Bail out systems......

[spin_the_wheel 460]

What systems are your Departments going with? Are some not getting them?

My Dept. is in the process of outfitting and training all Interior firefighters with the Gemtor class 2 harness and Petzl EXO bail out system with the new hook design.

We had to do a combination of 10 different jumps. 2 from window sill and 2 from substantial object in bunker pants, and helmet. The same jumps in full gear with SCBA. Then 1 with full gear on air, and the last in full gear on air and blacked out face piece.

It knocked the hell out of me. The actual steps in executing the jumps are not hard at all. It was the number of jumps that wore me down. (And most of the older guys as well!)

For those who have the systems in place, has any special procedures been developed with this adition to the gear? Like not having to wear pants or bag for brush fires.

It really did not add alot of weight to the pants, but I have yet to work at any length at a worker yet. Driving can be a problem if your cab area is tight for the Chauff. and Officer. It sits awkard on the right side towards your back. If your used to wearing your portable radio slung to the right side this will interfere with the bag, and the moves you will need to do. If you know your getting a system wear the bag is on the right side start wearing your radio to the left. It takes some time to get used to, espiecially if you have been wearing it like this for a long period of time.

Petzl has a new bag system that is on the right leg, sort of wear your pocket may be if you have them on your pants. Anybody have this bag/pocket?

I have only tried 2 systems the NARS/RPI system and the Petzl which we went with.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

[grumpyff 1,159]

We went with the RPI personal Escape system. http://rpiinc.net/. It is attached to the Gemtor harness, has a lumbar pouch, and deploys from the left side. Training was about the same, I think we had to do 7 or 8 slides, which towards the end people were feeling it.

The lumbar pouch is nice, it keeps most of the system out of the way. The rope is packaged in a shrink wrap, so it is easy to inspect. The hook is on the left side, and it does reduce access to the left bunker pant pocket. The hook is packaged so that you find the left leg strap of the Gemtor, and follow it up to the pouch when it is time to deploy .Some of our smaller members do not like it, they say it makes their waist to big to fit under bunker coats. One thing we did learn is the system does not work too well with bunker coats with zippers, as the bottom of the coat is too tight, and can hinder getting to the hook and pouch to deploy.

The system does add some weight to the pants, but the only time I really notice it is when I am getting dressed for a call as you pull up the bunker pants. Occasionally the suspender will catch under the left side of the pouch.

Edited September 15, 2012 by grumpyff

[50-65 205]

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Edited September 15, 2012 by 50-65

[GBFD109 55]

Gemtor 541NYC style harness, Sterling Rope F4 Descent Device.

[JM15 386]

Any other thoughts on these systems? Are most of the Depts. out there getting them?

You should have at least done a "hazard assesment" to determine if a system is needed for your jurisdiction as is required by law. If you have any buildings higher than two stories than you should have a "system" as your members are at risk for entrapment according to the wording.

http://assembly.stat...&Text=Y&Votes=Y

Edited October 10, 2012 by JM15

[16fire5 693]

My Dept. is in the process of outfitting and training all Interior firefighters with the Gemtor class 2 harness and Petzl EXO bail out system with the new hook design.

Probably the most common in this area. It is the system NYC went with. Many companies with FDNY instructors pushing the system. Since the FDNY went with this system and the law was passed there has been lots of other competitors and new systems. Don't fall into this is the best because FDNY has it. Remember when you go with Petzl you have to use their authorized instructors.

It knocked the hell out of me. The actual steps in executing the jumps are not hard at all. It was the number of jumps that wore me down. (And most of the older guys as well!)

Some of us did full days of jumps while our system was being developed and tested. Bruised and tired.

It really did not add alot of weight to the pants, but I have yet to work at any length at a worker yet. Driving can be a problem if your cab area is tight for the Chauff. and Officer. It sits awkard on the right side towards your back. If your used to wearing your portable radio slung to the right side this will interfere with the bag, and the moves you will need to do. If you know your getting a system wear the bag is on the right side start wearing your radio to the left. It takes some time to get used to, espiecially if you have been wearing it like this for a long period of time.

Petzl has a new bag system that is on the right leg, sort of wear your pocket may be if you have them on your pants. Anybody have this bag/pocket?

There are other expensive bags out there including the new lumbar bag which gets mixed reviews. It comes down to this You can not hide 50 feet of rope.

Some of our smaller members do not like it, they say it makes their waist to big to fit under bunker coats. One thing we did learn is the system does not work too well with bunker coats with zippers, as the bottom of the coat is too tight, and can hinder getting to the hook and pouch to deploy.

