Somers CO Incident Response

[rayrider 94]

I saw in the incident alert that somers vfd couldnt get an engine out for a co run and had to rely on m/

a. Its a good thing the house wasnt on fire. Does this happen often?

[jack10562 414]

First off, don't necessarily believe everything you read posted here in an IA, as gospel.

There are rare times some departments might not get a rig able to roll to a call. It could be there was no qualified driver arriving to the station, or something as simple as the truck wouldn't start.

If you want to speculate, maybe it was the the eightieth time this same location came in, and everyone said screw it.

[DR104 141]

I saw in the incident alert that somers vfd couldnt get an engine out for a co run and had to rely on m/

a. Its a good thing the house wasnt on fire. Does this happen often?

This isn't the first time nor will it be the last time. Last month another dept couldnt get a engine out for a CO call, after 4 tones out( IThink) 60 had to go MA.

and for the house being on fire people come out of the wood work for them..

Edited September 6, 2012 by DR104

[DR104 141]

First off, don't necessarily believe everything you read posted here in an IA, as gospel.

There are rare times some departments might not get a rig able to roll to a call. It could be there was no qualified driver arriving to the station, or something as simple as the truck wouldn't start.

If you want to speculate, maybe it was the the eightieth time this same location came in, and everyone said screw it

.

You are going to tell me they dont have another rig in the house to take the call. Have you seen the firehouse in Westcherster county? they all have more then one rig in them.

For the screw it part, for anybody to think like that they should just quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(but make sure they do it after the free trip to lake george)

[x129K 1,393]

Yes. It happens often. Everywhere*, not just in Somers.

It is becoming a REAL problem and no volunteer department in the Hudson Valley is immune to it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There are rare times some departments might not get a rig able to roll to a call. It could be there was no qualified driver arriving to the station, or something as simple as the truck wouldn't start.

Then maybe they should develop a plan instead of toning out multiple times before going to mutual aid. How many rigs does SFD have? Call the next due unit if you have other rigs (not mutual aid)

If you want to speculate, maybe it was the the eightieth time this same location came in, and everyone said screw it.

1st - If they keep crying wolf, you need to have a plan to resolve it. just saying screw it is not a plan. Particularly with CO, since it can come and go and sometimes is very hard to find the source.

2nd - The call had a chief onsceen with readings and they still needed M/A to get 1 engine.

>>> Originally came in as an automatic CO Alarm. 2443 signed on and got o/s and reported readings at the door. An engine and the ambulance were requested, 80B2 responded, engine was not successful, Katonah FD was requested M/A 1 engine. Units remained on scene for 1 hour and a 1/2. <<<

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

Sounds like a normal day in westchester, no suprise here.

Edited September 6, 2012 by drgripsthrowawaytowel

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sounds like a normal day in westchester, no suprise here.

Shhhhhh. maybe the public wont notice and we can keep the hundreds of unmanned or undermanned rigs, because its clearly not about the public but about us.

[BigBuff 27]

(I researched a bit..) Somers operates with 5 Engines, 2 Ladders, 3 buses, 1 brush truck, and 3 rescues (one for scuba rescue) and a few utilities. Somers FD dispatch did 7 tones, and only got a chief and the paid ambulance (over the air). The other day, they had something like 10 calls (Fire/EMS) in 1 day and covered every one of them. This is uncommon for Somers, I have never heard of them failing to cover a FD call. (I am not listening at ALL times, obviously)

[BigBuff 27]

First off, don't necessarily believe everything you read posted here in an IA, as gospel.

There are rare times some departments might not get a rig able to roll to a call. It could be there was no qualified driver arriving to the station, or something as simple as the truck wouldn't start.

If you want to speculate, maybe it was the the eightieth time this same location came in, and everyone said screw it.

I personally have never heard the address come over the air, but I could be wrong. All the information I put on the IA is pretty much all true. (I see the Somers guys have viewed it, and i did not recieve a PM)

I am not sure about if the trucks arent starting or not, maybe a Somers person can fill us in..

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

Shhhhhh. maybe the public wont notice and we can keep the hundreds of unmanned or undermanned rigs, because its clearly not about the public but about us.

I present to you "Zen and the Art of the Fire Service: http://firehousezen.com/2012/08/18/tell-me-if-this-applies-to-you/

Maybe its time everyone reads this, from the first time offenders on a water condition, to those putting other firemans lives on the line by taking 20+ minutes to get a FASTeam out because their pride is too big.

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

(I researched a bit..) Somers operates with 5 Engines, 2 Ladders, 3 buses, 1 brush truck, and 3 rescues (one for scuba rescue) and a few utilities. Somers FD dispatch did 7 tones, and only got a chief and the paid ambulance (over the air). The other day, they had something like 10 calls (Fire/EMS) in 1 day and covered every one of them. This is uncommon for Somers, I have never heard of them failing to cover a FD call. (I am not listening at ALL times, obviously)

By fail to respond, do you mean getting a chief on the road, or gettin appropriately staffed apparatus responding?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

By fail to respond, do you mean getting a chief on the road, or gettin appropriately staffed apparatus responding?

