Ex-Irvington firefighter wants to create 2nd fire company in village

[LTFIREPRG 154]

I find it interesting how every post generally turns into a Paid vs. Volunteer issue or a Fire vs. Police issue. As a former NYS Fire Instructor who has trained many volunteers and a former director of the Westchester Career Fire Academy who has trained many career firefighters, there are many excellent and dedicated career and volunteer firefighters as there are many not so excellent career and volunteer firefighters. You are always going to have individuals who are going to play the system (career and volunteer), using it to their advantage, and getting everything out of it for themselves that they can. This is a fact of life and it’s not changing anytime soon.

Let’s all wake up, the fire really doesn’t care if you are paid or volunteer, it’s not going to say “lets take it easy on them, they are volunteers”. It is paramount that all firefighter’s career and volunteer keep current skills and training. The same applies to the poor victim trapped in a fire or motor vehicle, do you really think they care what the patch on your sleeve states, FD, PD, paid or volunteer!

Everyone’s time would be better spent working together, FD, PD, paid and volunteer, for the common good and betterment of emergencies services, rather then bickering over who is better or who’s doing who’s job.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Bottom line, the volunteer service can't keep saying "we're no different from the career service" if the standards aren't the same. Professional ethics, training, whatever you want to talk about. Its time for ALL volunteer agencies (my own included) to make the decision: put up or shut up.

[Bugler83 7]

Mr. Flynn not all monies are used for parades and parties in the vollie world as you claim. The donations that are made are always there for the fire fighters to take classes when they can find time in their schedule to take such a class. For you to claim that the monies are very rarely used on equipment, apparatus or training is not only false but insulting. While some depts do goto parades does not mean that the right thing is not being done. Now before you go on the defensive you should know that I do not march with any fire dept or goto very many parties. This is just my thought and opinion. And the bottom line is that I know anytime I want or have the time to I can take any class I want because the monies is there for me. And like others say the job doesn't care about career vs vollie!

[JFLYNN 681]

Mr. Flynn not all monies are used for parades and parties in the vollie world as you claim. The donations that are made are always there for the fire fighters to take classes when they can find time in their schedule to take such a class. For you to claim that the monies are very rarely used on equipment, apparatus or training is not only false but insulting. While some depts do goto parades does not mean that the right thing is not being done. Now before you go on the defensive you should know that I do not march with any fire dept or goto very many parties. This is just my thought and opinion. And the bottom line is that I know anytime I want or have the time to I can take any class I want because the monies is there for me. And like others say the job doesn't care about career vs vollie!

Bugler thank you for your post. You seem like a genuine person who's heart is in the right place. I'm sorry if you have felt insulted by anything I have posted. It was not my intention to offend anyone. I do not have specific information in regard to your departments finances. However, I think it is likely that if you looked into it you would find that a large percentage of the money which is donated to your department is in fact used for such things as entertainment, food and beverages, including alcohol, and purchases of itmes which are not used for Firefighting purposes. This is the case in very many volunteer Fire Departments in New York State. It is my opinion that most people who donate to a volunteer fire department are totally unaware that the money is likely spent in the manner I have described.

You mentioned that classes are there for you "anytime I want or have the time to"...Don't you think that in a profession (career or volunteer of course) as important as Firefighting, the training given to members should be fairly standardized and that certain levels of training should be mandatory, and not given just to those members who"want "the training or "have time for it"?

[SSweet88MonteSS 0]

Volunteer departments are not conduits for malfeasance, misappropriation, or misconduct regarding the use of donated funds, as they operate generally as a body of the overall governmental jurisdiction's (village, town, city, and so forth) authority. To make a blanket statement that donations are used more for recreational use than official department use, without any physically documented evidence thereto, does a disservice to the entire firematic community, paid and volunteer alike.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Volunteer departments are not conduits for malfeasance, misappropriation, or misconduct regarding the use of donated funds, as they operate generally as a body of the overall governmental jurisdiction's (village, town, city, and so forth) authority. To make a blanket statement that donations are used more for recreational use than official department use, without any physically documented evidence thereto, does a disservice to the entire firematic community, paid and volunteer alike.

