Somers CO Incident Response

[Atv300 69]

We were are customer based business why not make cuts where you can to allow for improvements in other areas fuel usage is a good area to start. The average engine gets any where from ill say realistically 4 to 6 miles per gallon could be more or less depending on the truck. I would say a utility vehicle could get anywhere from 10 to 16 miles per gallon do the math on savings per call that can be handled by the smaller vehicle unless there is an actual hazard and then call for more.

[Atv300 69]

Respectfully,

Maybe you should re-read the half dozen or so post prior to yours. CO calls ARE NOT service calls. As BNechis stated, they are potentially lethal environments that could require the activation of the 2in-2out OSHA Standard for IDLH environments.

Of course, common sense dictates that multiple repeat alarms to the same activated head, with no readings, might make a supervisor re-think the amount of resources responding, and downgrade the subsequent alarms while awaiting alarm system service.

I am not trying to down play the seriousness but we're smart people usually that If you go to a house that actual has readings you should be able to back out and call the proper resources. Some places we have in the sticks smaller is better. I agree that the utility should have 4 packs on it but that's a cost vs resource they might not have either. So why not be proactive save where you can.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our FD policy dictates an engine respond to CO alarms without signs or symptoms, those calls with signs and symptoms get an ambulance added. Similar to other's here, our first due engine/squad carries all the same ventilation equipment as out truck company and additionally carries 4 gas meters as well as the single gas CO meters carried on first due apparatus and ambulances. Our personnel wear SCBA on all CO alarms, any reading of 9 ppm or greater is considered abnormal, at 35 ppm we're required to be on air. We routinely utilize our electric fan to PPV and clear conditions and only in significant cases use the gas powered blowers as they create and introduce CO. We do not allow re-occupancy until the readings go back below 9 ppm.

[wraftery 1,275]

Not my quote, but I like it:

"A little CO inhalation isn't a bad thing. It helps me get back to sleep after those middle-of-the-night runs."

[Bnechis 3,961]

any reading of 9 ppm or greater is considered abnormal, at 35 ppm we're required to be on air. We do not allow re-occupancy until the readings go back below 9 ppm.

35ppm is very conservative to be on air. cosidering that the short term exposure level (STEL) is 200. If you do not let them reoccupy till its below 9 how do you deal with any industrial facility that the law allows them to have workers at 50ppm (current OSHA limit) 8 hours per day?

[Bnechis 3,961]

We were are customer based business why not make cuts where you can to allow for improvements in other areas fuel usage is a good area to start. The average engine gets any where from ill say realistically 4 to 6 miles per gallon could be more or less depending on the truck. I would say a utility vehicle could get anywhere from 10 to 16 miles per gallon do the math on savings per call that can be handled by the smaller vehicle unless there is an actual hazard and then call for more.

We have a lot of politicians that think this way. Why send 2 engines and 2 ladders to a fire call, when most of the time its not a "real" fire. Why not just send 1 guy in a car and save the fuel, if it is a real fire he can just call for the rest of the trucks. On the same note, we do not really need a fire dept. just the 1 guy, we can save lots of money, he can handle it and if its bigger than that oh well, they have insurance.

[Atv300 69]

We have a lot of politicians that think this way. Why send 2 engines and 2 ladders to a fire call, when most of the time its not a "real" fire. Why not just send 1 guy in a car and save the fuel, if it is a real fire he can just call for the rest of the trucks. On the same note, we do not really need a fire dept. just the 1 guy, we can save lots of money, he can handle it and if its bigger than that oh well, they have insurance.

I do know what your saying and I agree its a double edge sword one of those damed if you do damed if you don't.

[Sailr322 88]

CO w/ No Symptoms - 1 Engine & Rescue (Non-Emergency response)

CO w/ Symptoms - 1 Engine, Truck, Rescue, EMS (Emergency response)

All three Engines, the Truck and Rescue have CO meters & fans.