If the Somers FD dispatch procedure for a co alarm calls for a Chief only then they "covered" the alarm.

If the response procedure calls for an single Engine or Ladder response or a "general" alarm, then I dont think this could be considered a "covered" alarm.

If they were on scene over an hour then they were using fans and venting the structure while searching for the source. A Chief response would not cover this task.

[chief10 1]

Just a question does Westchester have the 4 minute rule? In rockland a truck or chief must be responding in 4 minutes or 44 Control dispatches the next closest department . There is no 2nd or 3rd tone.for the initial department

[Goose 188]

This is kind of like it taking 27 minutes to get a bus for a jumper down....

[fireboyny 61]

Sounds like a normal day in westchester, no suprise here.

I think your Confusing "Somers" with Westchester.

While many "volly" departments occasionally screw up an alarm every now and then. Anyone who has listened to 46.26 can tell you that this is EXTREMELY COMMON practice with Somers. Heck, they have even failed to show up for several "larger" incidents.

[JFLYNN 681]

Then maybe they should develop a plan instead of toning out multiple times before going to mutual aid. How many rigs does SFD have? Call the next due unit if you have other rigs (not mutual aid)

1st - If they keep crying wolf, you need to have a plan to resolve it. just saying screw it is not a plan. Particularly with CO, since it can come and go and sometimes is very hard to find the source.

2nd - The call had a chief onsceen with readings and they still needed M/A to get 1 engine.

>>> Originally came in as an automatic CO Alarm. 2443 signed on and got o/s and reported readings at the door. An engine and the ambulance were requested, 80B2 responded, engine was not successful, Katonah FD was requested M/A 1 engine. Units remained on scene for 1 hour and a 1/2. <<<

Hello Members of the media (I know you read this)....why not do some investigative journalism into the very serious, life threatening issue of fire department and EMS departments in Westchester County vis-a-vis, oftentimes ridiculously long response times, inadequately trained responders, duplication of resources, lack of transparency in regard to finances and frankly many other issues within lots of departments. This is serious stuff!

Disclaimer- , I must very clearly state....this is not an attack on volunteer Firefighters, EMS workers or their departments! There are many dedicated and knowledgeable volunteer members of emergency services in this region. However, the SYSTEM is BROKEN!

Positive change very rarely comes from inside of an organization, but rather through blunt force trauma from the outside. Well media, how about a little blunt force trauma in regard to this issue? Personally, my own department has been going through some blunt force trauma from certain segments of the media lately, and I'm ok with that- there's nothing to hide, no organization is perfect, transparency and acceptance of change are good things....Why are volunteer organizations who equally hold the fate of people's lives and property (and taxes) in their hands getting a pass from the media?

In closing, I will pre-emptively state that I will not be engaging in a back and forth bicker on this topic, and yes, I do anticipate attempts at deflecting from the issue at hand by attacking myself personally as well as my own department. So, please don't take my non-responsiveness as acquiesence, agreement, or defeat. I'm just too busy to bother with responding to all of it. This post is really just for the media- maybe someday someone in the media in this area will wake up and realize how honest reporting in regard to this crisis would save lives, property and dollars. I'm not optimistic though, because I guess it's just easier to attack salaries, benefits, and pensions, and ignore an almost completely broken system right next door.

stay safe and qtip brothers and sisters!

Edited September 7, 2012 by JFLYNN

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I think your Confusing "Somers" with Westchester.

While many "volly" departments occasionally screw up an alarm every now and then. Anyone who has listened to 46.26 can tell you that this is EXTREMELY COMMON practice with Somers. Heck, they have even failed to show up for several "larger" incidents.

It's ON!

[BigBuff 27]

If the Somers FD dispatch procedure for a co alarm calls for a Chief only then they "covered" the alarm.

If the response procedure calls for an single Engine or Ladder response or a "general" alarm, then I dont think this could be considered a "covered" alarm.

If they were on scene over an hour then they were using fans and venting the structure while searching for the source. A Chief response would not cover this task.

Right.. What I was meaning to say is, even though the chief went, he cant do anything besides get readings. He requested an engine and they failed to get one rolling, is what I was trying to say.

[BigBuff 27]

I think your Confusing "Somers" with Westchester.

While many "volly" departments occasionally screw up an alarm every now and then. Anyone who has listened to 46.26 can tell you that this is EXTREMELY COMMON practice with Somers. Heck, they have even failed to show up for several "larger" incidents.

Are you for real? First off 46.26 does not dispatch Somers, and secondly, what large incident did Somers not respond to? In or out of district? I have maybe once, or twice heard that Somers did not cover an engine to standby in YHFD HQ. Never did I hear them not get enough manpower o/s of a "large incident" like you said.

If I remember right, didnt you say you lived in Somers? You see the structure fire a few weeks ago, they had enough manpower that an engine was parked on the side for the duration of the event. You see the brush fire a few months ago? Tons of manpower. Now, your turn to tell me the several large incidents they didnt show up to. Very Common is the LAST thing you should say about them, they had 6 different trucks out at 2am the other night for the thunderstorm that rolled by, but they dont show up to large incidents, huh?

