Ex-Irvington firefighter wants to create 2nd fire company in village

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Came across this article on the Patch about the Irvington VFD. What's going on over there??

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/old-ny-law-creates-controversy-between-irvington-fire-co-volunteer#photo-406128

[JFLYNN 681]

Came across this article on the Patch about the Irvington VFD. What's going on over there??

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/old-ny-law-creates-controversy-between-irvington-fire-co-volunteer#photo-406128

Kudos to Mr. kava lev! I would like to meet him. A courageous, principled man.

[INIT915 1,119]

Forgive me, as I don't participate in fire department activities of any sort, but this article seems to be missing something. By the complainant's own admissions, he is in no way forced to participate in the activities he deplores.

Kabelev said that while nothing forces members of the Company to attend social events or spend time "upstairs" in the fire house, his leaving the group was more symbolic than anything else.

Edit: Quote added.

Edited June 17, 2012 by INIT915

[JFLYNN 681]

Forgive me, as I don't participate in fire department activities of any sort, but this article seems to be missing something. By the complainant's own admissions, he is in no way forced to participate in the activities he deplores.

Edit: Quote added.

It seems that he feels the best way he can be of service to his community is to take the actions he has taken in order to expose the unfortunate reality of the situation and perhaps galvanize the community as well as other FD members behind some real change.

[INIT915 1,119]

It seems that he feels the best way he can be of service to his community is to take the actions he has taken in order to expose the unfortunate reality of the situation and perhaps galvanize the community as well as other FD members behind some real change.

I guess I just don't see it. On occasion I can follow your critiques of VFD's, but I don't see much to this one.

[JFLYNN 681]

I guess I just don't see it. On occasion I can follow your critiques of VFD's, but I don't see much to this one.

Fair enough...

[ny10570 745]

He filed the complaint and bailed out at the same meeting? Why not follow through? If the dept ignored this issues or didn't follow through with remedying the situation the state would absolutely intervene. EEO is a hot issue and there is plenty of precedent establishing volunteer depts are subject to the same laws as regular employers unless specifically exempted.

[CFI609D 119]

He filed the complaint and bailed out at the same meeting? Why not follow through? If the dept ignored this issues or didn't follow through with remedying the situation the state would absolutely intervene. EEO is a hot issue and there is plenty of precedent establishing volunteer depts are subject to the same laws as regular employers unless specifically exempted.

Nick didn't "bail out": he resigned from the "company" which is actually a social services and benevolent organization. At the time he was told by the village that he could do so. After seeking additional legal opinions, however, the village later rescinded its original opinion and he was told that he would have to rejoin the social services organization to remain an active firefighter, and that is where the dispute took off. Nick has been afforded the opportunity to rejoin the "company" but Nick has refused to do so as it against his principles and he sees the company as a source of much of the hostility directed towards him.

Nick is an outstanding firefighter and has been an incredible asset to the community. He is well known to all of the instructors in our region thanks to his dedication to training and mastering all aspects of firefighting. And yes, he is also very principled and refuses to compromise those principles. While I do not always agree with Nick, I have enormous respect for him. It is a shame that this has transpired and I hope that resolution will take place.

This law cited requiring members of a village fire department to also be members of a non-firematic social services organization calling thmselves a fire company is most unfortunate, and it is archaic. 150 years ago there were legit reasons to force firefighters be members of a company. But in this day and age where you have a municipal fire department and the company is no more than a social services entity (as is the case in Irvington, where the company has ZERO fire or emergency services role), this needs to be changed. I hope that perhaps this situation will prove to be a positive catalyst and that it will push lawmakers to reexamine obsolete and meaningless laws like this one.

[ny10570 745]

What would it take to establish a new company?

[Pedro911 22]

Nicoli's decisions have left his home community with 1 less life-saver. For those of you that don't know, he has been awarded numerous life saving awards as well as a congressional level award from Congresswoman Dr. Nan Hayworth last month. It is unfortunate that internal FD politics have resulted in his decision to no longer be a firefighter.

I don't think my own community as a whole is aware of the separation between the the company and the district functions, as mirrored in one of the comments above. I certainly did not understand this for several years after becoming a FF/EMT.

