Turnout Gear

[SageVigiles 1,194]

So my department is looking to purchase some turnout gear and I'm trying to do some research on different materials and manufacturers to see what's out there before we get too deep into the process. In the past we've just gotten whatever is cheapest and/or whatever the career department got, more often than not they bought whatever was cheap as well. We might be coming into some additional funding that might give us some more freedom to get a better quality product.

As far as materials, I'm curious as to what everyone likes as far as outer shell, moisture barrier, etc, and why they like a particular configuration. Its funny, with all the fire classes I've taken no one has ever really explained how to spec turnout gear specifically, and what to look for when you're doing the research.

I know I'm probably opening a gigantic can of worms here, but I'd also like to hear some thoughtful recommendations of what manufacturer you'd recommend, including why you like the product specifically. Not looking for "XYZ Department uses that, so we get that because its gotta be good" I'm looking for something a little more substantive.

We had a rep from a company called INNOTex come in last week, I've never heard of them before but it did have some different features I haven't seen before. Could be marketing BS, could be something, I honestly don't know enough yet. Has anyone had any specific experience with them?

If anyone has any reading materials that can help me, PM me and I'll give you my email.

Thanks in advance.

[antiquefirelt 994]

SageVigiles: We've just changed to a more performance based spec. We detail color, trim, pockets, clips, holders etc. Then we've decided that instead of speccing a particular outershell, MB and liner, we'll spec specific TPP and THL values that must be met. This allows each manufacturer a chance to use the combination their most comfortable with and give us the best price. Given the purchase costs are lower than our bid required number, we can toss our gear we feel is poorly constructed (or not as good at least). Our newest spec just came out and morning Pride is selling us a demo set on the cheap(? half -price). We'd been ordering Globe G-Extreme and found it to be pretty good, to a man I've yet to hear a complaint and in this building that's saying something. We supposedly had to change up our spec due to 100% Basofil no longer being offered. I will tell you the cost of our spec is likely far more than your previous price point if you were getting the cheapest you could.

As for the research side, we took all the outershell, MB and liner TPP and THL numbers charted them on a spreadsheet and determined the top 20 or 25 combinations so that we could spec a specific total score. Here's the main part:

Our goal is to purchase custom fitted gear with the best protection at the lightest weight and least bulk for a reasonable price. The gear shall be black in color and the coat shall be mid length and the pants shall not be of the rise back or bib style.

The minimum acceptable TPP shall be: 45

The minimum acceptable THL shall be: 250

The minimum acceptable combined TPP + THL shall be: 300

(using the individual minimums together will not result in meeting the combined score 295/300)

I'll send you a PM and upon receipt of your email can send you the full spec.

[FireMedic049 597]

Yeah, PPE specification isn't really taught much. I did a fair bit of research when I updated my department's specs about 7 years ago. We were looking more for performance than price. We are a small urban career department with a lot of old construction along with abondoned SFDs and catch a good bit of fire - both arson and accidental. At the time we were wearing Securitex with a PBI outer shell. It didn't seem to hold up very well at all. There were some wear issues related to the construction of the gear rather than the materials used. We had a lot of issues with the "buttons" for the suspenders breaking frequently.

We selected Morning Pride as the manufacturer with Globe (G-xtreme) a relatively close second. Cost per set for both was within less than $5 of each other, but the MP seemed to offer "more for the money". PBI Matrix was selected as the outer shell in part because of good past experience with PBI and also because it is one of the toughest fabrics. We selected a 3-layer E-89 thermal liner with a Crosstech moisture barrier. It was actually our 2nd choice, there was a military-related availability issue with the original selection. Overall the gear has performed far superior to what we were using prior and most of the original purchase is now serving as a "backup" set and in decent shape for that limited use role. The fit of the gear for me at least was superior to anything else I'd worn to that point. There were lots of grumbling about the Securitex from the guys, but I don't recall much of any with the MP.

