Mutual Aid - Who Do You Call

[gamewell45 258]

Good question. Why are exterior members going too? Why not admit there is a manpower shortage, and respond with what you have, or don't go.

I'd imagine it probably depends on the type of m/a call. Exteriors could be used for brush fire m/a calls (in my department, exteriors are used for brush fires), support work on scene depending on the requirements needed by the department calling for m/a. If your doing tanker operations, why send an interior out of your district to assist the mpo if he's going to be tied to the tanker?

No two mutual aid calls are the same; I think it depends on what the needs are at the time the mutual aid call is given as determined by the incident commander.

[50-65 205]

if NYS would step up to the plate and make a universal standard to be a firefighter we could avoid this. Sorry for the suggestion, FASNY.

Now that's just crazy talk!

Where my brother was upstate, all firefighters have the same training. You are issued a colored ID tag noting if you are interior, exterior, or driver only. They also run 3 staffed volunteer engines during the day to cover various parts of the county as first due. To eliminate the fights over whose insurance would be liable in the event of injury, the county took over the workers comp for all volunteers. Members of various departments can sign up to ride the 1st due engine with the hosting dept. supplying the driver.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Where my brother was upstate, all firefighters have the same training. You are issued a colored ID tag noting if you are interior, exterior, or driver only.

If they all have the same training, why 3 classifications?

Where I am we all have the same training and classify everyone as a firefighter.

[50-65 205]

50-65 - Orange County is a very unique animal. Granted they get the calls and handle them like professionals but at the same time seems to be so disorginized with mutual aid in a few sections of the county. It's just like the communications system (a hole different topic) If your talking specificly on mutual aid on the East side of the county, I think I know what part of your concern is.

After 3 years of every Friday night in Dutchess County, with all the problems that exist there, OC is so bass ackwards at times it amazes me that anything gets done.

I was talking M/A in general, but in eastern OC it was noted that a department put in their MAMA's plan for M/A from a dept with a 20+minute response time before calling for any m/a from nearly a dozen companies or so that may be quicker and are definately closer. But they are "guarenteed" a certain level of training. Maybe not so much from some of the others.

[50-65 205]

If they all have the same training, why 3 classifications?

Where I am we all have the same training and classify everyone as a firefighter.

Maybe I should have specified that all interior qualified firefighters have the same training. Would you classify a driver only or exterior only as a "firefighter"?

[Newburgher 241]

Come right out and say who you're talking about. When the department with the "20+ minute response time" can be on the scene quicker than the one that has a firehouse just outside the city limits, it should help paint the picture of what is going on here.Before you say it'll never happen, it already did.

This business isn't a game, and if you think it is, you're cheating the citizens who deserve a professional fire department as well as your Brother Firefighters and their families who are expecting the firefighters to come home in one piece.

[Newburgher 241]

Would you classify a driver only or exterior only as a "firefighter"?

Why would you classify them as a Firefighter?

[Atv300 69]

Again I ask why waste the manpower of the exterior guys that can do jobs that you will have to put interior guys to do when you need the interior guys to do what their trained to do. Yes if you call an engine for M/A you should get SCBA guys I am not arguing that but would you automatically throw out some great resource on the fire ground of exterior guys that can preform task to free up SCBA guys to do their job?

I'd imagine it probably depends on the type of m/a call. Exteriors could be used for brush fire m/a calls (in my department, exteriors are used for brush fires), support work on scene depending on the requirements needed by the department calling for m/a. If your doing tanker operations, why send an interior out of your district to assist the mpo if he's going to be tied to the tanker?

No two mutual aid calls are the same; I think it depends on what the needs are at the time the mutual aid call is given as determined by the incident commander.

Agreed 100% why use interior for task that can be accomplished by a exterior member.

Final Note how nice is it when those exterior guys help you pack up after kicking the crap out of your interior guys in the fire where they should be!

[Newburgher 241]

Again I ask why waste the manpower of the exterior guys that can do jobs that you will have to put interior guys to do when you need the interior guys to do what their trained to do. Yes if you call an engine for M/A you should get SCBA guys I am not arguing that but would you automatically throw out some great resource on the fire ground of exterior guys that can preform task to free up SCBA guys to do their job?

As it was said already, why should the IC have to figure out who can do what. He should be able to say, get this done, and not hear " I don't know how" or " I'm fire police" or whatever else they might say.

Final Note how nice is it when those exterior guys help you pack up after kicking the crap out of your interior guys in the fire where they should be!