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

[Bugler83 7]

You mentioned that classes are there for you "anytime I want or have the time to"...Don't you think that in a profession (career or volunteer of course) as important as Firefighting, the training given to members should be fairly standardized and that certain levels of training should be mandatory, and not given just to those members who"want "the training or "have time for it"?

NYS decides that for us. However I do believe that if you do have the time you should be training. But not everyone has as much time as others. Remember most Vollies are trying to hold down a job, Take care of a family and their houses while keeping up the hours at the firehouse and train. I do not believe that a little reward is such a big deal weather it come from donations or not, Remember we are getting up when the tones drop and leaving our families to take care of others without every knowing if we will see ours again. Like I said before Career or Vollie the Job does not care.

A recent financial report shows that for the last five years members of the Irvington Fire Company have held a Christmas Party, attend a weekend retreat at Lake George and hosted a dinner at the Ritz Carlton; the money raised for these events and excursions comes in part from an allotment from a contract between the Village of Irvington and the Town of Greenburgh, in part from a NY State tax refund and in part from fund-raising efforts.

This is over a 5 year span and people are feuding about it. Sorry but maybe those should get out of bed at 3AM to do the job!!!

[JFLYNN 681]

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

Wow! Unfortu

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

Wow! Unfortu

Looks like you may be wrong in the case of the IVFD. See the latest here:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/ccccccc

Wow! This is such a shame! Thank you Mr. Kabelev and Mr. Natkin for speaking up about this. There truly are many good people like yourselves in the Volunteer Fire Service. We need to keep exposing this system for what it currently is throughout Westchester County so that it will be able to evlove into something we can all be proud of and that will truly serve those we are sworn to protect.

Also a big thanks to those posters on both sides of the issue who have kept this horse alive and motivated me to kep posting even though I haver been away on vacation. If this thread had been dropped we might not haver gotten to the point of having access to this very enlightening article here on EMTBravo.

[Bnechis 3,961]

NYS decides that for us. However I do believe that if you do have the time you should be training. But not everyone has as much time as others. Remember most Vollies are trying to hold down a job, Take care of a family and their houses while keeping up the hours at the firehouse and train.

NYS decides what for you? The training that they provide or the training that is required?

FASNY has always complained that the training requiremens are too much, so OFPC reduced the number of hours in the FF1 class. OFPC for 20 years said it took at least 15 hours to teach the NYS and Federally mandated Hazmat Operations course. When the current FF1 class came out the kept the 15 hours of material and only allow for 3 hours to cover it. Since NYS Law says all firefighters (not vol, not career, not interior, not exterior, but ALL Firefighters) must be certified by their employer (and the courts have ruled that VFD's are employer for this) prior to responding to ANY Calls. So if you only follow NYS and your members have not had at least another 12 hours (inhouse) they are in violation of the law.

OFPC does not require Confined Space Training, but as Tarrytown found out state law does.

I do not believe that a little reward is such a big deal weather it come from donations or not, Remember we are getting up when the tones drop and leaving our families to take care of others without every knowing if we will see ours again. Like I said before Career or Vollie the Job does not care.

Rewards are a good way to retain members and thus I have no problem with rewards as long as 1) It is clear to the community that that is what the money is being used for and 2) the people being rewarded are actually performing the service that the community is rewarding them for. From the Patch articles it sounds like both #1 and #2 are at issue.

A recent financial report shows that for the last five years members of the Irvington Fire Company have held a Christmas Party, attend a weekend retreat at Lake George and hosted a dinner at the Ritz Carlton;

Do those making donations know that the money is being used to reduce fire protection during those times the members leave the community for these events?

[Dinosaur 844]

You mentioned that classes are there for you "anytime I want or have the time to"...Don't you think that in a profession (career or volunteer of course) as important as Firefighting, the training given to members should be fairly standardized and that certain levels of training should be mandatory, and not given just to those members who"want "the training or "have time for it"?

NYS decides that for us. However I do believe that if you do have the time you should be training. But not everyone has as much time as others. Remember most Vollies are trying to hold down a job, Take care of a family and their houses while keeping up the hours at the firehouse and train. I do not believe that a little reward is such a big deal weather it come from donations or not, Remember we are getting up when the tones drop and leaving our families to take care of others without every knowing if we will see ours again. Like I said before Career or Vollie the Job does not care.