When we hold fundraising events such as a "boot drive", we get dressed in our PPE and hold out fire boots for motorists to donate money to our cause.... "OUR CAUSE?" Unless they have a personal connection to the FD, I doubt that any significant percentage of the donators understand that this $ is NOT going towards training, equipment or operational readiness. This is straight up false advertising. And I am personally sickened by it. I've told my friends and family that donated money annually to the fire dept through the companies annual fund drive, to stop.

I have witnessed repeatedly over the years, tens of thousands of dollars getting spent by my company on parades, annual dinners, installation dinners, christmas parties, etc... And simultaneously get turned down for much needed equipment and stonewalled on training funds by the fire commission. Although these are two separate entities, there seems to be something very very wrong with this. I did not join the FD to drink beer either. I did not join to go to parades.

Ask yourselves: are you going through more cans of ZEP and tubs of turtle wax than saw blades and saw fuel? Our pride should not come from how shiney and clean our trucks are, but rather how dirty and trashed our gear is from having training with it so much. I believe that if we prioritize the trophies that go in a glass case over what we actually signed up to do, we are more likely to end up in a pine box.

[eagle5473 7]

Does Irvington FD file taxes I cant find them un www.guidestar.com ?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does Irvington FD file taxes I cant find them un www.guidestar.com ?

The Fire Department is a municipal agency under the village of Irvington, so no.

The Fire Company is a not for profit corporation so it should be required to

[SmokeyJoe 161]

Anyone from Irvington out there who can answer that question? What about you CFI609D....you got an answer? Good question that deserves to be answered!

The Fire Department is a municipal agency under the village of Irvington, so no.

The Fire Company is a not for profit corporation so it should be required to

Anyone from Irvington out there who can answer that question? What about you CFI609D....you got an answer? Good question that deserves to be answered! :-&

[IzzyEng4 427]

So this guy quits the company, which is the organization that provides and sponsors fire protection services to the village / district and is upset that he can't be a firefighter anymore in the village. HE QUIT! Plain and simple, its like quitting a job, you can't continue to work there if your not part / employed but the organization that provides a service. He is not covered by the insurance anymore. Its not a hard thing to figure out. He took that step and he's out. Even if there was no "company" structure, if he quits the department he's no longer a member as an active firefighter.

By reading this article, which by the way has holes large enough to drive the Super Pumper through it, he should have not quit in my opinion, should have stood his ground with the complaint he lodged while a member of the organization. Granted I don't know any of what is going on except by this article, there may be good reasons why he left. The harassment stated is very vague and obviously for his protection that things are not being let out.

If he is a good a firefighter as you all say he is, I hope there is some justice for him. And maybe he can rejoin or go somewhere else. However, there are three sides to every story. We'll have to wait an see how this pans out.

[JFLYNN 681]

Nicoli's decisions have left his home community with 1 less life-saver. For those of you that don't know, he has been awarded numerous life saving awards as well as a congressional level award from Congresswoman Dr. Nan Hayworth last month. It is unfortunate that internal FD politics have resulted in his decision to no longer be a firefighter.

I don't think my own community as a whole is aware of the separation between the the company and the district functions, as mirrored in one of the comments above. I certainly did not understand this for several years after becoming a FF/EMT.

When we hold fundraising events such as a "boot drive", we get dressed in our PPE and hold out fire boots for motorists to donate money to our cause.... "OUR CAUSE?" Unless they have a personal connection to the FD, I doubt that any significant percentage of the donators understand that this $ is NOT going towards training, equipment or operational readiness. This is straight up false advertising. And I am personally sickened by it. I've told my friends and family that donated money annually to the fire dept through the companies annual fund drive, to stop.

I have witnessed repeatedly over the years, tens of thousands of dollars getting spent by my company on parades, annual dinners, installation dinners, christmas parties, etc... And simultaneously get turned down for much needed equipment and stonewalled on training funds by the fire commission. Although these are two separate entities, there seems to be something very very wrong with this. I did not join the FD to drink beer either. I did not join to go to parades.

Ask yourselves: are you going through more cans of ZEP and tubs of turtle wax than saw blades and saw fuel? Our pride should not come from how shiney and clean our trucks are, but rather how dirty and trashed our gear is from having training with it so much. I believe that if we prioritize the trophies that go in a glass case over what we actually signed up to do, we are more likely to end up in a pine box.

