Mutual Aid - Who Do You Call

[Dinosaur 844]

Do you have guys working that are on "light duty". And do they/could they perform some functiuon at a fire scene if needed. Limited exterior work, fill bottles, staging officers or other IC roles. Some paid departments have guys like this that would be like "exterior" firefighters in a volunteer system.

Guys that are on light-duty are generally recovering from an injury or illness and have no business being on a fireground.

They have the same training as any "full-duty" FF so your attempt at a comparison is flawed.

[Remember585 815]

I just read an incident alert from Westchester where a volunteer department requested a farther away volunteer department as a FAST and later on called for the closer career department FAST. It appears the closer career department beat the volunteer department called 5 minutes before them. I don't understand why these departments don't have those departments on automatic response. I speculate it's because they don't want to get beat in to all their fires. I'm sure the person who's house on fire would disagree.

In the volunteer system where the firehouse is not staffed driving distance dosen't really mean anything. There are so many variables like. How many members they have, when they are available, and how far they live or work from the firehouse. Some spread out districts take 10 minutes to get on the road and other dense village departments get out in 2 minutes.

Part of the issue, and not so much regarding this incident and/or the agencies involved, is how the system works here. An automatic dispatch of a FAST for any structural fire could mean anything from wires burning on a house, a brush fire near a house, a pot on the stove or something else not actually a structure fire. I know one department is using an automatic FAST on their structural fires - and I think it's a great concept. However, those taking and dispatching the calls should have flexibility to decipher the information they get and decide if the response of more than one agency is really warranted.

Now, to just touch on the incident alert you are talking about - the career FD is closer than the volunteers in this case (my department). But for a really, REALLY long time, for any of us in the area to call the VAFD was taboo. They're an often overlooked resource that some of us are actually starting to use.

The only downside I can see calling them over one of the volunteer FASTs in our area is the manpower. They can only send 3-4 most of the time, whereas our department averages 6-10 FAST members. The great thing is that the VA and the neighboring volunteer departments with FAST have the same training and have trained together. At this recent fire, I am told the VA manpower was used for suppression and/or overhaul, so our department assumed the FAST role. And, should we ever be short on FAST members, our unwritten rule is to call upon the VAFD RIT to complement our members to make a team.

The system isn't perfect, but some of us in our little bubble do make the effort to do the right thing.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Guys that are on light-duty are generally recovering from an injury or illness and have no business being on a fireground.

They have the same training as any "full-duty" FF so your attempt at a comparison is flawed.

Our "exterior" firefighters all started as "interior" so they also have the same training as "full duty", we do not except members as "exterior" from the start. And since they do not have to worry about civil service rules or loosing pensions or jobs they can come in handy on the fireground. What works for some may not work for others.

It may be flawed, but fact is some of the functions on the fireground in a career system can be done by exterior firefighters in a volunteer system.

Edited September 20, 2012 by spin_the_wheel

[Dinosaur 844]

Our "exterior" firefighters all started as "interior" so they also have the same training as "full duty", we do not except members as "exterior" from the start. And since they do not have to worry about civil service rules or loosing pensions or jobs they can come in handy on the fireground. What works for some may not work for others.

It may be flawed, but fact is some of the functions on the fireground in a career system can be done by exterior firefighters in a volunteer system.

If they have the same training why the distinction?

All the firematic jobs on the fireground should be done by firefighters. Not by "helpers", not by cops, and not by public works.

Your thinly veiled contempt of injured FF designated temporarily as light duty is unwarranted too. None of the guys I know who are on light duty want to be for a minute longer than necessary and warranted by their injury and they are contributing to the department even if not on the fireground while they're working. What's the problem with that?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If they have the same training why the distinction?

All the firematic jobs on the fireground should be done by firefighters. Not by "helpers", not by cops, and not by public works.

Your thinly veiled contempt of injured FF designated temporarily as light duty is unwarranted too. None of the guys I know who are on light duty want to be for a minute longer than necessary and warranted by their injury and they are contributing to the department even if not on the fireground while they're working. What's the problem with that?

