Virginia moves to allow ambulance crews to carry guns

[firedude 985]

I could have missed it, but does NYSDOH have any Policy Statements on this topic?

Virginia moves to allow ambulance crews to carry guns

Continuing the general regulatory trend started by Governor Mark Warner (D), and continued by Governor Bob McDonnell ®, Virginia is continuing to strike more state regulations banning gun carry. This time it's Old Domination ambulance crews who will regain their right to bear arms.

Full Article: http://www.examiner....s-to-carry-guns

[JetPhoto 626]

Seems kind of stupid, last thing you want is a patient to go and grab your gun

[nycemt728 49]

While I admit there might be some rural areas where waiting for pd backup might be an issue, it really is not an issue for EMS because if you need pd, you're not entering the scene. As an EMT, one of the greatest deterrents I have is not looking like a police officer and not being visibly armed. There is a calming effect on those in need that might be otherwise unwiling to speak to law enforcement, add the gun and you automatically resemble law enforcement, and waste valuable time and trust attempting to explain that you are not. Can it save a life? Unquestionably, but it can equally (and I think more likely) put you in danger. Since the law is simply repealing a ban, it doesn't provide any sort of law enforcement training that I would hope that ANYONE who is going to be in the position to use a weapon in the course of one's duty should have.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I'm generally a proponent of gun rights, but this doesn't seem to a good idea. As noted above, very often EMS and Fire crews are the good guys when it comes to bad guys. No doubt there are places where no one is safe, but again as noted above, this is when you stage and await PD's clearing of the scene.

[JM15 386]

I am pro-gun... Correct me if I am wrong but from reading that article they just repealed the law that made it illegal to carry in an ambulance, but wouldn't it then be up to the agencies SOP's or rules regarding this issue... This isn't a notice for every EMT in Virginia to get a gun.. they just took it out of the states jurisdiction.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I am pro-gun... Correct me if I am wrong but from reading that article they just repealed the law that made it illegal to carry in an ambulance, but wouldn't it then be up to the agencies SOP's or rules regarding this issue... This isn't a notice for every EMT in Virginia to get a gun.. they just took it out of the states jurisdiction.

While that may be accurate, it's seems like tacit approval for EMS employees to begin to carry. There had to be some thought behind repealing this?

[cas2383 22]

Seems like job security to me

[Atv300 69]

I can't say I would agree with a gun how about a taser though it could come in handy from time to time.

[Jybehofd 85]

why not. train them attach them to a tactical esu unit. then you don't have to worry that the last man/woman in the line doesn't have a weapon but has a weapon and an IV needle. I hate to say it. more and more budgets are getting cut and fire and police have been crossed trained more to keep there numbers up with ems calls. well i wish i had a cop on every call but its rare, do i think ems should have a weapon locked in the the rig in a strong box, why not. I would rather see more less lethal things like a tazer and or spray. But a knife at a gun fight never helps when PD is 30 mins out. its all over in 2 minutes.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Would LEO's want to be onscene when the s*** hit the fan and EMS started to draw guns? Does it throw more security or more confusion into the incident and does it make the scene safer or not?

I am not talking about EMS providers who are trained/attached to an ESU/Swat team. Just your every day EMS worker.

[orangEMT246 6]

Next we will be hearing this on the news. Ambulance company "A" and ambulance company "B" pull up to a scene. They argue who gets the patient. Guns are drawn by the EMS crews. You get the idea.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Next we will be hearing this on the news. Ambulance company "A" and ambulance company "B" pull up to a scene. They argue who gets the patient. Guns are drawn by the EMS crews. You get the idea.

It is not Ambulance company "A" and ambulance company "B" its "F & B" ambulance and "Unit" ambulance.

[dwcfireman 656]

I am pro-gun... Correct me if I am wrong but from reading that article they just repealed the law that made it illegal to carry in an ambulance, but wouldn't it then be up to the agencies SOP's or rules regarding this issue... This isn't a notice for every EMT in Virginia to get a gun.. they just took it out of the states jurisdiction.

This is the same fashion how the federal goverment repealed regulations that now allow commercial pilots to carry guns with them. Not all pilots carry guns, and some airlines (usually smaller, regional airlines) prohibit their pilots from carrying. I don't fully agree the new legislation, especially when I own guns myself. I would never carry a gun on the fire truck, so why should EMT's need them on the bus. It cracks open pandora's box to a world of hurt and liability. Going back to the airlines, I don't agree with pilots being able to carry, either. Company/Agency rules and regulations for carrying weapons are far less strict than those in law enforcement agencies.

Changing the subject a bit; An Army friend of mine once said, "You can teach anyone to fire a weapon and hit a target, but not everyone can be taught to shoot a person." Some people, even those in law enforcement and the military, freeze up in a situation where they're being attacked or have a gun drawn back on them. The same thing will happen when a gung-ho EMT draws his weapon on a man who just shot his wife and children. Will this 24 year old EMS know-it-all pull the trigger, or will he end up in the morgue after he himself gets shot? This is where I agree with some of the others in this thread that non-lethal tasers and/or mace may be more acceptable. Then again, we should just fall back on our training and stage elsewhere until the police come in and do their job. Fire departments fight fire, EMS fights death, and Police departments fight crime. I'll gladly wait 30 minutes for a police officer if that's what I need to do.

