Help for Younger Officers

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I've been facing a problem with one of my departments and talking to a lot of my fellow UNH graduates, apparently I'm not the only one. So hopefully this thread helps someone other than me.

I am a relatively new Lieutenant (it will be a year in November) in a volunteer company that has been somewhat stagnant in growth and activity over a period of years. We also have a small career department as well.

Myself and several "younger" (college age) members have been talking and reviewing what goes on in our station. We have no regular training schedule to speak of and many of the "senior" guys are content to continue with the status quo. At best, this is a real annoyance to some of the younger members who want to come to the firehouse to learn and expect the senior guys to teach them. At worst, its downright dangerous. I have members who haven't thrown a ladder or humped a line in YEARS on the drillground that come out of the woodwork for structure fires and the other "hero" calls.

The career side is usually MORE than willing to help us train, and the younger guys participate when they can, but I still can't motivate the more senior people to get out and set the example, and I know this will lead to a sizable rift within the company's culture between the younger "gung-ho" guys and the less motivated senior people. Unfortunately due to bylaw provisions most of those younger guys are also unable to run for Line Officer positions to change things in a dramatic way.

A few of us are taking some initiative and going to take our Fire Instructor to be able to offer some more formal training in addition to the impromptu drill schedule we've set up, but I'm the first to admit that even after 5 years as an interior firefighter, there's a TON of stuff I don't know and am not comfortable teaching. I can get guest instructors if I need them, but it still doesn't help the problem of getting the senior personnel to the drills.

Anybody have any advice on how to motivate my guys and maybe start steering the culture of the company in a different direction? Anything would be appreciated.

Edited August 2, 2012 by SageVigiles

[NJMedic 96]

Good luck. The last volunteer company is belong to fit this description to a T. Older members who had no interest in training. At least they had no interest in showing up for to working fires as well so at least they didn't get in the way. Wish I had some words of wisdom to impart on you but alas you typical have to wait until they die or NFPA, State, Federal laws overwhelm them and force them out of the way.

[SteveOFD 176]

Been there, done that, and thirty years later, I'm still doing that. I am continually stressing training in my Company/FD. For over thirty years (with eleven years as an Officer in my current FD) I have seen the same thing you are talking about.

The way I have done it, is to keep taking training courses. Go to seminars. Go to trade shows (http://newenglandfirechiefs.org/page.asp_Q_navigationid_E_1) is a good one I have gone to a couple of times. Keep learning. The more training you personally acquire, the more confidence you will have to pass this knowledge you learn to newer (and hopefully senior) members. The acquisition of knowledge will help you back up your position and hopefully get the respect of all members of your FD. With this respect comes the ability to hopefully change attitudes. It takes time, and I remember way back then (when I had five years in the FD) I was just like you. It just takes time.

Even with thirty years in my FD, I still attend at least one or two courses at the County Training Center each year, and attend trade show/seminars.

Expect to keep banging your head against the proverbial wall. That's what helmets are for .

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Expect to keep banging your head against the proverbial wall. That's what helmets are for .

That quote may end up getting hung up on my locker.

Edited August 2, 2012 by SageVigiles

[Atv300 69]

Nothing will change over night that's for sure but don't give up. When you and your buddy's become the senior/ old guys remember what you were pushing for and keep it moving forward. It sucks but it takes time just like anything also make sure you guys work on keeping the right leaders in also remember more flies with honey then vinegar.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

First thing, classrooms are not the place to motivate firefighters. Unless you can offer something compelling. Take NIOSH LODD reports and recreate them on a white board. Explain to them the events leading up to what went wrong. This will stick in their heads.

Classroom time; limit it to 30 minutes before you break. Open the windows, doors, let fresh oxygen in as it depletes while everyone is sitting there and makes them sleepy.

Second thing, get them outside with the rigs and equipment. This is what they want to be doing in the first place. Be creative, but not dangerous.

The more imaginative you can be with your training the better it's going to go.

Get that gear and equipment out of those compartments. Let them get hands on with everything.

Lastly, have a simple goal in mind for the training session. One thing that you really want to stress, impress and make them remember.

[jack10562 414]

Don't your by-laws spell out minimum training and participation for membership such as having X number of hours of hands-on / drill time, or other attendance stipulations to remain active?

If many of the "older" guys you're talking about are "lifers" who only show up for the glory jobs, they must be exterior-only, otherwise they would need to meet much more stringent requirements in order to be "covered" as an interior firefighter.

It can be difficult to attract and retain volunteers in the fire service anymore, but everyone needs to be on the same page when it comes down to working safely at a job, and in reality the only way to do that is with hands on.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Unfortunately Jack our bylaws are mum on the subject. I'm currently updating them as part of a committee, but the last time someone tried a bylaw change like that, all the old timers came out and voted against it.