I don't know about other departments, but we pick up our own hose. I don't remember any time we didn't.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Newburgher

[Newburgher 241]

Sorry, I can't seem to figure out this quote feature

[Atv300 69]

I don't know about other departments, but we pick up our own hose. I don't remember any time we didn't.

I am just trying to make a point that most people are writing the exterior guys off like they have no place on the fire ground. If I need man power I try to use everyone to their fullest just saying.

[everybodygoes 331]

In the immortal words of this nut case Chief I used to work with, The Marines!

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If they all have the same training, why 3 classifications?

Where I am we all have the same training and classify everyone as a firefighter.

Do you have guys working that are on "light duty". And do they/could they perform some functiuon at a fire scene if needed. Limited exterior work, fill bottles, staging officers or other IC roles. Some paid departments have guys like this that would be like "exterior" firefighters in a volunteer system.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe I should have specified that all interior qualified firefighters have the same training. Would you classify a driver only or exterior only as a "firefighter"?

Civil service does not have a driver or exterior only. They require all our members to be interior firefighters.

Again I ask why waste the manpower of the exterior guys that can do jobs that you will have to put interior guys to do when you need the interior guys to do what their trained to do. Yes if you call an engine for M/A you should get SCBA guys I am not arguing that but would you automatically throw out some great resource on the fire ground of exterior guys that can preform task to free up SCBA guys to do their job?

Agreed 100% why use interior for task that can be accomplished by a exterior member.

Final Note how nice is it when those exterior guys help you pack up after kicking the crap out of your interior guys in the fire where they should be!

If you have enough firefighters responding to your incident, you do not need "outside" helpers. If you do not have enough then yes it would be nice. As another poster said, we pick up our own hose.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Do you have guys working that are on "light duty". And do they/could they perform some functiuon at a fire scene if needed. Limited exterior work, fill bottles, staging officers or other IC roles. Some paid departments have guys like this that would be like "exterior" firefighters in a volunteer system.

Very risky under civil service and pension laws as you could lose your pension or be reclassified and lose your job.

[redman 2]

A few yrs ago we responded to a report of structure fire on the boarder of our district we arrived on scene heavy smoke coming from a 1 story commercial building. The paid dept. which we boarder was on scene also and was stretching lines the building was the first building over our boarder. The IC said its ours our chief said ok do you need any assistance they said no we got it. we stayed a few min the fire started to go through the roof the IC called a 2nd alarm then a 3rd alarm. My point is the IC had 25 guys ready to go to work and assist why turn down help that is already there? If I was the store owner I would be really mad that help was turned away because we are not paid and I lost my whole building.

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

A few yrs ago we responded to a report of structure fire on the boarder of our district we arrived on scene heavy smoke coming from a 1 story commercial building. The paid dept. which we boarder was on scene also and was stretching lines the building was the first building over our boarder. The IC said its ours our chief said ok do you need any assistance they said no we got it. we stayed a few min the fire started to go through the roof the IC called a 2nd alarm then a 3rd alarm. My point is the IC had 25 guys ready to go to work and assist why turn down help that is already there? If I was the store owner I would be really mad that help was turned away because we are not paid and I lost my whole building.

Career training vs Volunteer training. Hundreds of hours that are mandated, or 10 hours that are mandated. With career personnel, you know that every firefighter is trained the exact same way as the guy sitting next to him, or the guy in your department. State standards mandate this. Volunteers, because of the "wonderful" work FASNY has done, have 0 requirements. All that is required is the federally mandated 10 hours of "on the job osha training," which varies from department to department. 10 hours... which is less then 1 hour a month of training, to go inside a burning building and be responsible for people's livelihood.

Yes, many volunteers go way above and beyond the call and perform hundreds of individual hours. No one here is doubting whether or not volunteers hearts and minds are in the right place. It takes some serious balls to run into a burning building for free.

Where in the problem lies, is that there is 0 standard as to what volunteers need. It's left up to the "authority having jurisdiction". That AHJ could mandate that all interior members need FF1, FF2, Fast, Survival, hazmat ops, confined space rescue, cat in tree rescue, aircraft rescue and vehicle rescue before they step foot on a truck to respond, or the could say, "meh, our in-house course is good enough. Here's a hand-line, this is how you open the bale, stay low, now go and put the wet stuff on the red stuff."