Sorry but NYS doesn't decide who does and doesn't take training. Each individual volunteer fire department establishes its minimum training requirements and decides if they're going to enforce them. Do you have any idea how many times I heard officers saying "well, he's not meeting the training requirements but he's a nice guy (or) he shows up at calls". So they let a substandard member skate based on popularity. And without training what good is he showing up anyway!

Career departments have a state mandated training program that every firefighter must complete before being called a firefighter.

This disparity and the ongoing opposition to any minimum training standard for volunteer FF's in NYS is what fuels this stupid us vs. them BS. So long as there are two different training standards and absolutely no enforcement of the one on the volunteer side of the house there will be this argument. You know why paid and volunteer guys get along so easily in other places? Because they all have the same training!

If you don't have the time to get the training, you shouldn't be responding to emergencies. Do you go to an auto mechanic who doesn't have any training or do you want your car fixed by someone that actually knows what's wrong with it. Untrained people on the fireground are hazards to us all but we don't do anything about it. In fact we support organizations that fight against common standards, common training, and a single definition of FF.

So what you get up when the tones drop? That's what you signed up for. Do the job but do it right whether you collect a paycheck or not!

A recent financial report shows that for the last five years members of the Irvington Fire Company have held a Christmas Party, attend a weekend retreat at Lake George and hosted a dinner at the Ritz Carlton; the money raised for these events and excursions comes in part from an allotment from a contract between the Village of Irvington and the Town of Greenburgh, in part from a NY State tax refund and in part from fund-raising efforts.

This is over a 5 year span and people are feuding about it. Sorry but maybe those should get out of bed at 3AM to do the job!!!

People are merely pointing out that the excursions to Lake George and extravagant parties at the Ritz and other similar places are what make people suspicious of the use of funds. Some of these parties are over the top and wildly expensive. That's a tough one to sell to the public in this economy. That's the point.

How much was spent on these parties over the five year span. If it's a 100K that's a lot of training, equipment or reductions in tax subsidies.

And don't forget the additional "tax" we all pay that gets squandered - the 2% monies!

Edited June 29, 2012 by Dinosaur

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Sad actually, very sad

[MoFire390 118]

I just think we should use every opportunity and medium available to continually get the word out to the public that when they make donations to their local volunteer fire department anywhere in New York State, the monies donated VERY RARELY IF AT ALL are used for firefighting apparatus or equipment, or legitimate training expenses, but rather these monies, contributed by hardworking taxpayers who have already contributed toward fire department budgets thought taxation, these monies donated, are used for PARTIES, and trinkets.

Whenever I discuss this with people in my community, they are almost always quite shocked to learn this. What a shame...

i would like to know where your recived this fact. this is a belief in your oppion, not a fact.

[DaRock98 76]

If you guys want to be taken seriously on here maybe you should type in complete sentences and use proper puncuation. Just sayin.

[FFPCogs 863]

Having no horse in this race my take on this is purely that of someone on the outside looking in. That said first off I compliment Mr. Kavalev for standing up for what he believes and not abandoning his principles in the face of their unpopularity, but in the next breath I must chastise him for resigning. No matter how much pressue is exerted from outside ultimately change can only happen from within. By quitting Mr. K has greatly reduced the chances of that change taking place. I hope for the sake of him and the IFD an equitable solution is found, but if not he must take responsibility for his decision to resign and accept the consequences of that action.

Best of luck to all involved

Just an added thought:

We would all do well to remember that when we choose to join an organization like a volunteer Fire Dept or Company we are joining them as they are. We, of our our free will, decide to enter into a relationship with an existing entity and it's members, warts and all. We may not like everyone, how they do things or aspects of the organization, but we chose to join them, not the other way around. It is unrealistic and in fact the height of self absorbtion to believe that an organization, possibly one that's been in existence for a hundred or more years, must change to suit us just because we decided to grace them with our presence, no matter how much of a "stand up guy" we are or how screwed up they may be. It is only after we have earned our place that we can look to change that which is to become that which, in our minds, it can become. And this happens only through the avenues that exist within that organization. For a desire for change to take root and it to come about requires that we show a high degree of perseverance, dedication, patience, knowledge and experience that draws others within our organizations to our cause and gains support for that change. In the end, to be a part of the solution we must first and foremost be a part of the organization...the very same one we chose to join.