I'm considering asking for an SOP or something that will not have to come to a vote but still carries weight, especially if it comes from the Chief's office.

[wraftery 1,275]

It looks like you are in New Hampshire. If I am right, the state motto is "Live Free or Die." Maybe those older guys sre just "living free" and don't want to be told that they have to train. The second alternative in the state motto could come into play for one or more people in your department if you don't train.

Along with what EFDCAPT115 said, you might also try these:

1. See if the state has any requirements in place for training.

2. Go to a similar dept in your area that you feel is "squared away." Find out how they go about getting interest in training. They might even be nice enough to give you their training schedule and/or lesson plans.

3. Get a dept like the one in #2 to allow you to join them in a mutual aid drill

4.Bring a guest speaker in and have the speaker scare the sh#$ out of them. For you, I would try DC John Sullivan, Worcester MA, or somebody from Peabody, MA.

Try some of these tricks and get back to us with an evaluation.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Not New Hampshire, the other UNH, New Haven... haha. But that's still very good advice nonetheless.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

It looks like you are in New Hampshire. If I am right, the state motto is "Live Free or Die." Maybe those older guys sre just "living free" and don't want to be told that they have to train. The second alternative in the state motto could come into play for one or more people in your department if you don't train.

Along with what EFDCAPT115 said, you might also try these:

1. See if the state has any requirements in place for training.

2. Go to a similar dept in your area that you feel is "squared away." Find out how they go about getting interest in training. They might even be nice enough to give you their training schedule and/or lesson plans.

3. Get a dept like the one in #2 to allow you to join them in a mutual aid drill

4.Bring a guest speaker in and have the speaker scare the sh#$ out of them. For you, I would try DC John Sullivan, Worcester MA, or somebody from Peabody, MA.

Try some of these tricks and get back to us with an evaluation.

Number 4 Chief. Very good. I'd recommend Salka. That guy.........lol

[wraftery 1,275]

Not New Hampshire, the other UNH, New Haven... haha. But that's still very good advice nonetheless.

OK, Sage, we'll scratch the "Live Free or Die" but keep the rest. At least you didn't Yale at me over my mistake.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

OK, Sage, we'll scratch the "Live Free or Die" but keep the rest. At least you didn't Yale at me over my mistake.

Well played sir.

[FF1 172]

I see the same issues being a LT. in my mid-20s. I had older members refuse to come to monthly training, live fire training, walk throughs, ect., and not come to the residential alarms, CO alarms, and service calls, but be the first one on the scene ready to go to work when the dispatch "sounds good".

As much as we need manpower and can use all the hands we can get, that member was told to do exterior support work or leave the scene.

Now I'm viewed as the hardass on a powertrip with no respect for all of the years of service 15-20 + year members put in, but at the end of the day, I know that the guys, who's ability I know and who I've trained side by side with, can be given tasks that will be completed efficiantly and more importantly, safely. At the end of the day, I cannot jepordize peoples safety by sending the 20 year guy, who has been in 50 + fires, but hasn't kept up with training, into a fire and hope he remembers what to do from his last worker 5 years ago.

Maybe I'm the a******, but at least I know safety will not be compromised

[LTFIREPRG 154]

It’s good that you and some of the younger guys are perusing you fire service instructor certification. Be a sponge, attend as many courses and seminar as you can. There is always some new information or technique to learn.

It is a difficult thing to try and get older members to participate in training, especially in the volunteer setting. I’m sure you have heard some of the standard reply’s “I have more time on the siren, then you have been on this earth son” or “the new broom sweeps clean”. Don’t get discouraged, continue to increase your knowledge and skills and share what you have learned with anyone who wants to learn and grow. I beleive and would tell everyone of my classes to new firefighters I tought, weather career or volunteer, that training is a career long commitment. As I have said before, the fire does not care if you are getting paid or volunteering, if you are required by law to have 300 hours or 8 hours of training, its will kill you just the same.

One way you might accomplish getting senior members to participate is to form a training committee and invite some of the senior influential members to be part of the committee. Tell them you would like their input on the difficulties and issues they have faced in the past during fire and emergency operations so you (the company, department, the training committee) can focus the training in these as well as the other necessary areas. Remember the old saying; people tend to support what they help create. Also now these senior influential members of your committee will hopefully motivate the other senior members to participate in the training that they are a part of developing. Even if you get 25% of the senior members, you have increased the overall safety of the department and others may follow.

Don’t get discouraged, keep plugging along it’s not going to happen over night.