A set list of mandated training across the board (which is what MANY other states have done) requiring that career and volunteer personnel are trained exactly the same way would be in the best interest of everyone; volunteers, career, mutual aid, and most importantly, the citizens you took an oath to protect.

[FirNaTine 370]

"Professional", now here's a word misused more often then once. "Training" for the most part nothing more then a paper trail to cover ones a**. Ive seen both Career and Volunteer members with enough certificates, diplomas and training hrs. to stretch a mile and they're friggin clueless, like a deer in headlights when they're on scene. Not everyone can apply what they've learned or for that matter even want to try. Doesn't matter whether you have an IAFF sticker on your car or "Ex Chief" on the back of your turnout coat you have to want to learn and apply yourself otherwise it's for naut. JMO.

Edited September 18, 2012 by FirNaTine

[Newburgher 241]

"Professional", now here's a word misused more often then once. "Training" for the most part nothing more then a paper trail to cover ones a**. Ive seen both Career and Volunteer members with enough certificates, diplomas and training hrs. to stretch a mile and they're friggin clueless, like a deer in headlights when they're on scene. Not everyone can apply what they've learned or for that matter even want to try. Doesn't matter whether you have an IAFF sticker on your car or "Ex Chief" on the back of your turnout coat you have to want to learn and apply yourself otherwise it's for naut. JMO.

Just to clarify, the context I used the word in, doesn't include the word paycheck.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Very risky under civil service and pension laws as you could lose your pension or be reclassified and lose your job.

So noted.

[50-65 205]

Sitting here in my house listening to mutual aid responding to a second call in City of Newburgh passing through 2 other districts to get there. Aaawwweesome!

[Newburgher 241]

Sorry it doesn't meet with your approval. So what should the solution be? You seem to know what's best for us.

BTW, is it any different than mutual aid coming through the city to get to a fire in your district?

[16fire5 693]

Sitting here in my house listening to mutual aid responding to a second call in City of Newburgh passing through 2 other districts to get there. Aaawwweesome!

Took me a while to figure out what your beef is but now I got it. You seem to have a problem with CIty of Newburgh calling the Air Guard and West Point. Maybe you should take it through the channels and let them know you will will be able to respond within a certain amount of minutes with a full interior crew everytime you are called. Then you might have a beef but right now it appears many department "hit and hope". Didn't Newburgh have to rotate mutual aid anyway because the closest departments complained about being called too much? Did you have complaints about that arrangement?

[50-65 205]

Took me a while to figure out what your beef is but now I got it. You seem to have a problem with CIty of Newburgh calling the Air Guard and West Point. Maybe you should take it through the channels and let them know you will will be able to respond within a certain amount of minutes with a full interior crew everytime you are called. Then you might have a beef but right now it appears many department "hit and hope". Didn't Newburgh have to rotate mutual aid anyway because the closest departments complained about being called too much? Did you have complaints about that arrangement?

I don't have a "beef" with anyone. Well, let me clarify that a little. I certainly have no beef with the City of Newburgh. They are a professional group doing a difficult job under very difficult circumstances. With the limited manpower, they have no choice but to call mutual aid.

Granted, when calling a staffed department for mutual aid, you know they are getting out the door relatively quickly. As Newburgher pointed out, even though West Point is some 20 minutes away, by the time a closer department gets the call, crews up, and responds, I have no doubt that WP could actually get there faster.

My department has responded there when we were on the rotation and have been special called there as well. We are currently on their MAMA's plan as mutual aid. And we also utilize Newburgh and Air Guard at times for our m/a.

My main "beef", if that's what you want to call it, actually lies, mostly, with volunteer departments who often call M/A based on personalities rather than appropriateness.

And my department is no different. because of certain politics and policies, we don't always call the closest department either.

As far as my input into the way things are done or not done, I have none. I am just a worker ant. I can express my opinion to the powers that be, but not being in the controlling entities, it matters little what my opinion is.

My main focus for the original post was to faciltate discussion and thinking about what is best for the taxpayers and those we protect and help in our respective districts. Unfortunately, as is often the case with this forum, it has denigrated into a "us" vs. "them" pissing match.

[50-65 205]

Sorry it doesn't meet with your approval. So what should the solution be? You seem to know what's best for us.

BTW, is it any different than mutual aid coming through the city to get to a fire in your district?

My approval is not necessary. And no, I do not know what is best for your district and haven't claimed to. If what you are doing is working well, keep it.