This may be a stupid question, but if it comes in just as a CO alarm from the alarm company, therefor you don't know if their are symptoms or not, I would venture to guess that you respond emergency even if it is with just 1 Engine and Rescue and then if symptoms are found the rest come, rather then sending the single engine and rescue non emergency?

[antiquefirelt 994]

35ppm is very conservative to be on air. cosidering that the short term exposure level (STEL) is 200. If you do not let them reoccupy till its below 9 how do you deal with any industrial facility that the law allows them to have workers at 50ppm (current OSHA limit) 8 hours per day?

Good points. Our SOG was taken from elsewhere and adapted to fit our department. The 35 ppm threshold is to ensure members are masked up before entering a space with concerning levels. Mask use may be discontinued once all spaces are found to have levels closer to the OSHA 8 hrs level. Given the number of CO runs we have, this conservative approach doesn't (or has yet to) hamper us.

As for industrial or other spaces where other figures are used, we've not had any. We have but a few "large" industrial plants (Fisher Snowplows, FMC Bioproducts, Back Cove Yachts) and mostly small marine related industry along our harbor. The smaller folks tend to be slightly ignorant/oblivious to any rules made by those sporting acronyms. The larger few tend to be the other end of the spectrum. As with so many businesses, those with a lot to lose, do everything they can to protect themselves.

Our officers are granted latitude enough to not forcibly stick to any guideline. So when standard work practices such as you've noted allow for these conditions, I'd anticipate a common sense course of action. Like any guideline the numbers and actions must be evaluated given the total picture. If any member varies from the guidelines and is called into question they are first asked if they know the SOG, as only when they know them may shall they vary for cause. But again, when it comes to CO, we haven't had any issues with our SOG as long as I can remember.

Edited September 11, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[wraftery 1,275]

Our officers are granted latitude enough to not forcibly stick to any guideline. So when standard work practices such as you've noted allow for these conditions, I'd anticipate a common sense course of action. Like any guideline the numbers and actions must be evaluated given the total picture. If any member varies from the guidelines and is called into question they are first asked if they know the SOG, as only when they know them may shall they vary for cause. But again, when it comes to CO, we haven't had any issues with our SOG as long as I can remember.

Right on the money! They are GUIDElines,not the Ten Commandments. They are STANDARD operating procedures, and intended for the standard incident. We have to be able to stray from these documents when necessary. Yes, you are going to have to explain your actions for straying, and you can't let the "I'm not going against SOP's" attitude get in the way of your better judgement.

Many years ago there were two armies at war with other. One army allowed their officers to stray from the plan of need be, without the permission of a superior officer, when communications were down or for other possible reasons.

The other army forbade their officers from doing anything without getting permission from a superior.

Army #2 were the Nazis and they lost the war.

[LTFIREPRG 154]

A couple of key points:

· There is no such thing as a routine call.

· Complacency kills.

· Train like your fight – fight like you train.

CO can be an intermitting problem; it can be generated each time an improperly functioning or vented furnace, water heater or appliance starts up or runs. Just because your meter is not showing any CO upon your arrival, don’t assume it is another false alarm, especially if it is for a prior alarm location. You either have a CO problem or a faulty detector. Take the time to perform a complete investigation, fire up each and every fuel burning appliance and all sources of CO and check with a properly calibrated meter.

And on a side note, if you are looking to save fuel, stop riding around in the apparatus for hours on end and calling it driver training. NOTE: This is my opinion and is based on my 36+ years in the fire service! Not looking for a debate, if the shoe fits were it.

[wraftery 1,275]

A couple of key points:

· There is no such thing as a routine call.

· Complacency kills.

· Train like your fight – fight like you train.

CO can be an intermitting problem; it can be generated each time an improperly functioning or vented furnace, water heater or appliance starts up or runs. Just because your meter is not showing any CO upon your arrival, don’t assume it is another false alarm, especially if it is for a prior alarm location. You either have a CO problem or a faulty detector. Take the time to perform a complete investigation, fire up each and every fuel burning appliance and all sources of CO and check with a properly calibrated meter.

