Somers CO Incident Response

[Skindependent 15]

Hello Members of the media (I know you read this)....why not do some investigative journalism into the very serious, life threatening issue of fire department and EMS departments in Westchester County vis-a-vis, oftentimes ridiculously long response times, inadequately trained responders, duplication of resources, lack of transparency in regard to finances and frankly many other issues within lots of departments. This is serious stuff!

Disclaimer- , I must very clearly state....this is not an attack on volunteer Firefighters, EMS workers or their departments! There are many dedicated and knowledgeable volunteer members of emergency services in this region. However, the SYSTEM is BROKEN!

Positive change very rarely comes from inside of an organization, but rather through blunt force trauma from the outside. Well media, how about a little blunt force trauma in regard to this issue? Personally, my own department has been going through some blunt force trauma from certain segments of the media lately, and I'm ok with that- there's nothing to hide, no organization is perfect, transparency and acceptance of change are good things....Why are volunteer organizations who equally hold the fate of people's lives and property (and taxes) in their hands getting a pass from the media?

In closing, I will pre-emptively state that I will not be engaging in a back and forth bicker on this topic, and yes, I do anticipate attempts at deflecting from the issue at hand by attacking myself personally as well as my own department. So, please don't take my non-responsiveness as acquiesence, agreement, or defeat. I'm just too busy to bother with responding to all of it. This post is really just for the media- maybe someday someone in the media in this area will wake up and realize how honest reporting in regard to this crisis would save lives, property and dollars. I'm not optimistic though, because I guess it's just easier to attack salaries, benefits, and pensions, and ignore an almost completely broken system right next door.

stay safe and qtip brothers and sisters!

Yes, please launch a media attack on the volunteer service. (sarcasm) You, sir, are a known enemy of us volunteers. Don't make like we haven't heard of your exploits trying to get volunteers shut out of the service. Deal with your own problems before you attack us. Got a problem with the way things are done? Volunteer and help us out. I'm not saying we are perfect, but I'll be damned if you think you can spread your volunteer hating rhetoric without opposition.

Have a nice day :-)

[newsbuff 286]

Yes, please launch a media attack on the volunteer service. (sarcasm) You, sir, are a known enemy of us volunteers. Don't make like we haven't heard of your exploits trying to get volunteers shut out of the service. Deal with your own problems before you attack us. Got a problem with the way things are done? Volunteer and help us out. I'm not saying we are perfect, but I'll be damned if you think you can spread your volunteer hating rhetoric without opposition.

Have a nice day :-)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that your the kind of person that hears about the YFD and the union getting totally blasted by the media, and laughs and says, "Serves them right!" The media has every right to know that there is a PROBLEM with the FIRE SERVICE in Westchester, both CAREER and VOLUNTEER. To completely out someone because they are bringing light to a problem, that has been majorly overlooked, because nobody wants to ADMIT that there is an issue, is asinine. You can think whatever you want of certain people, but anyone could have written was JFLYNN wrote, and I bet dollars to doughnuts that you would bash them too.

The first step to solving a problem is.........

Edited September 7, 2012 by newsbuff

[Skindependent 15]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that your the kind of person that hears about the YFD and the union getting totally blasted by the media, and laughs and says, "Serves them right!" The media has every right to know that there is a PROBLEM with the FIRE SERVICE in Westchester, both CAREER and VOLUNTEER. To completely out someone because they are bringing light to a problem, that has been majorly overlooked, because nobody wants to ADMIT that there is an issue, is asinine. You can think whatever you want of certain people, but anyone could have written was JFLYNN wrote, and I bet dollars to doughnuts that you would bash them too.

The first step to solving a problem is.........

Show up to the dock late and you missed the boat, my friend. I'm not bashing the career guys (as a whole), nor would I ever. The moral of my story is "people who live in glass houses". I know our side of things has its issues, and I'm doing my best from the inside to fix them. I take care of my own problems before I say something about someone else's. And if I am on a sinking ship (gotta love the nautical references here), I don't try to drag down others with me. However, I heard about this man in particular within weeks of first joining the service. In my years in, his name continually comes up in stories about his (mis)exploits trying to shut out volunteers. So perhaps I harbor a vendetta. That being said, the media has the right to pound salt. All they do is blow things out of proportion and make changes that much more difficult. And yes, I would bash anyone personally who tries to throw us as a volunteer organization, to the wolves.

