majority of us.

The issues ongoing in the Irvington FD are being beaten to death here with no true resolve. I agree with you that it's noble of the gentleman involved to stand for what he believes in. Just as I think anyone who stands up for what they believe in is honorable, because let's face it, too many people would rather not take a position on something and join the majority (drink the Kool-Aid, if you will).

Anyone that doesn't see you for who you really are and for the views you have of us evil volunteers is either naive or blind. We aren't perfect, not a single one of us is, but do you really, honestly think that coming on here and playing your game is solving anything? And am I alone on these forums to think that this story in Irvington is going to have little or no impact on anything?

There's so many more things in this world and in what we do that need our attention. And for me, those issues are ensuring we all are offering the best fire prevention training, fire safety education, strict code enforcement and adequate response to any emergency we're called upon - regardless of the community, department and whether or not those sworn to do these tasks is paid, period.

You're an intelligent man from what I can tell, with a wealth of knowledge and experience that could help better the fire service. Do you really think spending your time trying to dissect and disassemble the volunteer fire service is helping ANYONE?

Good day to you, sir.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Remember585

[FDNYDCHI 38]

I made up a new topic thread:

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/46659-where-does-your-money-go/

Chris

[Bnechis 3,961]

Could you imagine how pissed they would be when they are told about how many guys go out on worker's compensation that aren't really hurt? Or how much is spent on overtime to cover them?

I don't have an issue with career firefighters. I have an issue with you.

So which is it?

[JFLYNN 681]

I don't have an issue with career firefighters. I have an issue with you.

I, and so many more people, have grown tired of you only speaking up on these forums to beat your drum and stand atop your soapbox to deem all volunteer fire departments as incapable, lying, deceitful organizations. You think because you use big words and generally have ample grammar in your posts, that all of us are blind to your obvious dismay for the majority of us.

The issues ongoing in the Irvington FD are being beaten to death here with no true resolve. I agree with you that it's noble of the gentleman involved to stand for what he believes in. Just as I think anyone who stands up for what they believe in is honorable, because let's face it, too many people would rather not take a position on something and join the majority (drink the Kool-Aid, if you will).

Anyone that doesn't see you for who you really are and for the views you have of us evil volunteers is either naive or blind. We aren't perfect, not a single one of us is, but do you really, honestly think that coming on here and playing your game is solving anything? And am I alone on these forums to think that this story in Irvington is going to have little or no impact on anything?

There's so many more things in this world and in what we do that need our attention. And for me, those issues are ensuring we all are offering the best fire prevention training, fire safety education, strict code enforcement and adequate response to any emergency we're called upon - regardless of the community, department and whether or not those sworn to do these tasks is paid, period.

You're an intelligent man from what I can tell, with a wealth of knowledge and experience that could help better the fire service. Do you really think spending your time trying to dissect and disassemble the volunteer fire service is helping ANYONE?

Good day to you, sir.

if your issue is not with career Firefighters, but rather with me, why then did you make the post alleging widespread abuse of workers compensation by career Firefighters?

Also, to my many friends and acquaintences in the Volunteer Fire Service, please read my posts before buying into this guys attempt at labeling me as anti-volunteer Firefighter. As I have said before, I am not at all anti Volunteer Firefighter, but rather anti-hypocrisy, just like many members of the volunteer Fire Service, with several fine examples recently in Irvington.