And on a side note, if you are looking to save fuel, stop riding around in the apparatus for hours on end and calling it driver training. NOTE: This is my opinion and is based on my 36+ years in the fire service! Not looking for a debate, if the shoe fits were it.

Right, Paul. The only way to tell if the CO alarm is real or not is through atmospheric testing. To do so, you may have to try and recreate the conditions that caused alarm activation. Talk to the homeowner. Was the family cooking, drying clothes, did they have the heating system on.?

What windows were open or closed? Did fire personnel open windows to vent? Then put the building back to the way it was just before alarm activation was. Give it a little time to build up the CO if any is present. Then use your meter starting from the most likely culprit

[Bnechis 3,961]

Right, Paul. The only way to tell if the CO alarm is real or not is through atmospheric testing. To do so, you may have to try and recreate the conditions that caused alarm activation. Talk to the homeowner. Was the family cooking, drying clothes, did they have the heating system on.?

What windows were open or closed? Did fire personnel open windows to vent? Then put the building back to the way it was just before alarm activation was. Give it a little time to build up the CO if any is present. Then use your meter starting from the most likely culprit

Great points.

Here is a scenario I have come across a few times: CO levels high enough to set of alarms on the 2nd floor of single family residential. Structures are victorian or queen ann type 75+ years old. Levels come and go with higher levels in 1 or 2 of the 3 of 4 bedrooms. Levels also in the closets.

No fuel appliances on the 2nd floor. What is the source?

[ryeyak 0]

It is not the FD's job to be an appliance tech. I do not agree with the idea of testing people's appliances. Our job is to stop the hazard, and if it does not exist at that time, we can shut the appliances and refer them to a specialist. More and more we are tinkering with peoples alarm systems and doing other things we have no business doing.

[x129K 1,393]

Great points.

Here is a scenario I have come across a few times: CO levels high enough to set of alarms on the 2nd floor of single family residential. Structures are victorian or queen ann type 75+ years old. Levels come and go with higher levels in 1 or 2 of the 3 of 4 bedrooms. Levels also in the closets.

No fuel appliances on the 2nd floor. What is the source?

Furnace?

CO spread via cast iron grates in floor for heat dispersion or wide hardwood floor planks seperated over the years?

[x129K 1,393]

Actually, since it wont let me edit;

Furnace in basement, Co travels in the outside wall void of the balloon construction, up, then disperses on the upper floors?

Really reaching here....and quite interested.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Furnace? CO spread via cast iron grates in floor for heat dispersion or wide hardwood floor planks seperated over the years?

Furnace in basement, Co travels in the outside wall void of the balloon construction, up, then disperses on the upper floors? Really reaching here....and quite interested.

Both good answers, but no.

Hint: the closets.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is not the FD's job to be an appliance tech. I do not agree with the idea of testing people's appliances. Our job is to stop the hazard, and if it does not exist at that time, we can shut the appliances and refer them to a specialist.

He was not suggesting we be appliance techs. If the CO source is not clear and you do not test the appliances how do you stop the hazard (that you can not find)? Do you shut down every appliance since you do not know which one is the source? And I have seen more than 1 appliance is as fault.

Finally how complicated is it to test appliances?

Furnace....turn up thermostate

Water Heater....turn on the hot water tap

Stove...turn it on

We are not looking for what is wrong with the appliance just if it is the source. If you turned on the hot water and the hot water heater is now found to be the source, we turn it off, tag it and have them call for service.

[38ff 250]

Old laundry chutes?

[x129K 1,393]

Both good answers, but no.

Hint: the closets.

Pipe chases.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Old laundry chutes?

Pipe chases.

Both good answers, but nope.

This is why understanding building construction is so critical to ff's. What is between the closets of 2 bedrooms in a queen ann or victorian home?