PS: "Going out on a limb" is fancy speak for ASSume.

[SSweet88MonteSS 0]

So far, I've read 33 posts of nothing but speculation surrounding the incident. So rather than fanning this possible garbage can fire into a structure fire of a magnitute that warrants investigative journalism, why don't we go to the source first? That said, is there anyone from Somers on the air here who can shed some actual light onto the subject?

[Atv300 69]

Just saying glad everyone can get along here. This forum would better serve for information on fixing staffing issues paid and volly instead of running either into the ground *same team, same agenda at the end of the day*.

[Ladder44 73]

Hello Members of the media (I know you read this)....why not do some investigative journalism into the very serious, life threatening issue of fire department and EMS departments in Westchester County vis-a-vis, oftentimes ridiculously long response times, inadequately trained responders, duplication of resources, lack of transparency in regard to finances and frankly many other issues within lots of departments. This is serious stuff!

Disclaimer- , I must very clearly state....this is not an attack on volunteer Firefighters, EMS workers or their departments! There are many dedicated and knowledgeable volunteer members of emergency services in this region. However, the SYSTEM is BROKEN!

Positive change very rarely comes from inside of an organization, but rather through blunt force trauma from the outside. Well media, how about a little blunt force trauma in regard to this issue? Personally, my own department has been going through some blunt force trauma from certain segments of the media lately, and I'm ok with that- there's nothing to hide, no organization is perfect, transparency and acceptance of change are good things....Why are volunteer organizations who equally hold the fate of people's lives and property (and taxes) in their hands getting a pass from the media?

In closing, I will pre-emptively state that I will not be engaging in a back and forth bicker on this topic, and yes, I do anticipate attempts at deflecting from the issue at hand by attacking myself personally as well as my own department. So, please don't take my non-responsiveness as acquiesence, agreement, or defeat. I'm just too busy to bother with responding to all of it. This post is really just for the media- maybe someday someone in the media in this area will wake up and realize how honest reporting in regard to this crisis would save lives, property and dollars. I'm not optimistic though, because I guess it's just easier to attack salaries, benefits, and pensions, and ignore an almost completely broken system right next door.

stay safe and qtip brothers and sisters!

Call Charlie Leduff

[efdcapt115 1,511]

So far, I've read 33 posts of nothing but speculation surrounding the incident. So rather than fanning this possible garbage can fire into a structure fire of a magnitute that warrants investigative journalism, why don't we go to the source first? That said, is there anyone from Somers on the air here who can shed some actual light onto the subject?

That's a great idea to hear from a Somers member.

However, I didn't post about this particular incident, I was only speaking in general terms about CO calls.

[JFLYNN 681]

]

Show up to the dock late and you missed the boat, my friend. I'm not bashing the career guys (as a whole), nor would I ever. The moral of my story is "people who live in glass houses". I know our side of things has its issues, and I'm doing my best from the inside to fix them. I take care of my own problems before I say something about someone else's. And if I am on a sinking ship (gotta love the nautical references here), I don't try to drag down others with me. However, I heard about this man in particular within weeks of first joining the service. In my years in, his name continually comes up in stories about his (mis)exploits trying to shut out volunteers. So perhaps I harbor a vendetta. That being said, the media has the right to pound salt. All they do is blow things out of proportion and make changes that much more difficult. And yes, I would bash anyone personally who tries to throw us as a volunteer organization, to the wolves.

PS: "Going out on a limb" is fancy speak for ASSume.

Yes, please launch a media attack on the volunteer service. (sarcasm) You, sir, are a known enemy of us volunteers. Don't make like we haven't heard of your exploits trying to get volunteers shut out of the service. Deal with your own problems before you attack us. Got a problem with the way things are done? Volunteer and help us out. I'm not saying we are perfect, but I'll be damned if you think you can spread your volunteer hating rhetoric without opposition.