Dino your reading me all wrong......there is no "contempt" here at all. Just saying there are more then 2 ways to skin a cat (no offense to cat lovers)

Trying to compare career to volunteer never works out.

The point was to show that many functions on the fireground, can be accomplished with exterior guys who do not go into a fire building. And as I said above our exterior designated guys, not many mind you, are not "helpers". All are senior guys with 35 to 40 years who still want to help out the dept. Just like a career guy hates every minute of being on "light duty" Im sure an "exterior" guy wishes he could be "interior" again. But in "our" world he can still play a role without worring about the ramifications the career firefighter has to worry about. Not knocking career here, there are career guys I know who have been forced out of the job due to certain injuries. They know they still can play a role but its the system they are in that prevents it. The volunteer system in many places allows things to play out in a different way.

Thanks to NIMS and all the other "standards" set forth on todays fireground you need a ton of guys. Im not talking about fire police traffic control duty here, Im talking about assigning positions of accountability officer, staging officer, rehab people, PIO to name a few. Most working fires even the most routine, all of these positons come into play.

In the end we will agree to disagree but as long as the fires go out its all good. Be safe.

[50-65 205]

Here's another part of the problem. Some departments call every member a firefighter whether they have training or not. They all have uniforms, they all march in parades, and when the town asks, they're counted in the head count of "firefighters". This only makes the problem of understaffing worse when we lie to ourselves and our constituents.

I'm sure this is a common problem. I know for us, we have maybe 40 or so "members", most of them would say they are firefighters. However, out of the maybe 40, only about 20 are "active" and out of those 20, you might see 10-12 at any given call. So how many do we really have? Not many in reality.

Some departments only have a handful of "interior" firefighters and rely heavily on others to assist them. Is that the right thing to do?

No.

One standard for FF statewide in NY would be a great first step toward eliminating the rift between career and volunteer. But so long as FASNY has anything to say about it, we'll just suffer with the different standards and misrepresentation.

That would be awesome. I think it would have an initial effect of reducing the volunteer numbers, but eventually those numbers would come back up. In the end, you would have better trained and qualified departments. I believe that Florida requires all firefighters to go throught the same training, whether paid or volunteer.

[Atv300 69]

So everyone who thinks there should be no helpers why? Why can't we have people to help with task that have training weather its a minimum for being on a fire ground or simple someone for what ever reason can't be an interior at the time or for the rest of his life he or she is supposed to disappear and not share any of their knowledge or do what they still can.

OK let me break it down if you have 5 rigs respond you need 5 drivers right so far? So stop me if I am wrong the way a lot of you will have it that those five rigs will be driven by firefighters( interior only no exceptions). so you complain about not having enough to do a job there is five guys right there that can be used if you had just drivers. Dose a driver have to be or ever had to been an interior firefighter? If yes why???

Do you have to crawl down a smokey hallway to learn how to change out bottles, throw a ladder, get tools, hump hose, help the pump operator(MPO, chauffeur, driver, what ever you need to call them)??? If yes why I believe every firefighter needs to know these things but why cant we also have people that do not want to be interior help with the proper training of their own.

I will never knock the career guys that what they have to do and for the most part they do a great job with a lot of flack and insecurity with there jobs. that's what works for them in my department we can do a lot with a handful of interior guys on an indecent and some really great exterior people for support and get things done well, safe, and quick. That's what works for us but that might not work for everyone just like stuff the career departments do might not work for us. Everyone has staffing issues its no secret for those who think the career guys are calling around you maybe they are but step back look from there eyes they need someone there ever time not half way some times and all the way other times so instead of complaining give the departments a reason to call you show them you have competent trained staff that will respond 110% 24/7 not 90%nights and weekends and ??? weekdays. Even as a volunteer I would look at who can I get how long and how good but in the sticks due to that thing called geography we can't be as picky all the time.

[x129K 1,393]

Ryan - you are copmparing a CAREER job with a vollie (our) department...so yes - every firefighter (read; EMPLOYEE) needs to be the same. If a rig pulls up at any emergency, they are staffed with firefighters and an Officer...period.