As for others responding through the city to get to us, if I were the IC, and I needed m/a, I would certainly call the city before someone who would have to pass through from the other side.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Sitting here in my house listening to mutual aid responding to a second call in City of Newburgh passing through 2 other districts to get there. Aaawwweesome!

Maybe i'm wrong, but Newburgh is like any other FD...they give AND receive M/A.

They have their assignments set-up like most depts. with the intent of NOT stripping the entire area. Thus, some depts may feel as they are getting "skipped over."

For the 2nd Alarm last night, they called Air Guard for the FAST. This is part of the assignment and it makes perfect sense. Air Guard is a STAFFED FD and they are a quick, straight shot down 17K into the City. If i were a NFD member, i'd feel good knowing the FAST will get to the scene as fast (pun intended) as possible,

They also called for an Engine from West Point, also part of their updated alarm assignment. Again, makes perfect sense as West Point is a FULLY staffed FD. Yes it may take them awhile to get into the City, but most likely not any longer than a closer volunteer company.

Its no secret that career FD's like to utilize other career FD's when possible and its not secret why either.

There were 2 volunteer companies operating at the 2nd alarm alongside the career members of Newburgh, West Point and the Air Guard.

There were also 2 separate volunteer companies that were re-located into the City and handled several calls, including a small electrical fire.

I honestly don't see a problem with Newburgh's alarm assignments. They know what works best for them and they write up their assignment requests as such.

*Newburgher....Lieutenant, please correct me if any of my info regarding NFDs assignments were incorrect. (by the way, Hell of a job to you and your guys last night!).

[16fire5 693]

I just read an incident alert from Westchester where a volunteer department requested a farther away volunteer department as a FAST and later on called for the closer career department FAST. It appears the closer career department beat the volunteer department called 5 minutes before them. I don't understand why these departments don't have those departments on automatic response. I speculate it's because they don't want to get beat in to all their fires. I'm sure the person who's house on fire would disagree.

In the volunteer system where the firehouse is not staffed driving distance dosen't really mean anything. There are so many variables like. How many members they have, when they are available, and how far they live or work from the firehouse. Some spread out districts take 10 minutes to get on the road and other dense village departments get out in 2 minutes.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I'll tell you what has helped response times on mutual aid calls in my little corner of the world is the use of nextell push to talk groups, blackberry and I-phone message groups.

When ever a neighboring dept signs on with a "next to, vicinity of, across from" call, or when the county dispatch uses the "code" when it sounds like work, one of the younger "buffs' gets on one of these groups our company has set up and lets everyone know whats what. Guys start heading to the firehouse. Most of the time if I dont head out when this "chatter" starts up, I miss the rig. Most of the time the rig is loading up and almost ready to head out before the dispatcher hits our tones. Most of the departments in my area do this sort of thing. Our mutual aid response times have shortend drastically due to this system.

Now again, in my little corner of the world this works, we dont have a long drive to get to the firehouses but I would imagine departments with a long travel time to the firehouse setting up a system like this would help. It also gives you an idea who's responding. A few years ago this sort of thing happened on a weekday about 1pm and believe it or not I was pulling into your very own Stu Leonards! Sorry guys not available!!!

[Dinosaur 844]

Maybe I should have specified that all interior qualified firefighters have the same training. Would you classify a driver only or exterior only as a "firefighter"?

Here's another part of the problem. Some departments call every member a firefighter whether they have training or not. They all have uniforms, they all march in parades, and when the town asks, they're counted in the head count of "firefighters". This only makes the problem of understaffing worse when we lie to ourselves and our constituents.

Some departments only have a handful of "interior" firefighters and rely heavily on others to assist them. Is that the right thing to do?

One standard for FF statewide in NY would be a great first step toward eliminating the rift between career and volunteer. But so long as FASNY has anything to say about it, we'll just suffer with the different standards and misrepresentation.

[16fire5 693]

In the volunteer system where the firehouse is not staffed driving distance dosen't really mean anything. There are so many variables like. How many members they have, when they are available, and how far they live or work from the firehouse. Some spread out districts take 10 minutes to get on the road and other dense village departments get out in 2 minutes.

I know I am entering a whole new realm by quoting myself here but I had the opportunity to view the operation of some departments in Minnesota. I won't call them volunteer because they are not and they do not call themselves that. They are paid on call but it's not much money in the end. But one thing they do and is pretty common in that area of the country is they have a radius around each firehouse and you must live in that radius to be a member. It helps them get out quick. That among other things showed how squared away they were.