Have a nice day :-)

To the many fair minded members of the volunteer fire service, please note that my name is clearly indicated on all of my posts, unlike this poster. Also, I would challenge anyone to show any evidence of me being a "known enemy of us volunteers", or of spreading "volunteer hating rhetoric"...these are really serious allegations, words like "hate" f and "enemy" for Pete's sake, should not be thrown around so casually. Members of the fire service, both career and volunteer have sacrificed much, even their own lives. How cowardly and mean spirited it is to make such slanderous statements from behind the anonymity of your keyboard.

I would also ask this poster, if I thought there was any chance of receiving an honest answer, what he means specifically by "Deal with your own problems before you attack us."

I wonder if he's just having a really bad day and this was an impulsive error in judgement, or if he truly is such a mean spirited, character lacking individual?

[JFLYNN 681]

Show up to the dock late and you missed the boat, my friend. I'm not bashing the career guys (as a whole), nor would I ever. The moral of my story is "people who live in glass houses". I know our side of things has its issues, and I'm doing my best from the inside to fix them. I take care of my own problems before I say something about someone else's. And if I am on a sinking ship (gotta love the nautical references here), I don't try to drag down others with me. However, I heard about this man in particular within weeks of first joining the service. In my years in, his name continually comes up in stories about his (mis)exploits trying to shut out volunteers. So perhaps I harbor a vendetta. That being said, the media has the right to pound salt. All they do is blow things out of proportion and make changes that much more difficult. And yes, I would bash anyone personally who tries to throw us as a volunteer organization, to the wolves.

PS: "Going out on a limb" is fancy speak for ASSume.

I challenge you to explain with specificity what you mean by "glass houses". It would also display a measure of integrity for you to provide your name, or at least a bit of background as to your fire service experience, and thus your credibilitry, or lack thereof.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This forum would better serve for information on fixing staffing issues paid and volly instead of running either into the ground *same team, same agenda at the end of the day*.

One thing I have learned here is that you can not fix the staffing issues if you believe that fire response with 1, 2, 3 members per rig or multiple tones then coverage with mutual aid is acceptable and does not violate laws, standards or the oath many firefighters took that they would protect the public.

[Atv300 69]

You know what I learned the form is not what it used to be. But that's the fire service in general anymore kick your neighbor when there down instead of offering a solution. Just saying if a department has over 3 engine's and a truck in a 20 square mile area then the next town has the same if they consolidated cut back on equipment and used the found funds maybe to staff paid if need be supplemented by vollys and MA maybe it could be better. Not saying this will work in this particular case but it bothers me that in 50 square miles of coverage district in a rural situation no hydrants cutting back is the name of the game *sharing resources* use your neighbors without abusing them maybe you could almost work as a county wide department without actually being one. Pride is what everyone needs to get over yet still have enough of it to do your job for the right reason.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

To the many fair minded members of the volunteer fire service, please note that my name is clearly indicated on all of my posts, unlike this poster. Also, I would challenge anyone to show any evidence of me being a "known enemy of us volunteers", or of spreading "volunteer hating rhetoric"...these are really serious allegations, words like "hate" f and "enemy" for Pete's sake, should not be thrown around so casually. Members of the fire service, both career and volunteer have sacrificed much, even their own lives. How cowardly and mean spirited it is to make such slanderous statements from behind the anonymity of your keyboard.

I would also ask this poster, if I thought there was any chance of receiving an honest answer, what he means specifically by "Deal with your own problems before you attack us."

I wonder if he's just having a really bad day and this was an impulsive error in judgement, or if he truly is such a mean spirited, character lacking individual?

I'll take your challenge Chief Flynn.

I do not think you are a friend of the volunteer fire service. Nor do I think you truly believe in the "Brotherhood" that is suppose to exsist between all firefighters in this country and around the world for that matter. I'm sure that when you meet a firefighter and find out he is a volunteer you think of him on a different level.

What makes me think this is true was due to a series of posts you made a few years back.... where you said something to the effect of "volunteer firefighters are not the same as career firefighters, save all the that talk for your wives and girlfreinds who will believe it" Again not exact but something along those lines.