Great post! It's comforting to know that there are people in the olunteer fire service such as yourself who have their priorities right and are willing to speak up about how horribly wrong and deceitful the system can be to unknowing taxpayers who make donations, thinking they are going to legitimate fire protection assets, training, etc., and have no idea that these monies in fact go to parties, parades, and nonsense.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

So this guy quits the company, which is the organization that provides and sponsors fire protection services to the village / district and is upset that he can't be a firefighter anymore in the village. HE QUIT! Plain and simple, its like quitting a job, you can't continue to work there if your not part / employed but the organization that provides a service. He is not covered by the insurance anymore. Its not a hard thing to figure out. He took that step and he's out. Even if there was no "company" structure, if he quits the department he's no longer a member as an active firefighter.

By reading this article, which by the way has holes large enough to drive the Super Pumper through it, he should have not quit in my opinion, should have stood his ground with the complaint he lodged while a member of the organization. Granted I don't know any of what is going on except by this article, there may be good reasons why he left. The harassment stated is very vague and obviously for his protection that things are not being let out.

If he is a good a firefighter as you all say he is, I hope there is some justice for him. And maybe he can rejoin or go somewhere else. However, there are three sides to every story. We'll have to wait an see how this pans out.

Izzy: I can understand why you are confused about what it means to be a member of a fire company, as Connecticut does not have the same crazy system as in NY. In Irvington, as in many municipal (village) fire departments there are two organizations operating in tandem:

1. Fire Department

2. "fire company"

The department Anyone from Irvington out there who can answer that question? What about you CFI609D....you got an answer? Good question that deserves to be answered! just that: the official Department funded by and accountable to the municipality (in this case the incorporated Village of Irvington). The fire chief is its chief executive and reports to the Mayor and Trustees.

The "fire company", however, does not provide and fire protection function. It is a "social services and benevolent organization" run by a President, Vice President, etc. It is essentially not accountable to anyone, and it does not serve any direct emergency service function. It is not a fire company in the sense of a traditional engine ladder or rescue company. It is a social organization for the members of the department.

What has happened in Irvington is that Nick originally resigned from the company but was told he could remain a member of the department. The issue here is the law being cited by the village attorney which they say requires him to remain a member of the "fire company." Nick is trying to remain an active member of the department, but he has no desire to be a member of the social organization. I will leave it to him to explain his reasoning, though I will say that you would be hard-pressed to find a finer, ore committed or more professional first responder. I hope we can get him back on line soon as his community needs him.

I hope this helps clarify what is already a complicated and very confusing situation.

[CFI609D 119]

You beat me to it, SJ!

Izzy: the company thing in New York is crazy and confusing. This is not like in Connecticut (where I grew up and started in the fire service).

And Joe, I would rather leave it to the leadership of the Irvington fire company to speak for itself, though all good questions. I do agree that Nyq is needed back in the firehouse and that I hope this will all get resolved sooner rather than later. This has been a very difficult and unpleasant situation that needs proper resolution. And the law requiring us to also remain a member of what is no more than a social organization needs to be reexamined as it serves no real function anymore.

[INIT915 1,119]

Would it be fair to characterize this man's complaint as being analogous to a career FF (or LEO) who wishes to remain an active employee, but doesn't want to be part of the underlying Union because he doesn't agree with it's fundraising/spending?

[rayrider 94]

The difference is you still have a job and the union has to still provide benefits.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Smokey Joe and CFI, I am not confused. The systems are similar where I am from. I come from Ansonia and still live here. I belong to the Ansonia Fire Department, a municipal city funded agency. I belong to the Charters Hose Company No. 4. My company is one of five five companies that make up the AFD. If I quit my company I am no longer a member of the department unless I join and am accepted into one of the other four entities after I apply to them. So it is the same as are the other departments that have similar set ups, such as Derby, Shelton, seymour and Vernon to name a few.

The only difference CT is from NY is that our state allows for towns to have their own and fund fire departments through a charter change. Your villages and cities governments are the same as our boroughs and cities.

But to get back on topic, I hope things work out for everyone involved and if there is any wrongdoing, it is rooted out and fixed.

(*)

[norestriction 10]

A volunteer fire dept (each company in fact) must have their own tax id number and file taxes according to law. This is talked about every year in Albany at one of the conventions and every year they spend 3 hours on the subject. In my dept our company just went through the process of obtaining a new non profit tax id but taxes still need to be filed

[PAULIEMUSCLEZ 4]

And it was all over "hear say" what a shame... We need to remember when we are in the fire service and we dislike another member that problem gets left at the door because if you take that into a fire someone could get killed. Let's look at the big picture here. Stop crying about baby bull and do our jobs safely so everyone can go home!! Let's do what we do best! HELP PEOPLE!!!