This is a problem with most systems that are on the harness. The other option is putting the rope in one of the leg pockets. I believe this is what Yonkers does. They have the leg pocket custom designed to carry the rope. The two problems I have with this is that if the pocket is down by the knee it is a lot of leg work to lift the weight (more work than if you carried the same weight in your coat pockets). The other thing is that you then need a lanyard which is just another thing to catch on the bicycle inside the door to the apartment. The best system I have seen (my opinion only) is the Yonkers style pocket on the turnout pants just below the harness at the point of harness attachment this way it is low enough for the coat to not get interfered with and high enough that you are not lifting it with your knee.

The system does add some weight to the pants, but the only time I really notice it is when I am getting dressed for a call as you pull up the bunker pants. Occasionally the suspender will catch under the left side of the pouch.

Take the time and set your pants up and you can eliminate this. I put my suspenders on top of the pouch and bunch some between my legs so it will not catch on anything. I store my pants with the harness snapped which I find keeps things more neat.

As for GBFD the F4 is nice and I probably like it best but it is not perfect. One nice thing about it is it actually slides a little when released instead of shocking the body. The Illinois Fire Service Institute has been researching these systems head to head and the F4 did extremely well in their tests.

Edited October 10, 2012 by 16fire5

[rayrider 94]

Any other thoughts on these systems? Are most of the Depts. out there getting them?

All of the devices/systems out there accomplish the same task in the end. It really comes down to personal preference but more important is outfitting yourself and your dept sooner than later. Whatever you decide to choose now, a new and improved device will probally be developed in the near future anyways. Just an example, We (FIrst Due Training) recently trained the entire Newark NJ FD this past summer and they chose the f-4 device, fire tech rope, stored in a lumbar bag with the crosby hook. Inbox me if you have any other questions!

[GBFD109 55]

@16fire - - I love my F4. Ive trained on it a number of times and its just so simple to use. 1 Handed operation is great. I feel way more comfortable with a free hand coming out the window. No more having to lock of the rope system with a hand against the wall so i can focus on keeping the anchor in place on my way out the window.

As for not being able to hide 50ft of rope, your right, theres no way to go about hiding it completely. I dont know much about it and maybe JM15 from Somers FD can elaborate, but if my memory serves me correctly they have a system built into their SCBA's which keeps the entire PES out of the way until you need it.

Elaboration Mackey?

[JM15 386]

@16fire - - I love my F4. Ive trained on it a number of times and its just so simple to use. 1 Handed operation is great. I feel way more comfortable with a free hand coming out the window. No more having to lock of the rope system with a hand against the wall so i can focus on keeping the anchor in place on my way out the window.

As for not being able to hide 50ft of rope, your right, theres no way to go about hiding it completely. I dont know much about it and maybe JM15 from Somers FD can elaborate, but if my memory serves me correctly they have a system built into their SCBA's which keeps the entire PES out of the way until you need it.

Elaboration Mackey?

We got rid of that system do to complaints from members... We had the Scott pack integrated one. In theory it worked great BUT you only had your Scott pack waist strap keeping you in the system ( No leg straps or harness)... not very comfortable when going out a window and hanging, we had multiple members who couldn't even finish their required jumps due to the literal pain in the ribs it was giving them. That system used thin webbing which we have kept and moved to our gear pocket and that seems to work out great. One advantage to the webbing is how thin it is... you can really pack it in there with minimal bulk. We are now currently using the Gemtor Harness with the RIT system with the thin webbing in our right pocket.

Edit: Some pros of the Integrated system were easy maintenance, and the lower cost since we only had to purchase systems for each pack not member.

This is the system you are talking about... I heard another local department was looking at it... http://www.ritrescuesystems.com/product_detail.php?id=10

Edited October 17, 2012 by JM15

[201/65 94]

My department is in the second year of having all interior trained members issued and trained in emergency bailout. We utilize the RIT Systems Class II nylon harness (with ladder hook), CMC escape artist descender, and 50' of rope in a leg pocket.

Once is was determined we needed the systems the chiefs and officers studied multiple systems and harnesses before coming to this determination. After using a Gemtor harness previously I initially disliked the full class II harness, I thought it was to bulky and slowed me getting dressed, now I am glad we went with this harness. Having a class II harness on for every call has gotten members a lot more comfortable when training for technical rescue. With the exception if having to switch to a full body harness every member comes equipped with their own harness already, and since we are volunteer and aren't usually "dressed for success" most are better off staying in bunker pants and boots and don't even have to take the harness off to switch it over. We also opted for the ladder hook, it has a self centering attachment and can be stored to the side tight to the body.