There may be some differences between the 2, but when firefighters respond to a working fire and the crews are stretching lines, throwing ladders making the push with the line to put the fire out WE ARE THE SAME. DOING THE SAME JOB at that point. The meat and potatoes of a firefighters job is the same volunteer or career. You still refused to hear that and made posts against anyone trying to suggest this was the case.

Those posts were filled with an underlying hate and despise for the volunteer fire service.

Maybe you were having a really bad day and those post were an impulsive error in judgement. I really hope so.

Edited September 8, 2012 by spin_the_wheel

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I don't think the Chief hates anybody "spin the wheel." TRUE firefighters are not haters. We respond and work to help people no matter their color, creed, whatever.

Maybe, just maybe there is a genuine concern that fire/emergency protection and response is sorely lacking in areas of Westchester County, and it is being pointed out by many more than just the person you called out.

We all know it. It's not just in volunteer protected areas. Many career/combo departments are not getting the manpower out adequately.

Thus the call for consolidation which is largely ignored, something the chief and others here have been passionately trying to bring to the attention of the public, the media, the politicians for a very long time.

Now you're out on the island, and we all know the volunteer departments out there are chock full of career firefighters from......other places nearby.

Whole different animal.

Walk a mile in the shoes of the firefighters in Westchester, who regardless of type of department are still responding daily without adequate staffing, then come back and see how you think about these issues at hand.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

EFDCapt115...you are right I should not have used the word hate.

I am not saying staffing issues are not a problem. Consolidation and automatic mutual aid is the answer for many departments in this day and age. I agree with all this.

As far as "calling out", I am sorry for derailing this topic. I was only replying with my feelings, towards a series of posts made awhile back, by the individual who offered up a "challenge" to anyone who felt he was not a friend of the volunteer fire service.

Those are my feelings. I feel he has made many many posts in the past that are truly "mean spirited", taking a dig whenever he can besides trying to just make a point. And I know all about the qtip crap, he issued the "challenge". I accepted. We will agree to disagree in the end I'm sure.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Ive been a member of this site for a long time now. In the past, there have been posts made by Chief Flynn that have gotten under my skin.

However and maybe its because ive grown up a bit, ive come to realize that he has opinions and is certainly entitled to them as is anyone else.

Chief Flynn has worked his way up the ladder of a very busy, pro-active and versatile career fire department. For that, i have nothing but respect for the man, as he has certainly earned it.

Chief Flynn is obviously a very intelligent man who has so much fire service knowledge and experience to share. For that, i have always enjoyed reading his posts as they are well thought out and written.

Maybe Chief Flynn indeed dislikes volunteer firefighters or the volunteer fire service as a whole, but you know what...who cares? Again, he is entitled to his opinions. Personally, i could care less who likes who and who doesn't.

Many of his posts and comments aimed at the volunteer fire service have merit. I guess maybe for some people the truth hurts.

Personally, i enjoy being a volunteer firefighter and helping the community (sorry if that sounds cliche). I have always tried to be the best firefighter i can be by taking as many courses as possible, training as much as possible and treating every day as a learning experience.

People need to worry about themselves and how they can be a better person, firefighter, etc and improve themselves and their agencies.

That said, stay safe and oh yeah, QTIP.

Now lets get back to the original topic at hand please.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Nice post Mike. Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion as you aptly stated.

[JFLYNN 681]

I'll take your challenge Chief Flynn.

I do not think you are a friend of the volunteer fire service. Nor do I think you truly believe in the "Brotherhood" that is suppose to exsist between all firefighters in this country and around the world for that matter. I'm sure that when you meet a firefighter and find out he is a volunteer you think of him on a different level.

What makes me think this is true was due to a series of posts you made a few years back.... where you said something to the effect of "volunteer firefighters are not the same as career firefighters, save all the that talk for your wives and girlfreinds who will believe it" Again not exact but something along those lines.

There may be some differences between the 2, but when firefighters respond to a working fire and the crews are stretching lines, throwing ladders making the push with the line to put the fire out WE ARE THE SAME. DOING THE SAME JOB at that point. The meat and potatoes of a firefighters job is the same volunteer or career. You still refused to hear that and made posts against anyone trying to suggest this was the case.