I remember going to a chimney fire on the Truck a few years ago....your Dad was driving...then it was me (full gear, ready to go)....and Thumper...and that old guy who always hangs out at the firehouse who I can never recall his name. (Not Car 3's Dad).

In any event - there you have a "4 man truck" responding to a fire.....how many were actually capable of firefighting? Bear in mind I was the ONLY one on board wearing turnout gear. See the difference?

I agree - non-interior members are useful on OUR scenes, but for departments of a more urban climate, such as those the posters above are members of or have retired from - it doesnt cut the mustard..Career departments are held to higher standards. They HAVE to be...hell - I failed the physical agility to get on the job by 5/10 of a second; a half a flocking second! Done...off the list.

In the vollies, we call that "close enough".

Another example - how many career firefighters can go an entire career (20 years) without ever getting trained to operate or drive an engine? Thats unheard of - all employees must be trained to the same standard and that includes being a driver of need be.

I am in my 23rd year....and I have never been qualified on an engine...never had the desire too, never been forced too.

And dont get me wrong Cap - I am really agreeing with you - just trying to show the other side and why these guys are so firm in their statements.

And I say BOY.

[antiquefirelt 994]

It appears that the original question really refers to Mutual Aid. I can tell you that the IC doesn't want to hear he has an engine or truck coming only to learn upon their arrival that they cannot be used for some of the requisite tasks. If you guys use exterior people in your hometown, all the better, we do too (not career personnel of course). But our mutual aid pact requires engines and trucks respond with 5 Interior qualified personnel. The IC merely knows he has a a company coming and that he can assign them to whatever he needs. As far as we're concerned non-interior firefighters cannot count as company strength. We do not have any other career staffed companies around us, but if we did I'm confident we'd work them into our alarms earlier than closer VFD neighbors for the consistency alone. We have some great volunteer M/A partners, but over the course of time consistently staffed apparatus in a consistent time frame has not been proven to be a reality.

Edited September 22, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[Atv300 69]

Ryan - you are copmparing a CAREER job with a vollie (our) department...so yes - every firefighter (read; EMPLOYEE) needs to be the same. If a rig pulls up at any emergency, they are staffed with firefighters and an Officer...period.

I remember going to a chimney fire on the Truck a few years ago....your Dad was driving...then it was me (full gear, ready to go)....and Thumper...and that old guy who always hangs out at the firehouse who I can never recall his name. (Not Car 3's Dad).

In any event - there you have a "4 man truck" responding to a fire.....how many were actually capable of firefighting? Bear in mind I was the ONLY one on board wearing turnout gear. See the difference?

I agree - non-interior members are useful on OUR scenes, but for departments of a more urban climate, such as those the posters above are members of or have retired from - it doesnt cut the mustard..Career departments are held to higher standards. They HAVE to be...hell - I failed the physical agility to get on the job by 5/10 of a second; a half a flocking second! Done...off the list.

In the vollies, we call that "close enough".

I actually do agree on the trucks going mutual aide should not even leave the floor without a full interior crew. Your talking around our town and the main majority of our members go to the scene for geographic reasons so in that case the truck sitting in the bay 3 dispatches while the manpower is OS is not good like I said will not work for all but I still do not understand why certain task can't be done by exterior I.e. driving. Minus paid staff I understand that's how your unions work hey whatever it's what works for you. But even in that case I can see the driver not needing to be a firefighter in so many words but i don't blame anyone for not doing that with today's world and civil service.

[Atv300 69]

Another example - how many career firefighters can go an entire career (20 years) without ever getting trained to operate or drive an engine? Thats unheard of - all employees must be trained to the same standard and that includes being a driver of need be.

I am in my 23rd year....and I have never been qualified on an engine...never had the desire too, never been forced too.

And dont get me wrong Cap - I am really agreeing with you - just trying to show the other side and why these guys are so firm in their statements.

And I say BOY.