The spec was updated last year in part to address some areas of high wear that didn't perform as well as we'd have liked (specifically the reinforcement material used in certain spots) and in part due to economics. We again selected MP. The outer shell was changed from PBI Matrix to Advance Ultra (which wasn't available the last time) in order to save $100+ per set, but the new fabric had very similar performance numbers to the PBI Matrix. When the gear arrived, the outer shell was actually the regular Advance material. Still not sure how that change occurred. We switched to a new 2-layer "slick" liner that the nearby large metro department was now using. Crosstech is still the moisture barrier. After one year of use now, the new stuff is performing well. We'll have to see in another year or two if the new outer shell is durible enough for our needs. I think my new set fits even better than the first set of MP.

The things I specifically like about MP's product would be:

• Best fitting, most comfortable gear I've ever worn.
  
• The "heat channel" knee is more comfortable than other knee padding that I've tried, plus it adds a lot of protection against compression burns to the knees.
  
• They offer additional upper body/shoulder/arm thermal protection with the use of their "dead air panels". This option significantly raises the TPP of those regions without lowering the THL of those regions.
  
• The coat cuffs are designed in a fashion where your arms don't get soaked (inside) when working with your arms raised.
  

Globe offers a strong product, but I think MP is a better one overall.

Overall, I've had good experience with the materials listed and would certainly recommend them for use.

Personally, I've had no experience with Innotex.

[peterose313 345]

Not to hijack this but how often do departments get new turnout gear? I only ask because a ff I know where I'm cottaging right now just had someone rent his cottage who was a ff from a city in Ontario, Canada tell him they get new gear every 2 years.

Is that typically the norm or is that a pretty short period of time for new gear?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Very short time period, in my experience.

[FireMedic049 597]

Not to hijack this but how often do departments get new turnout gear? I only ask because a ff I know where I'm cottaging right now just had someone rent his cottage who was a ff from a city in Ontario, Canada tell him they get new gear every 2 years.

Is that typically the norm or is that a pretty short period of time for new gear?

Off hand I'd say that every 2 years is a pretty short replacement cycle, however it may very well be right on the money for their needs. NFPA 1851 states TOG should be retired when it reaches 10 years old, however this "maximum" life expectancy will not be appropriate for FDs that have a lot of fire duty. Mayberry VFD may be able to get 10 years out of a set, but FFs in the busiest companies of FDNY may only get 2-3 years out of a set before it is no longer servicable.

Oftentimes, money plays a significant factor in the length of replacement cycle used.

In my department, we are now (by contract) to be issued a new (primary) set every 4 years. When we get a new set, what was the primary set becomes our backup set and what was the backup set if still servicable, will become "reserve inventory" to be used to initially outfit new hires until their "primary set" is delivered or as a temporary substitute while repairs are made to one of the issued sets. For us, the 4 year cycle seems to be just about right. The gear is beat up by that point, but still in decent enough shape in most cases that it should be able to last 4 more years as a back up with limited usage.

[everybodygoes 331]

If you take care of your gear it will last over ten years. Send it out to cleaning and treat it as if you own it and it lasts. I have pants that are over 10 years old and will be replaced and I am sure some proby will be wearing them when they end up hiring guys. It would be great if you could allow people to pick the manufacturer that they want to wear and not get the same for everyone. I personally would love to wear globe at work but am stuck with morning pride. Getting one style for everyone is not really practical but when you deal with hundreds of sets of gear it gets difficult to supply individual needs.

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

We purchase 12 sets annually. This replaces everyone's gear about every 5 years. Occasionally some will go a little longer some a little shorter due to usage,damage etc. We put a max limit at 10 yrs. This is a cycle we have been in since 1999.

[peterose313 345]

Thanks guys, it sounded kind of fishy to me. Especially considering the friend of mine was told that this person's department donates their old gear to other countries or something once they get new stuff.

Anyways, back to the whole point of this thread. Sorry Sage!