Those posts were filled with an underlying hate and despise for the volunteer fire service.

Maybe you were having a really bad day and those post were an impulsive error in judgement. I really hope so.

How is that you think this is a response to my challenge? My challenge was for the other poster to explain with specificity what he meant by "glass houses".

It is such a shame that again, another poster on this site has, from behind the anonymity of his keyboard, made unsubstantiated allegations using such words as "hate" and "despise"...we have so many serious problems in this world, and everyone on this website, career, volunteer, or other has so much more in common than we do differences. There is, unfortunately, so much real hate, violence and unfairness in this world, and to throw these words around so casually is really a damn shame to me. Why can't we just be big boys and respect differences of opinion without being so thin skinned or making personal attacks? I have used sarcasm on this site at times, and generally this was done in response to ludicrous misinformation on a subject near and dear to my heart, and / or a personal attack on my self or my department. However, in all my years interacting with members of the volunteer Fire and EMS service, both on this site, and in person, I have never been rude, disrespectful, or dishonest. In fact, I have been very supportive of any volunteers who have come to me for help or advice on many occasions. On a related note, when valid criticism of my own department or career departments in general is posted, I never take it personally, or try to make excuses or deny the truth.

However, here in Westchester County we have many serious issues with Fire and EMS services, and the majority of these issues (not all) are from the volunteer side. This is not personal, it is business. Very important, life or death business! Duplication of resources, ridiculous selection, training, promotion and retention standards, lack of transparency, horrible inadequate response standards, etc, etc. Many of these issues could be fairly easily solved, and therefore more death, pain and suffering could be avoided, if egos could be put aside, and valid criticisms could be accepted.

,

Adequate minimum training standards, consolidation and regionalization, transparency in regard to finances, resources, levels of training and competency need to happen. It is a complete failure of leadership and selfish egomaniacs who are more worried about their little fiefdoms than the public good who are standing in the way of this. My hope is that if I and others keep pointing out these serious issues, the many good, intelligent, dedicated and caring individuals in the volunteer sector will force this change down the throats of the entrenched "leaders" who have been holding progress back for so long.

My feelings are shared by so many, both career and volunteer- and just FYI, many of the career Firefighters who volunteers hold in such high regard actually feel exactly the same as I do- however they choose not to go public with their feelings because they want to make money by teaching you, selling you t shirts and other paraphanelia, receiving the many benefits of being volunteer Firefighters themselves, writing books and articles, setting themselves up for certain jobs in retirement, etc., etc., and they are not willing to suffer the personal attacks such as I have on here for expressing my feelings on this issue. It's actually hilarious to hear the criticisms of the volunteer fire service which are made in private by many career Firefighters who most volunteers proclaim to be their good friends and supporters

I realize I am making sense to a lot of you and many of you share my feelings. No matter how hard I try, the haters will always be out there. I accept and expect that. Thanks to all of you who have supported me on these issues. Together, over time, we will acccomplish much positive change in the service of those we are sworn to protect.

Edited September 8, 2012 by JFLYNN

[JFLYNN 681]

Ive been a member of this site for a long time now. In the past, there have been posts made by Chief Flynn that have gotten under my skin.

However and maybe its because ive grown up a bit, ive come to realize that he has opinions and is certainly entitled to them as is anyone else.

Chief Flynn has worked his way up the ladder of a very busy, pro-active and versatile career fire department. For that, i have nothing but respect for the man, as he has certainly earned it.

Chief Flynn is obviously a very intelligent man who has so much fire service knowledge and experience to share. For that, i have always enjoyed reading his posts as they are well thought out and written.

Maybe Chief Flynn indeed dislikes volunteer firefighters or the volunteer fire service as a whole, but you know what...who cares? Again, he is entitled to his opinions. Personally, i could care less who likes who and who doesn't.

Many of his posts and comments aimed at the volunteer fire service have merit. I guess maybe for some people the truth hurts.

Personally, i enjoy being a volunteer firefighter and helping the community (sorry if that sounds cliche). I have always tried to be the best firefighter i can be by taking as many courses as possible, training as much as possible and treating every day as a learning experience.