[LTFIREPRG 154]

Chimney

[Bnechis 3,961]

Chimney

You win a cookie (D.Rickles)

very common in these type of homes if the chimney is not on an outside wall, one side is the closet for one bedroom and the other side for a 2nd bedroom. When you check the basement, you find a furnace and or hot water heater but no CO readings. You check the bed rooms and no sources, but CO levels. And they are intermitant.

Turn up the heat AND the hot water....you will get readings. Both applances in concert may produce enough to work through the old morter. I have had a couple of these that we kept going back to, because one device did not do it.

Note: Both "APPLIANCES" are working fine so it is not the jop of the appliance tech to fix it. People are getting a toxic gas in the bedrooms and we took an oath to protect them.

[Atv300 69]

It is not the FD's job to be an appliance tech. I do not agree with the idea of testing people's appliances. Our job is to stop the hazard, and if it does not exist at that time, we can shut the appliances and refer them to a specialist. More and more we are tinkering with peoples alarm systems and doing other things we have no business doing.

Your right we are not techs but their is no reason we can't try and re create the problem to narrow down the area of the problem. For example we went to a mobile home that had propane dryer, oven water heater, and range top plus a kerosene forced air furnace. First co call dead battery per are sog checked the house ran the appliances individually to see if there would be an issue nothing advised home owner to replace batteries re enforced the hazard of co and that she did the right thing by calling and to call if any time the alarm goes off no matter what.

A few weeks later I hear the address to out again for co again so again check the house this time get a low reading as in most of the time we run co calls one member or the officer stays and interviews the owner to see what they were doing prior to the issue. She said she was drying clothes checked all appliances again found the dryer was most likely the culprit shut down the appliance advised homeowner they needed a tech to come and find the problem after ventilation cleared the scene.

A few weeks maybe a month go by call goes out again for same address co again so back through the routine checking appliances including the new dryer this time found the range pumping out co from the pilot shut down the propane again and ventilated. During talking to the resident we learned her gas company came hooked up the dryer and turned on the gas and done with never checking any of the other appliances. I thought this odd practice so I talked to a propane tech from the company I work for about the situation. Interesting enough he said most company's the techs are supposed to check appliances and for leaks any time the propane is shut down since issues can arises with pilots going out of adjusting ect.

The point I am making is complacent behavior is not just localized to the fire service and is dangerous either way. With the good education and re enforcement of good actions the lady new to call instead of chocking it up to a bad detector which she admitted to thinking about before calling the second time.

[wraftery 1,275]

Bird's nest, squirrels, ivy growth will also constrict the chimney and give CO readings.

A side note on chimneys:

Older houses had chimneys without a tile flu. Combine this with deteriorating mortar and joists placed in the masonry too close to the flu and fire in the fireplace equals fire in the walls and ceiling. Pull the ceilings and hit it quick, when you get this kind of fire it's probably "rippin'.

Don't forget that some older houses had chimneys with lime mortar. The main chimney has been repaired and is operational, but use was discontinued in the second chimney because of the deterioration of the mortar. But this discontinuation may have been done by a previous owner. Now, the present owner wants a fire in that "other"fireplace.

[16fire5 693]

Our FD policy dictates an engine respond to CO alarms without signs or symptoms, those calls with signs and symptoms get an ambulance added. Similar to other's here, our first due engine/squad carries all the same ventilation equipment as out truck company and additionally carries 4 gas meters as well as the single gas CO meters carried on first due apparatus and ambulances. Our personnel wear SCBA on all CO alarms, any reading of 9 ppm or greater is considered abnormal, at 35 ppm we're required to be on air. We routinely utilize our electric fan to PPV and clear conditions and only in significant cases use the gas powered blowers as they create and introduce CO. We do not allow re-occupancy until the readings go back below 9 ppm.