That's a whole different issue because some people don't belong driving period. And some people such as yourself that want to be interior can because the driving is done by someone usually a firefighter that no longer should or can be interior.

And it's a girl.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Atv300

[gamewell45 258]

It appears that the original question really refers to Mutual Aid. I can tell you that the IC doesn't want to hear he has an engine or truck coming only to learn upon their arrival that they cannot be used for some of the requisite tasks. If you guys use exterior people in your hometown, all the better, we do too (not career personnel of course). But our mutual aid pact requires engines and trucks respond with 5 Interior qualified personnel. The IC merely knows he has a a company coming and that he can assign them to whatever he needs. As far as we're concerned non-interior firefighters cannot count as company strength. We do not have any other career staffed companies around us, but if we did I'm confident we'd work them into our alarms earlier than closer VFD neighbors for the consistency alone. We have some great volunteer M/A partners, but of the course of time consistent staffed apparatus in a consistent time frame has not been proven to be a reality.

I think any pumper and/or ladder truck sent on M/A should have the prereqisite amount of trained interior firefighters on board; once they have met that, if they send along exteriors to assist outside performing tasks, such as changing air bottles, assisting the MPO, hydrant operations, rolling hose, etc, there should be no issue whatsoever. I think most incident commanders would welcome the extra help outside on the fire ground.

[x129K 1,393]

And it's a girl.

:)

[Atv300 69]

:)

Who knows maybe fifth generation FF/ officer lol

[BFD1054 1,552]

And it's a girl.

All this fire related stuff aside...Congrats bro and best wishes to you, baby and mom.

[Atv300 69]

All this fire related stuff aside...Congrats bro and best wishes to you, baby and mom.

Thank you

[Bnechis 3,961]

So everyone who thinks there should be no helpers why? Why can't we have people to help with task that have training weather its a minimum for being on a fire ground or simple someone for what ever reason can't be an interior at the time or for the rest of his life he or she is supposed to disappear and not share any of their knowledge or do what they still can.

There is nothing wrong with having helpers. But there are a few problems that come up:

1) Do not call them firefighters if they are helpers. When a department tells the community it has a 100 firefighters (or members) it never tells them that only 10 or 20 or whatever the number is are actually going to enter a burning structure to save their kids, parents, wife, etc. The community thinks it has great protection, when maybe it needs to reconsider its system.

2) I have seen incidents with 100's of "helpers" (most were just buffing) and they stood around watching someones home burn to the ground, while 4 FIREFIGHTERS tried to stop it. If you have more helpers onscene than firefighters, then they are not helping.

3) I find accountability at most fires is very very poor at best. Throw a lot of extra helpers in and it gets worst.

Dose a driver have to be or ever had to been an interior firefighter? If yes why???

No they do not have to be, but they are often much better pump operators if they have spent so time on the nob and gotten bounced around or not given enough water by the MPO.

Do you have to crawl down a smokey hallway to learn how to change out bottles, throw a ladder, get tools, hump hose, help the pump operator(MPO, chauffeur, driver, what ever you need to call them)??? If yes why I believe every firefighter needs to know these things but why cant we also have people that do not want to be interior help with the proper training of their own.

Yes you can but what % of the dept is a firefighter and what % is a helper. While its nice to have the extra hands outside, 99% of fire depts do not have enough firefighters to do the hard part.

I actually do agree on the trucks going mutual aide should not even leave the floor without a full interior crew.

Which in my mind means other communities get a better response from your department, than your own community.

[PVFD233 68]

Do not let "Hear Say" controlled by "Sour Grapes" determine M/A assignments. A few may lead you to believe a departments Manpower and Training is sub par when it is actually much better then stated.

[Atv300 69]

There is nothing wrong with having helpers. But there are a few problems that come up:

1) Do not call them firefighters if they are helpers. When a department tells the community it has a 100 firefighters (or members) it never tells them that only 10 or 20 or whatever the number is are actually going to enter a burning structure to save their kids, parents, wife, etc. The community thinks it has great protection, when maybe it needs to reconsider its system.