People need to worry about themselves and how they can be a better person, firefighter, etc and improve themselves and their agencies.

That said, stay safe and oh yeah, QTIP.

Now lets get back to the original topic at hand please.

Thank you.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Oh yeah, the CO call. Just curious if maybe some members would post up what their department protocols are for a CO call with symptoms. Do you send an engine or truck company or maybe both?

I could see the need for both on a CO call with symptoms, particularly with multiple victims . A CFR engine to care for victims in conjunction with EMS's lead, and a truck company to locate and eliminate the source and then vent. Of course a Fire Supervisor to coordinate.

Just trying to right the track of the thread is all.

Any responses would be interesting to read. Thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Oh yeah, the CO call. Just curious if maybe some members would post up what their department protocols are for a CO call with symptoms. Do you send an engine or truck company or maybe both?

Without symptoms: we send a single engine company

With symptoms: 2 engines, 2 ladders, 1 DC and 1 (or more ambulances based on number of potetial patients).

One must consider that if we find high levels of CO (IDLH), then 29CFR1910.134 or more commonly known as 2in / 2out must be followed, this the need for additional personnel. If CO levels are high and there are symptoms, it is not uncommon to find multiple victims and have to do a rapid search to ensure that no one is left in the space.

As was previously stated most of these calls (with no symptoms) are alarm system issues and not co issues and one company with proper training and meters can safely confirm this.

[wraftery 1,275]

Haven't been in Hartsdale for a few years, but it was much the same as NRFD. No symptoms gets 1 Eng with meters, With Symptoms gets a full box assignment and EMS.

Virginia Beach and Chesapeake are similar. to the above.

[wraftery 1,275]

Haven't been in Hartsdale for a few years, but it was much the same as NRFD. No symptoms gets 1 Eng with meters, With Symptoms gets a full box assignment and EMS.

Virginia Beach and Chesapeake are similar. to the above.

Also, FYI, Va Beach has a separate EMS Dept. Chesapeake FD runs the EMS System for the city EMT's are FF's

[Remember585 815]

Oh yeah, the CO call. Just curious if maybe some members would post up what their department protocols are for a CO call with symptoms. Do you send an engine or truck company or maybe both?

I could see the need for both on a CO call with symptoms, particularly with multiple victims . A CFR engine to care for victims in conjunction with EMS's lead, and a truck company to locate and eliminate the source and then vent. Of course a Fire Supervisor to coordinate.

Just trying to right the track of the thread is all.

Any responses would be interesting to read. Thanks.

CO w/ No Symptoms - 1 Engine & Rescue (Non-Emergency response)

CO w/ Symptoms - 1 Engine, Truck, Rescue, EMS (Emergency response)

All three Engines, the Truck and Rescue have CO meters & fans.

[16fire5 693]

Especially those departments who practice positive pressure ventilation (which I personally don't believe in for fire attack). These PPV fans are perfect for CO venting.

I like to totally separate the two with PPA meaning positive pressure attack which is using the fan prior to knock down. PPV is using the fans to clear the smoke. I'm not a PPA fan (Sorry the pun was to easy) and can even point to some NIOSH reports that show it was a contributing factor in a LODD. PPV on the other hand can be very useful. We routinely use it at fires in high rise multiple dwellings which are a very common occurrence in the City of New York. They have been very useful in keeping the attack stairway virtually smoke free. History has shown that many civilian fatalities in these buildings were from smoke inhalation in the stairways. Unfortunately the gas powered fans are not perfect because they themselves introduce CO into the building sometimes over 100 ppm. This is very acceptable during a working fire but not really when you are trying to merely remove CO. Plenty of experimentation going on to address the issue from exhaust hoses, catalytic converters, to newer more powerful electric fans.