I think this is a good SOP and would work well for most departments. The 35 is a good number to go on air if you are encountering it by the door. From my experience when I get 35 at the door it will be above 100 somewhere inside. I would also add that I never really like to rely on 1 meter. We wear ours all the time and even the ones we have now have a tendency to get saturated at times because we wear them into fires. I feel much more comfortable giving the all clear to the occupants when it's confirmed with two independent meters. I also like to make sure I get someone to the heating plant. Many times just viewing it can let you know what happened.

Here's a story of a run I had a few months ago. 3 AM run for CO detector activated. More than 1 detector activated. Readings in the teens. Rain and damp outside. Occupants have no symptoms but are drunk. They say the alarms went off earlier in the day (more than 12 hours ago) and the landlord changed the batteries. Some of my guys think it is the rig parked outside so we move it. With doors opening and closing readings go down to single digits but the voice in my head says something is not kosher. So I make sure the OV gets into the basement to see the furnace even though it requires him to force the door. And he finds the flue detached from the furnace. Would it have killed anybody? Probably not but would we have done our job if we left? Not in my opinion. Be thorough resist the pressure from the troops to go back to bed quick. Many officers at one time or another have gone back to the firehouse and laid in bed wondering if they did everything they should have. I have and it's not a good feeling so I learned from it.

[BFD1054 1,552]

I think this is a good SOP and would work well for most departments. The 35 is a good number to go on air if you are encountering it by the door. From my experience when I get 35 at the door it will be above 100 somewhere inside. I would also add that I never really like to rely on 1 meter. We wear ours all the time and even the ones we have now have a tendency to get saturated at times because we wear them into fires. I feel much more comfortable giving the all clear to the occupants when it's confirmed with two independent meters. I also like to make sure I get someone to the heating plant. Many times just viewing it can let you know what happened.

Here's a story of a run I had a few months ago. 3 AM run for CO detector activated. More than 1 detector activated. Readings in the teens. Rain and damp outside. Occupants have no symptoms but are drunk. They say the alarms went off earlier in the day (more than 12 hours ago) and the landlord changed the batteries. Some of my guys think it is the rig parked outside so we move it. With doors opening and closing readings go down to single digits but the voice in my head says something is not kosher. So I make sure the OV gets into the basement to see the furnace even though it requires him to force the door. And he finds the flue detached from the furnace. Would it have killed anybody? Probably not but would we have done our job if we left? Not in my opinion. Be thorough resist the pressure from the troops to go back to bed quick. Many officers at one time or another have gone back to the firehouse and laid in bed wondering if they did everything they should have. I have and it's not a good feeling so I learned from it.

Very well said Captain and great points sir.

I think all too often, we in the fire service are to quick to want to "take up," especially at 3 or 4 in the morning. Even worse if its a "repeat offender."

As Captain Nechis stated, we are sworn to protect the people we serve. If you're at a call, you're already there, whats another 5-10 minutes to make sure all is well?

Stay safe

[Remember585 815]

I took this class once on CO incidents with this guy.... what's his name... Barry something...

After doing so, I took my entire approach to these calls (way too careless) and became a bit more attentive. In addition, we formulated a CO Response Checklist which is expected to be used at every CO Incident. It lays out what needs to be checked in the building, the areas of the building to check, and what we did.

When we get on scene and confirm it's not a battery issue only, we conduct an investigation that takes up to 20-30 minutes. This includes running the hot water heater, the furnace and if need be, the kitchen appliances. We also will provide a battery if that's the reason the alarm triggered (and we remember to replenish them after the last run).

It may seem like a mundane call (no cool lights & sirens ride) but it proves to be an excellent tool for us to review building size up, pre-plan the building and give junior guys a chance to hold the reins. And... it's not a bad customer service gig.

There is one cause for CO alarm activation we've seen more than once that one overlooks. The landscapers running mowers/blowers and the guys power washing a house. We've had more than one incident of elevated CO due to this, especially when windows are left open. (Not to mention the mess from the power wash too).

I like to think of every call as an unscheduled drill...