[ny10570 745]

What would it take to charter a new company? One dedicated to firefighting.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

And it was all over "hear say" what a shame... We need to remember when we are in the fire service and we dislike another member that problem gets left at the door because if you take that into a fire someone could get killed. Let's look at the big picture here. Stop crying about baby bull and do our jobs safely so everyone can go home!! Let's do what we do best! HELP PEOPLE!!!

From reading the Patch sounds like it was more than hear say as an administrative judge found fault and a member was suspended. It also sounds like one of Irvington's best is trying to do just that: go about his job safely but he is not being allowed to cuz he wont join a social club. What a shame that a guy who wants to help people is being blocked. What's wrong with this picture?

[SmokeyJoe 161]

What would it take to charter a new company? One dedicated to firefighting.

Gee, ya saying that the "company" isn't dedicated to firefighting?! What a sad statement this is that a motivated guy has to create a "company...dedicated to firefighting" to get the job done. Who's running this show?? I can see who's ruining it!

[CFI609D 119]

From reading the Patch sounds like it was more than hear say as an administrative judge found fault and a member was suspended. It also sounds like one of Irvington's best is trying to do just that: go about his job safely but he is not being allowed to cuz he wont join a social club. What a shame that a guy who wants to help people is being blocked. What's wrong with this picture?

Nyq is indeed an exceptional and well trained firefighter. He spent countless hours not only training but mentoring young and probationary firefighters.

He is missed and I for one hope he comes back sooner rather than later.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I am glad that this individual is calling out his chief, his company and his department for the social club environment that exists in his department. I only wish more people had the stones to do to that in their own departments, and that there were people who actually listened and cared within the department so that the issues could be handled internally and not need to have the department and its members names dragged through the mud.

One of the best departments I have ever belonged to has absolutely no social club atmosphere what so ever, hell some of us would barely acknowledge each other if we saw each other walking down the street. But at least we are in service with a driver and 2 EMTs 24/7/365 for the past ~20 something years and respond to all calls, emergency and non-emergency within the proscribed national average, all of this with volunteers 90% of the time. And no this department is not in NYS.

The time of the social club atmosphere in FD/EMS departments, especially in Westchester needs to come to an end. Either you respond regularly or you leave, if you can not be a firefighter or EMT you leave. No booze in the firehouse, a few low budget parade appearances a year, maybe one department dinner, that is it. Do it because you want to provide the COMMUNITY with that service, not because YOU want to say you provide the service.

soap box 10-8, 10-2.

[16fire5 693]

Forgive me, as I don't participate in fire department activities of any sort, but this article seems to be missing something. By the complainant's own admissions, he is in no way forced to participate in the activities he deplores.

That is not the case everywhere in NYS there are plenty of companies that have requirements for meeting attendance (where nothing to do with firefighting is discussed) and fundraisers have attendance requirements in many cases more than training requirements. Even parade requirements so do not be fooled volunteers who are good firefighters are dropped or quit because they want to be firefighters not beer money beggars. What is also insane is members gain LOSAP credit for meeting attendance and fundraising. When we have the opportunity to examine how volunteer department's are run outside of New York it is interesting how effective they can be. I think this member did not quit in vain he is drawing attention to the archaic system that still exists here.

[SmokeyJoe 161]

The Patch has posted an update to its original article:

http://rivertowns.patch.com/articles/comments-on-earlier-story-spark-further-debate-about-irvington-fd

This issue is not unique to Irvington, nor to Westchester. It is time to fix what is broken: these companies and departments can no longer operate without proper leadership or accountability. Something is wrong when a guy like Nick is harassed and driven out of town rather than promoted. This law requiring a member to join both company and department needs to be updated.

Too bad they don't spend as much time energy or money on training!

[SmokeyJoe 161]

With all due respect, you seem to miss the point. Yes, the law requires membership in both department and company. But this clearly needs to be fixed. This guy is the type of member you need to retain, not drive away. And many of these people, while they know nada about the job, do have a point: if they are donating and supporting the IVFD they have a right to know how there donations are used. The alcohol in the fire service will be the end of the volunteers. Finally, one person keeps asking about comments from the company membership. They have been silent - why?

Edited June 22, 2012 by helicopper
Quoted post deleted.