We send an Engine and Truck for CO responses. When I have high readings I call for the chief and may transmit the box if I need more help.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I like to totally separate the two with PPA meaning positive pressure attack which is using the fan prior to knock down. PPV is using the fans to clear the smoke. I'm not a PPA fan (Sorry the pun was to easy) and can even point to some NIOSH reports that show it was a contributing factor in a LODD. PPV on the other hand can be very useful. We routinely use it at fires in high rise multiple dwellings which are a very common occurrence in the City of New York. They have been very useful in keeping the attack stairway virtually smoke free. History has shown that many civilian fatalities in these buildings were from smoke inhalation in the stairways. Unfortunately the gas powered fans are not perfect because they themselves introduce CO into the building sometimes over 100 ppm. This is very acceptable during a working fire but not really when you are trying to merely remove CO. Plenty of experimentation going on to address the issue from exhaust hoses, catalytic converters, to newer more powerful electric fans.

We send an Engine and Truck for CO responses. When I have high readings I call for the chief and may transmit the box if I need more help.

Thanks for "clearing" that up. LOL

Nice post Cap.

[x129K 1,393]

One must consider that if we find high levels of CO (IDLH), then 29CFR1910.134 or more commonly known as 2in / 2out must be followed.............

Interesting. I had a rather "heated" discussion in regards to this recently.

The other half was defending an SOP that dispatches a Utility/Brush Truck equipped with a CO meter and two airpaks to CO calls. Unfortunatly, the gray area is I can not recall, nor did I really ask, if that was for "without symptoms" or all COP calls, which IMO, is irrellevant, that assignment is inadequate.

[wraftery 1,275]

I, too am not a fan of PPA. They tell you "Don't push fire with a fog line because the fire will often go someplace you don't want." There is little difference between pushing it with fog or pushing it with fans.

Even Mittendorf, the self-appointed guru of PPA will tell you that.

While on the subject of Mittendorf, one of his statements is that before you use positive pressure, you must have complete control of the building's openings and ventilation paths. I never figured I ever had control of a building until the fire is out, thus, PPV. Even a one room fire in a single story residence can go terribly wrong if you didn't know about the hole in the wall of the fire room. When do you find that hole? After knockdown.

On another note, I don't consider pressurizing a stairway as either PPA or PPV. I consider it a tactical move and it concerns only the stairwell in question. Instead of more acronyms, why don't we just call it "pressurizing a stairway" even though we are using our PP's. That way nobody gets confused. This is an easy tactic to keep smoke out of the stairway for either evacuation or attack.

[16fire5 693]

On another note, I don't consider pressurizing a stairway as either PPA or PPV. I consider it a tactical move and it concerns only the stairwell in question. Instead of more acronyms, why don't we just call it "pressurizing a stairway" even though we are using our PP's. That way nobody gets confused. This is an easy tactic to keep smoke out of the stairway for either evacuation or attack.

I agree. It's a different animal and since it's almost always type I construction there is almost no threat of speading fire in void spaces. Additionally it is so tried and true many large commercial high rises have stairwell presurization systems.

[Atv300 69]

Interesting. I had a rather "heated" discussion in regards to this recently.

The other half was defending an SOP that dispatches a Utility/Brush Truck equipped with a CO meter and two airpaks to CO calls. Unfortunatly, the gray area is I can not recall, nor did I really ask, if that was for "without symptoms" or all COP calls, which IMO, is irrellevant, that assignment is inadequate.

But sending 2million dollar's of equipment to a service call is ok because it cost the tax payers more money in fuel then they make in a week for something that ninety percent of the time that can be handled by the brush truck two packs and EMS. And when there is an actual presence of co an engine is added to the assignment or truck which ever the department needs or has. Granted every area and department is different so that might not work for everyone.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

But sending 2million dollar's of equipment to a service call is ok because it cost the tax payers more money in fuel then they make in a week for something that ninety percent of the time that can be handled by the brush truck two packs and EMS. And when there is an actual presence of co an engine is added to the assignment or truck which ever the department needs or has. Granted every area and department is different so that might not work for everyone.

Respectfully,

Maybe you should re-read the half dozen or so post prior to yours. CO calls ARE NOT service calls. As BNechis stated, they are potentially lethal environments that could require the activation of the 2in-2out OSHA Standard for IDLH environments.

Of course, common sense dictates that multiple repeat alarms to the same activated head, with no readings, might make a supervisor re-think the amount of resources responding, and downgrade the subsequent alarms while awaiting alarm system service.