Edited June 30, 2012 by FFPCogs

[SageVigiles 1,194]

If he wants to move to West Haven I'd be happy to have him...

[Bugler83 7]

Look I am not here for a dick mesuring contest. I will leave that upto the people that like to do that. I saw a statement that bothered me and I spoke up about it because its total BS. I dont ever speak up on here. This time however I felt I needed to. This Career Vs Vollie crap is for the birds, were all here to do a job and all you boys can do is talk about whose better than the other. Heres a clue get off your high horse and work together instead of against. I never seen such nonsense from people that are suppose to be helping others. Dont worry I wont speak out again since its seems to get no where with some of you. BTW heres what I had the problem with.

John Flynn said: I think it is very important that we continue to take opportunities when available to educate the public concerning the fact that monies which are donated to volunteer fire departments rarely, if ever, are used for purchase of firefighting equipment, or for training, or such purposes, but rather the monies people donate to volunteer fire departments are used for parties, extravagant dinners, vacations and excursions, etc.

[gamewell45 258]

Look I am not here for a dick mesuring contest. I will leave that upto the people that like to do that. I saw a statement that bothered me and I spoke up about it because its total BS. I dont ever speak up on here. This time however I felt I needed to. This Career Vs Vollie crap is for the birds, were all here to do a job and all you boys can do is talk about whose better than the other. Heres a clue get off your high horse and work together instead of against. I never seen such nonsense from people that are suppose to be helping others. Dont worry I wont speak out again since its seems to get no where with some of you. BTW heres what I had the problem with.

John Flynn said: I think it is very important that we continue to take opportunities when available to educate the public concerning the fact that monies which are donated to volunteer fire departments rarely, if ever, are used for purchase of firefighting equipment, or for training, or such purposes, but rather the monies people donate to volunteer fire departments are used for parties, extravagant dinners, vacations and excursions, etc.

Don't take everything you hear in here to heart; take it from the source.

[ny10570 745]

The chief has an excellent point. My former VFD held an annual fund drive every year and that money was divided amongst the companies. None of the donors knew where this money was going but I'm sure the majority thought it was operations. I have no qualms with the way my company spent its money and would have been confident opening the books to the public.

How many others can say the same? Do you think the average tax payer would really be OK sending their volleys to lake george for a weekend? Buying food for a drill or taking your members out for a reasonable annual dinner are fair reward. Sending them somewhere for pertinent training not available locally great idea. Providing a lounge, bunkroom, kitchen, or gym all can be reasonable and justifiable. 50" plasma with movie theater seating and a viking commercial kitchen kind of excessive. If you think the Chief is picking on volleys open your books up to the public. Next time you're raising money include a break down last years expenditures.

[Remember585 815]

Monies received by most fire companies I know generally goes to some of, if not all of, the following;

- Station amenities not covered by the district / municipality (this includes cable, phone, internet, furniture, furnishings, etc.).

- Retention events (picnics, dinners, etc.).

- Public Awareness / Recruitment (websites, "members wanted" signs, open houses)

- Community Give-Backs (funding a Little League team, etc.)

- Celebrations (Wet Downs [usually open to the public], Anniversary dinners / parades [often open to the public], etc.)

I really don't think anyone that writes a donation check to their local FD isn't doing so because they want to show their support to those neighbors of theirs who are coming to their aid when they need them. Often times they make comments like "I wish I had the time to help" or "I give you guys a lot of credit for what you do." The ones that don't donate are either doing it because they can't afford to, don't donate to anything or just plain hate us.

jumping up and down, screaming that all volunteer fire departments are ripping off taxpayers, using donations for lavish vacations just isn't true for all of us. We don't even send our Chiefs to trade shows anymore because we realized that more time (let's be honest - money) was being pissed away at meals and lodging. The money we get from our Village for training is used for everyone and no longer pays for 2 or 3 guys to "vacation" in Baltimore. Sure, you sit in on one 3 hour seminar each day, but how many hours of that same day are you at the pool or the bar?

None of us are perfect. And at the end of the day I think most of us will agree that our "system" (to be used loosely) is fractured in New York, but it's what we have and we are all trying our best to do what we believe in - right?