The descender is a very simple operation and is stored neatly in the rope pocket pouch with the crosby hook, an 8" webbing strap and steel triangle is all that is exposed, and that is clipped to stay inline with the leg strap, keeping it out of the way.

Our initial training included instructor certification for 10 members with at least FSI I, and factory training for every member. The company brought out a specialized box truck to train everyone in house. Since we have successfully a few new members on our own using the Orange County FTC, and performed our first annual re-certification on every member. Since we don't yet have a bailout simulator at home we rented the box truck from AAA and did 90% of the re-certification in the parking lot on 1 day.

[corporal 6]

We got rid of that system do to complaints from members... We had the Scott pack integrated one. In theory it worked great BUT you only had your Scott pack waist strap keeping you in the system ( No leg straps or harness)... not very comfortable when going out a window and hanging, we had multiple members who couldn't even finish their required jumps due to the literal pain in the ribs it was giving them. That system used thin webbing which we have kept and moved to our gear pocket and that seems to work out great. One advantage to the webbing is how thin it is... you can really pack it in there with minimal bulk. We are now currently using the Gemtor Harness with the RIT system with the thin webbing in our right pocket.

Edit: Some pros of the Integrated system were easy maintenance, and the lower cost since we only had to purchase systems for each pack not member.

This is the system you are talking about... I heard another local department was looking at it... http://www.ritrescue...etail.php?id=10

Some cons about the scott system: as stated it only has a class 1 waist belt, the system self deployed at least twice during training and became entangled in the members legs, some members had difficulty breathing while hanging in the class 1 waist strap, and if you have to remove your air pack for any reason you lose your bailout system.

[moggie6 54]

I would like to see more "bail out system used firefighter close call" type stories. To kind of back up this whole bail out system idea. I know why the legislation was passed etc but at the end of the day someone is making money on the deaths of brother firefighters. It would be nice to see and read stories of the systems being used and someones face saying "hey man I thought I was done and then I used the xyz system and got out of there."

[SOUSGT 357]

I would like to see more "bail out system used firefighter close call" type stories. To kind of back up this whole bail out system idea. I know why the legislation was passed etc but at the end of the day someone is making money on the deaths of brother firefighters. It would be nice to see and read stories of the systems being used and someones face saying "hey man I thought I was done and then I used the xyz system and got out of there."

To go one step further. How many lives will the system save compared to the amount of injuries sustained in training.

[roofsopen19 34]

Removed

Edited December 13, 2012 by roofsopen19

[JM15 386]

One RIT (Ridiculous Integrated Toy) system, to go with our RIT (Ridiculous Integrated Toy) harness. Such a silly system. We had a sales person with a good pitch.

NO FIREFIGHTER SHOULD HAVE TO ATTEMPT TO REACH INTO A POCKET, THATS INSIDE ANOTHER POCKET, WITH A GLOVED HAND ONLY TO FIND/OR NOT FIND THE CROSBY HOOK BURIED UNDER 50 FEET OF ROPE! Especially in the blink of an eye.

Give me my 50 ft piece of rope and carabiner back Pleeeaassee!

Department Anonymous

Northern Westchester

With training and setting it up properly I don't have a problem finding my crosby hook? Its not buried under 50 feet of rope..

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I have since worked a few fires with the bag and to be honest during the "heat" of the moment working I did not even know it was on. During the overhaul stages, climbing up and down some stairs a few times, moving and "chucking stuff" I was starting to feel it.

Working MVA's when you need a tool it can get in the way when your trying to get your body in some tight spots in and around the car while using the tool.

Overall the jury is still out on my feelings on it.

On a side note I do have a spare set of gear. No bail out system on it. After one of the working fires my gear was drying and I used the spare. It felt like I was wearing a pair of jeans compared to what it feels like wearing a set with the bail out system. And to think we all complained about the weight of the bunker gear when we first got it. I wonder what it would feel like wearing hip boots at a fire now!!!!

[rhlongo 0]

In my previous department we trained and certified yearly with the Petzel System. We did monthly deployments(Non stress on the rope) and inspected and replaced in the pouch. Pouch is bulky on the side, but it really is compact condidering the rope and hook and not difficult to deploy with gloves. Yea the 10 slides was tough on my "older" body,

My current department uses the harness with a rope bag and hook in my bunker pocket. Certainly not so easy

to deploy and connection to the harness does catch on things.

I agree, check your departments requirements for type of system and do the homework. Remember this system is for YOUR safety, My choice for safety, I have not tried every system, is the Petzel system.

[x129K 1,393]

. I wonder what it would feel like wearing hip boots at a fire now!!!!

Like.......LIBERATION!