2) I have seen incidents with 100's of "helpers" (most were just buffing) and they stood around watching someones home burn to the ground, while 4 FIREFIGHTERS tried to stop it. If you have more helpers onscene than firefighters, then they are not helping.

3) I find accountability at most fires is very very poor at best. Throw a lot of extra helpers in and it gets worst.

No they do not have to be, but they are often much better pump operators if they have spent so time on the nob and gotten bounced around or not given enough water by the MPO.

Yes you can but what % of the dept is a firefighter and what % is a helper. While its nice to have the extra hands outside, 99% of fire depts do not have enough firefighters to do the hard part.

Which in my mind means other communities get a better response from your department, than your own community.

I get that but due to geography sometimes it means a quicker response since firefighter and exterior are closer to the scene and drivers live practically in the fire house. Like I have said might not work for everyone but it works for us especially in a town that would prolly would not be able to support a paid fire department at least not yet although I know is coming it has to with growth so we are preparing and looking to the future. It's not about the department is about your community

[antiquefirelt 994]

3) I find accountability at most fires is very very poor at best. Throw a lot of extra helpers in and it gets worst.

This is the one that gives us some heartburn when M/A shows up with "extra" helpers. We're fortunate that we can count on most of our M/A companies sending adequate numbers of interior firefighters, but the extra exterior firefighters often don't have an officer and or a true company assignment. 95% of the time this isn't a real issue, they help out where they can, but our fear is that they've never been properly accounted for.

As has been pointed out, and is especially true in this time of austere budgets, having a see of Nomex and shiny reflectors gives the public a vision that we have tons of firefighters basically standing around, leading them to believe staffing cuts are viable. Maybe these exterior folks need some sort of visual indicator that shows they're not fully classified firefighters? I know our State Labor Dept is always interested in how the IC can tell the difference between the various "levels" of FD responders, a real problem in most places where the system allows for less than fully qualified firefighters.

Edited September 22, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This is the one that gives us some heartburn when M/A shows up with "extra" helpers. We're fortunate that we can count on most of our M/A companies sending adequate numbers of interior firefighters, but the extra exterior firefighters often don't have an officer and or a true company assignment. 95% of the time this isn't a real issue, they help out where they can, but our fear is that they've never been properly accounted for.

As has been pointed out, and is especially true in this time of austere budgets, having a see of Nomex and shiny reflectors gives the public a vision that we have tons of firefighters basically standing around, leading them to believe staffing cuts are viable. Maybe these exterior folks need some sort of visual indicator that shows they're not fully classified firefighters? I know our State Labor Dept is always interested in how the IC can tell the difference between the various "levels" of FD responders, a real problem in most places where the system allows for less than fully qualified firefighters.

The simplest indicator can be the non presence of SCBA on an individual. Otherwise a different helmet color will do. Many places use this system

[Bnechis 3,961]

Do not let "Hear Say" controlled by "Sour Grapes" determine M/A assignments. A few may lead you to believe a departments Manpower and Training is sub par when it is actually much better then stated.

Fair enough. So the solution would be to have an annual standardized performance report form to the state comptroller. Currently all Counties, Cities, Towns, Villages and Fire Districts do this annually for financial reporting.

If every dept had to list response time, average manpower (day, night, weekday/weekend), interior vs. exterior, annual training, etc. Then the citizens who pay for the service would know what they are paying for and depts could not hide behind false "Hear Say".

Maybe then depts that are sub par will not do everything in their power to avoid change.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As has been pointed out, and is especially true in this time of austere budgets, having a see of Nomex and shiny reflectors gives the public a vision that we have tons of firefighters basically standing around, leading them to believe staffing cuts are viable. Maybe these exterior folks need some sort of visual indicator that shows they're not fully classified firefighters? I know our State Labor Dept is always interested in how the IC can tell the difference between the various "levels" of FD responders, a real problem in most places where the system allows for less than fully qualified firefighters.