To Mr. Flynn, I appreciate how strongly opinionated you are. We share that trait and I credit it to our similar first name. And believe me, I hold nothing against any one person, one organization or one group of individuals. What I do have a hard time with is anyone that wants to degrade any group or organization for doing something wrong, when everyone (myself included) has made mistakes as well.

I think all of us on EMTBravo should stop making everything a debate and try to put our energies into more prudent efforts.

Let's start by agreeing on one thing - whatever that one thing is - and working TOGETHER to find a resolution. Nothing will ever come from all of us (especially yours truly) getting all hot and bothered here.

To all, I apologize for my lunacy in earlier posts, but I tend to get emotional when my department gets lumped into the poor choices some others (and I am NOT talking about Irvington, so don't hate me guys!) routinely do.

Thanks.

[x4093k 654]

I don't have an issue with career firefighters. I have an issue with you.

I, and so many more people, have grown tired of you only speaking up on these forums to beat your drum and stand atop your soapbox to deem all volunteer fire departments as incapable, lying, deceitful organizations. You think because you use big words and generally have ample grammar in your posts, that all of us are blind to your obvious dismay for the majority of us.

The issues ongoing in the Irvington FD are being beaten to death here with no true resolve. I agree with you that it's noble of the gentleman involved to stand for what he believes in. Just as I think anyone who stands up for what they believe in is honorable, because let's face it, too many people would rather not take a position on something and join the majority (drink the Kool-Aid, if you will).

Anyone that doesn't see you for who you really are and for the views you have of us evil volunteers is either naive or blind. We aren't perfect, not a single one of us is, but do you really, honestly think that coming on here and playing your game is solving anything? And am I alone on these forums to think that this story in Irvington is going to have little or no impact on anything?

There's so many more things in this world and in what we do that need our attention. And for me, those issues are ensuring we all are offering the best fire prevention training, fire safety education, strict code enforcement and adequate response to any emergency we're called upon - regardless of the community, department and whether or not those sworn to do these tasks is paid, period.

You're an intelligent man from what I can tell, with a wealth of knowledge and experience that could help better the fire service. Do you really think spending your time trying to dissect and disassemble the volunteer fire service is helping ANYONE?

Good day to you, sir.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! that post is GREAT!

[norestriction 10]

I disagree Chris, respectfully. I think it is very important that we continue to take opportunities when available to educate the public concerning the fact that monies which are donated to volunteer fire departments rarely, if ever, are used for purchase of firefighting equipment, or for training, or such purposes, but rather the monies people donate to volunteer fire departments are used for parties, extravagant dinners, vacations and excursions, etc.

Also, it is important to continue to emphasize that although there are lots of dedicated volunteer firefighters, such as Nick, who want to do the right thing in regard to being trained, prepared, and ACCOUNTABLE, there are many other volunteer firefighters who take advantage of the system, collect pensions and other perks,use the firehouses as a social club, and who have extremely little legitimate training, are unable to provide the service they claim they provide, and are basically accountable to no one.

Wow might be the first time I agreed with you Chief well said and there are a few lines I will use on my guys.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I don't think that Chief Flynn hates volunteers necessarily.

I believe that he expects firefighters and fire departments to be responsible and accountable for their actions. I think he doesn't think that we should accept BS excuses why volunteer agencies shouldn't be held to high standard of professionalism. I think he believes that fire departments should have a certain degree of transparency to the citizens they protect. I think he believes that firefighters should be properly trained and equipped to do the job and should be willing to do ALL of the parts of their job, not just the glamorous parts.

And I think I agree.

Edited July 1, 2012 by SageVigiles

[norestriction 10]

I don't think that Chief Flynn hates volunteers necessarily.

I believe that he expects firefighters and fire departments to be responsible and accountable for their actions. I think he doesn't think that we should accept BS excuses why volunteer agencies shouldn't be held to high standard of professionalism. I think he believes that fire departments should have a certain degree of transparency to the citizens they protect. I think he believes that firefighters should be properly trained and equipped to do the job and should be willing to do ALL of the pairs of their job, not just the glamorous parts.

And I think I agree.