Please, elaborate.

Edited September 7, 2012 by BigBuff

[CLM92982 26]

Just a question does Westchester have the 4 minute rule? In rockland a truck or chief must be responding in 4 minutes or 44 Control dispatches the next closest department . There is no 2nd or 3rd tone.for the initial department

Negative. If memory serves me correctly, the breakdown for agencies dispatched by 60 Control are as follows:

Staffed Fire and EMS agencies: (Dispatch) - One minute to respond

Unstaffed EMS agencies: (Dispatch) - Three minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - Three minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - (Dispatch) mutual aid agency

Unstaffed Fire agencies: (Dispatch) - Five minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - Five minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - (Dispatch) mutual aid agency

[billwiegelman 1]

This is uncommon for Somers, I have never heard of them failing to cover a FD call. (I am not listening at ALL times, obviously)

Not as uncommon as you think. I had a fire at my house and they never showed..10 minutes after i called I got a chief with a landscapers truck..the head chiefs excuse..there was traffic..joke!

[Goose 188]

Negative. If memory serves me correctly, the breakdown for agencies dispatched by 60 Control are as follows:

Staffed Fire and EMS agencies: (Dispatch) - One minute to respond

Unstaffed EMS agencies: (Dispatch) - Three minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - Three minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - (Dispatch) mutual aid agency

Unstaffed Fire agencies: (Dispatch) - Five minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - Five minutes to respond - (Redispatch) - (Dispatch) mutual aid agency

Yeah, there is no way in hell that is the case. They give me about 15 seconds to jump out of the rack and get my boots on before they starting asking for my status on overnights ! But, in all seriousness, i'm pretty sure they have to go by whatever scheme the department establishes. As a small side bar, i really have to tip my hat to the 60 dispatchers - they do an awfully good job with the hands they are dealt (i often think that they are asked do their jobs with both legs and one arm tied behind their back). They do their best to get the job done - god knows they've figured out how to get me a bus when ~ 100 members between 3 agencies decide to shut the pager off. They probably bare witness to more egregiousness than anyone here in terms of this sort of stuff.

This is the kind of crap you would think the journal news would cover. Honestly, these are real stories.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Goose

[CLM92982 26]

But, in all seriousness, i'm pretty sure they have to go by whatever scheme the department establishes.

While I can't confirm when and how the protocol was established, it was not tailor-made for each individual agency. All agencies dispatched by 60 Control fall into one of those three categories.

[JBJ1202 27]

But, in all seriousness, i'm pretty sure they have to go by whatever scheme the department establishes.

The statement CLM92982 gave is correct. Protocol is based on the type of agency you are. Agencies dispatched by 60 Control do not have the option to set re-dispatch protocols. If they did, you wouldn't hear so many on the air.

JBJ

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Shouldn't the more appropriate dispatch for a CO call be:

1. Supervisor

2. EMS

3. A Truck Company

If evaluating, treating, transporting victims, locating and eliminating the CO source, then ventilation are your priorities, I would prefer a truck company for ventilation as opposed to an engine company.

Just my opinion.

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

Shouldn't the more appropriate dispatch for a CO call be:

1. Supervisor

2. EMS

3. A Truck Company

If evaluating, treating, transporting victims, locating and eliminating the CO source, then ventilation are your priorities, I would prefer a truck company for ventilation as opposed to an engine company.

Just my opinion.

Most engines up here carry CO meters and fans. Just the name of the game

[BFD1054 1,552]

Staffing/manpower is a big issue for MANY agencies across the area. As others such as Bnechis have said, do something about it!

If you know you have issues, put an automatic mutual aid plan into effect (not that M/A should be abused).

As for CO calls; my dept sends the rescue only when there is a report of symptoms. If no symptoms are reported, a Chief will respond (non emerency) and assess the situation. We've found that a large percentage of CO calls turn out to be dead batteries in the detector. Why send an apparatus (or several) going code 3 for a dead battery? Maybe that's just my feeling?

As for Somers, maybe the paid ambulance crew should carry structural PPE, hand tools, extinguishers, SCBAs, meters, etc. (insert sarcasm).

Edited September 8, 2012 by BFD1054

[TRUCK6018 50]

As for Somers, maybe the paid ambulance crew should carry structural PPE, hand tools, extinguishers, SCBAs, meters, etc. (insert sarcasm).

Don't laugh, years ago when the "ambulances" were "rescues", there were SCBAs on each of them.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Most engines up here carry CO meters and fans. Just the name of the game

I know that Bro, I worked my career up there. By now, all truck companies should carry CO meters. Since ventilation is part of their game, I'd think it would be more appropriate to have them responding on these CO calls.

Now there's two type of CO calls; the ones where like Mike pointed out, you get a defective CO alarm and many times a repeat activation.

However, I've been to jobs where it was a legit CO release within the structure, with victims affected by CO inhalation, etc. This is where the truck should be responding.

Especially those departments who practice positive pressure ventilation (which I personally don't believe in for fire attack). These PPV fans are perfect for CO venting.

Once again, just my opinion.

Stay safe.