The simplest indicator can be the non presence of SCBA on an individual. Otherwise a different helmet color will do. Many places use this system

Spin the wheels answer solves the issue for the IC, but not the public or the politicians.

I worked EMS in a community with a large combo dept. in the mid 1980's. They would have about 15-20 career ff's and 10-15 volunteer "helpers" at a working fire. Only 1 or 2 of the volunteers would be interior. So what you would see is most of the career staff inside and outside an IC and a couple of mpo's running around like crazy and a dozen sets of helpers in gear standing around waiting to pick up hose. It always looked like they had lots of guys because they did not even have "enough" work for all of them. During contract talks the union always complained that they guys were taking a beating and needed more men. The mayor would hold up the front page of the news and show them the sea of turnouts ready to help. The union would tell him they will not or can not go in, and he would tell them they have plenty of firefighters. Then one day the union told him it would be politically very bad if a volunteer was killed/injured and as they had lest training (which the mayor had always agreed with) they needed to do something to "protect them". New Helmets would be a great idea and they bought them all nice yellow helmets. The community still saw the sea of firefighters, but the union was able to prove to the mayor that all those yellow helmets in the news are not firefighters and he finally agreed.

[antiquefirelt 994]

The simplest indicator can be the non presence of SCBA on an individual. Otherwise a different helmet color will do. Many places use this system

This works to satisfy the DOL, but does nothing to diminish the public perception that fire scenes are rampant with firefighters thus giving the illusion that staffing is not an issue.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This works to satisfy the DOL, but does nothing to diminish the public perception that fire scenes are rampant with firefighters thus giving the illusion that staffing is not an issue.

You are 100% correct if your goal is to prove to the public the difference between Interior or Exterior or the public is questioning manpower issues.

But if a manpower issue is not in question or some type of point to prove is not a concern, who cares what the public sees. Short of dressing guys in hot pink gear I dont think the general public would notice anything different unless it was specifically pointed out to them.

[x129K 1,393]

I dont think the general public would notice anything different unless it was specifically pointed out to them.

I think that is the point of some here.

[gamewell45 258]

Spin the wheels answer solves the issue for the IC, but not the public or the politicians.

IMO most politicians could care less unless it means votes for them; likewise the public is more concerned with other pressing issues such as quality of education, the library, keeping taxes down to a minimum, etc.

In discussing our local fire department and lack of hydrants, my neighbor (who is not in the fire service) said that he could really care less, that's why he has fire insurance. Its a common attitude exhibted by much of the public who apparently do not want to be bothered with knowing how many firefighters or hydrants there are; just show up and if the house burns, then so be it. Poor attitude? Perhaps, but a stark reality in todays world.

[Bnechis 3,961]

IMO most politicians could care less unless it means votes for them; likewise the public is more concerned with other pressing issues such as quality of education, the library, keeping taxes down to a minimum, etc.

In discussing our local fire department and lack of hydrants, my neighbor (who is not in the fire service) said that he could really care less, that's why he has fire insurance. Its a common attitude exhibted by much of the public who apparently do not want to be bothered with knowing how many firefighters or hydrants there are; just show up and if the house burns, then so be it. Poor attitude? Perhaps, but a stark reality in todays world.

Yes you are correct on the additude of the general public. But thats because the fire service has done a very poor job at explaining the costs involved. Yes your neighbor has insurance, but does he know that he maybe paying 60-80% more for his insurance because he has no hydrants?

If the fire service has not sold itself and the public does not know, we can only blame ourselves.

[LTFIREPRG 154]

The bottom line is as an incident commander when I call for a mutual aid engine/ladder, I want a staffed engine/ladder with fully qualified firefighter’s (career or volunteer) to be able to perform what ever assignment they are needed for. I don’t want an engine/ladder with 2 firefighters and 3 helpers. If your are not a fully qualified firefighter then you should not be responding on mutual aid.

[50-65 205]

.... but does he know that he maybe paying 60-80% more for his insurance because he has no hydrants?

True, but in reality, that extra for insurance is pocket change when compared to the taxes he pays.