[LFD34 12]

How does Greenburgh handle this. Their medics are sworn police officers.

[MoFire390 118]

Some lf their medics are police officers. If you look at the medic trucks which are used for the police they say police on them. Its only until you look closely do you see the DOH stickers. Not actually sure how this works I'll ask around for you and get a straight answer.

I'm all about the right to beare arms, but this just seems crazy to me. I'd be to worried about who I have on the ambulance and do I actually trust them with a gun. Some I can't even trust to drive an ambulance. There should be some kind of training required to have members who are in EMS to carry guns.

[Medic442 15]

I would just be happy if they would allow a PO to carry while riding on the bus while txp a disruptive Pt to the Hosp. I know this just goes back to policies.

[crcocr1 8]

The issue rests on bioethics, law, and common sense.

First and foremost, what type of message is sent by an EMS provider carrying a weapon, such as a pistol, onto a scene with a person needing medical assistance? Has the EMS agency that allows its providers to carry such a weapon considered potential liability issues if the weapon is drawn or negligently used, at a minimum? Has the EMS provider considered the chilling effect it may have on a patient being honest and candor in a medical assessment?

Second, what if any effect will the law have on those EMS providers who chose to carry while on duty? If the agency bills Medicare/Medicaid, it may be violating Medicare/Medicaid guidelines. See 42 CFR 482.13(f) (CMS does not consider the use of weapons in the application of restraint as safe appropriate health care interventions. We consider the term "weapons" to include pepper spray, mace, nightsticks, Tazers, cattle prods, stun guns, pistols and other such devices. Security staff may carry weapons as allowed by hospital policy and state and federal law. The use of weapons by security staff is considered as a law enforcement use and not a health care intervention.)

Third, what will be next on this slippery slope? Will EMS Providers next carry handcuffs that may hurt a patient?

These points seem salient when EMS providers traditionally were thought as a safe haven/sanctuary from the world, so that patients, no matter what type of class (law enforcement, suspect, etc), may heal without interference from society.

Of course, these comments are not to construed as saying that patients do not get abusive, violent, or otherwise dangerous. However, when a patient presented in an abusive or aggressive manner, solid training would dictate the involvement of law enforcement as a protective measure, for both the EMS provider and the patient.

Edited November 26, 2012 by crcocr1

[sympathomedic 383]

Within the last year, there was a shooting, fatal, in Porto Rico when two ambulance companies fought over a pt.

My position is: If there is no gun in my ambulance I cannot be shot. Other than PD, probably over 99% of the time there is no gun. If EMS carries guns, then there will be a gun in my unit 100% of the time + my partners gun. This exponentially increases my chance of being shot. Like BLS before ALS; if you think you need a gun, you should try pepper spray and a taser. If that isn't enough for you, maybe you do need a gun. In the YO we get a crew assaulted every once in a while, but I am pretty sure we have never been assaulted with a deadly weapon.- Not that I can think of. Dans spit cup not withstanding.

I have fled a few scenes in fear of assault, and all ended just fine. If I was armed may have felt I should stand my ground. In that case I may have killed someone- not what I signed up for. I likely would have to declare bankruptcy to pay to defend myself in court. My house, retirement savings and the kids college money would go away.

For those who may not recall, a former medic in Westchester accidentally shot her ex husband police officer to death a few years back. Found not guilty but spent much for it.

[x129K 1,393]

Billy - what about the shooting we responded to by 304/74's house....a young John Scheidt as a medic student in the back...south on Broadway, right at mcClean...the person in the middle of the street...what was that he was pointing at us? You know, that thing he had shouldered?

Right...an umbrella! HAhahahaaa......THAT was tense for a minute...."OMG he has a gun pointed at us!" Thank God I chose to brake hard and not run his stupid a** over!

And if I were still your partner, we would have at LEAST 4 guns in the bus....

[comical115 32]

Right...an umbrella! HAhahahaaa......THAT was tense for a minute...."OMG he has a gun pointed at us!" Thank God I chose to brake hard and not run his stupid a** over!

Exactly...

How many times did you hear the story of a crew working up a guy who was shot (*insert number of gun shot wounds here*) in the back of the bus when the perp comes back and asks if the patient is going to make it? *Spoiler Alert* The perp proceeds to unload whatever he didn't use the first time around into the patient in the back of the bus and he walks away, leaving the crew to ponder which protocol this exact situation falls under... Well NOW the perp assumes that the two Paramedics and the two EMT's who are crammed in the back fo the bus are armed, so now he has four *more* targets before he "finishes the job"...

Bottom line, the list of disadvantages for having a firearm on my person while working as a paramedic is *far* longer then the list of advantages.