Nah I have read his post for a long time and I agreed with him once 10 minutes ago. I do and always will respect his knowledge and accomplishments but I think your assessment is wrong.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I kind of look at this like fingerprinting teachers or random drug testing: if you have nothing to hide, then broad-brush allegations likely don't affect you. As a member of a VFD starting out, I can honestly say we wouldn't have cared about comments that seem to paint most VFD's in poor light as we'd have been certain that we could prove that we were above that, please ask to see the books, we'd love for anyone to take any interest at all.

Those who protest maybe feel slightly embarrassed to be part of an organization that while providing a valuable service cannot be totally open due to the "perks"?

I generally could care less about broad brush anti-career statements for similar reasons, ask us we'll show you anything, please prove us wrong, show us how to be more efficient while providing better service and maintaining a margin of safety for our personnel. These days we (career folk) may be slightly less impervious to negative comments given the nearly all out assault on public employees. If we thought our departments could be scritinized singularly we'd not care, but it appears the perceived financial situation has people making brash decision based on half-truths, and as long as it costs less, they're willing to ignore all the facts. To this end I've yet to see VFD's nationwide be subjected to such scrutiny from the mass public, so no it isn't the same.

So go ahead tell us we're fleecing the public with pensions, sick-outs, padded OT, details, joyriding in public vehicles and sitting on our a$$es while being paid, I know I don't care as any reasonable investigation into any allegation will reveal this to be false. Now if you can't say the same about your own FD, volunteer or career, then maybe it's time to re-evaluate priorities?

[16fire5 693]

Last time I bought a live Christmass Tree I bought it from a volunteer fire department. With my purchase they gave me a sheet of paper and the paper stated was filled with all out lies and half truths. The paper stated the orginization relied completely on donations (Actually the orginization recieves tax dollars to rent their firehouse to the district). The paper also stated the orginization relied on donations to operate and failed to mention that all apparatus, equipment, and training was provided through tax money. This is not an isolated situation I have seen this in two other departments.

Please spare me the entitlement complex "I get up at 3 AM so I deserve free beer and a trip to Lake George" that should have disappeared the moment that LOSAP was passed.

I have stated before there are plenty of well run non career departments but probably not many in NYS. I won't call them volunteer because they are paid on call and municipally run without the interference of a social orginization.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

What is sad is that it is guys like Nick that are the best hope for VFDs like Irvington but they keep driving the good guys away. Whata shame.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

A new story about this situation is in todays Journal news:

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120709/NEWS02/307090024/Firefighter-halted-from-serving?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

What is as sad as it is shocking is the Village report on Nick's harassment claims:

http://www.lohud.com/assets/pdf/BH19158273.PDF

What a shame that a motivated guy like him has been treated so badly. And the Village is looking pretty lame in the way they have handled this.

[jack10562 414]

It appears the village and fire company inaction's might have opened the door for a lawsuit against them which they may be unable to successfully defend.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Maybe some one can clear this up for me? Who's in charge when you have two parallel organizations that cover the same membership? I'm pretty certain that on my job, not only would the person responsible for harassing another be disciplined but any or all of those officers whom granted tacit approval by their failure to enforce policy, laws and rules would also be disciplined. This is another example of a significant difference between career and non-career FD's. While I'm sure some non-career dept's provide supervisory training, my guess is that far less actually do and a percentage of those that do give the bare minimum, while some career FD's may follow the same, many (most I'm familiar with) require far more supervisory training and testing. This makes it clear who's required to do what and eliminates the "we didn't know" excuses.

Point of order: while I've had countless hours or supervisory practices, sensitivity training, diversity training, legal issues for supervisors, etc, etc, ad nauseum, when it comes right down to it, I already knew what was right and what was wrong as I'm sure most of us do, those that don't should not be given authority over anyone.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Point of order: while I've had countless hours or supervisory practices, sensitivity training, diversity training, legal issues for supervisors, etc, etc, ad nauseum, when it comes right down to it, I already knew what was right and what was wrong as I'm sure most of us do, those that don't should not be given authority over anyone.

That is a great statement. 99.9% of supervisory decisions should be intuitive. Yes, there's those occasional "grey areas" but more than a few people I consider to be excellent leaders have always taught me that if it feels like the the wrong decision, it probably is.