[Remember585 815]

I find that all of the training I offer to my department garners certain people to certain training. And I attribute this all to what I learned in FSI 1 - Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

Every single one of us wants to feel comfortable, accepted and safe. We all have boundaries, we all have self-doubts and we all know the s*** that scares us. At the same time, each of us has a niche or a special talent that works to the advantage of our department. For the longest time, I would get so very annoyed with the lackluster turnout for training and drills I scheduled, thinking we would never get better. A lot of my mentors and good friends kept telling me to just keep doing what I am doing, because even if 5 guys come to a drill, that's 5 guys that learned something. So now, I still feel a little discouraged when I don't get a larger turnout, but the average number of attendants has increased quite a bit.

And, here's my favorite thing about it - the mixed level of experience of those coming out. My youngest members love it when the more senior (cough, old, cough) guys come out to play. It's an inspiration to us to see that 30 year member come out for an all day Saturday drill. We see them at meeting nights, picnics and calls - so it's nice to see them at training too. It helps us all become a more cohesive unit, with the careful balance of experience, training and new ambition that every organization needs to survive. I have been around for 20 years, starting out when I was 14, and look forward to doing it for a long time. I honestly cherish the times I get to spend with my guys at training - it's the best bonding experience (besides actual incidents) for all of us to get to do what we like to do.

So in a nutshell - just keep running your drills, and don't be disappointed if the turnout is small. If you keep doing it, people will start talking about what you did at that last drill, whether it's something new that was learned or just something hysterical that happened, and eventually curiosity will bring more people in.

If that doesn't work - offer up massages with happy endings at the end of every drill... (I'm kidding of course, but if you do, call me, )

[dwcfireman 656]

Sage,

As a young, now ex-officer, I can completely relate to your situation. When I turned 21, marking my 3 years as a firefighter and thus allowing (by by-laws) to run for lieutenant, I was pressured into running and becoming an officer. Low and behold, I became the youngest lieutenant [ever] in my hometown fire department. I had a lot of issues to face, not only from a training perspective, but to live up to my family name (my father was chief and my mother a lieutenant, both for several years). Being an officer is a terrible place for a young firefighter, no matter the situation.

Any how, let's get to your issue: How do we get the older guys invlolved in training and helping the younger guys learn and gain experience. I will tell you there is no right answer. And the older guys will tell you all the wrong answers (I'm not bashing anybody here, but let's face the fact that the older generation of firefighters are more susceptible to tradition than progression). So, I'm going to tell you my little secret.

Here's my secret: Find an ex-chief, or a firefighter that has been around a while, or any of the older guys that has a real passion for the job. And, if you're ready for it, because this is the hard part, ask for their help. Do this in a comfotable setting (for me, I pulled an ex-chief aside in the bar and asked him, "How do I do this?"). Most people in the fire service, when you ask, are more than willing to help...well, you should know that since you have plenty of responses to your question already. But let's get back on track...once you have that elder's attention, he or she will tell you what you need to do and how to do it (especially after a few adult beverages). Continue talking to them until they decide to go home. You won't believe the information that spills out of their mouths.

The other approach that I've taken was to be an authoritarian. This is where you put your foot down and say, "You are doing this, or you're not riding the fire truck. Period." This is a last ditch effort, however. Please refer to the previous paragraph as much as possible before resorting to the authoritarian approach. There's a time to be an @$$hole as an officer, but it should only be a last resort. I will tell you from experience, if you are a hard @$$ as an officer, volunteers will not show up. But, if they don't want to cooperate, remind those folks of the rules/by-laws, and show them who's the boss.

Bottom line, be confident in all of your decisions. Be confident in your training. As always, take more classes. If you need to, find guest instructors. But, most importantly, as an officer you cannot be afraid to ask questions. If you show the older guys (by asking them questions) that you want to learn more, and that your younger guys want to learn more, then they will be more willing to help out and show up to training.

[ex-commish 490]

Sage I can't offer any more advice than what has been given to you by some very credible and knowledgeable people in this forum. I do want to commend you for taking a task most can't or won't do and that is trying to motivate people to engage in the most important element of our business which is training. I have been in your shoes and believe me it is not just the senior members that lack motivation I also see it in the newer ones who seem know it all. Just keep at it. Good luck!!

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Sage,

As a young, now ex-officer, I can completely relate to your situation. When I turned 21, marking my 3 years as a firefighter and thus allowing (by by-laws) to run for lieutenant, I was pressured into running and becoming an officer. Low and behold, I became the youngest lieutenant [ever] in my hometown fire department. I had a lot of issues to face, not only from a training perspective, but to live up to my family name (my father was chief and my mother a lieutenant, both for several years). Being an officer is a terrible place for a young firefighter, no matter the situation.

Any how, let's get to your issue: How do we get the older guys invlolved in training and helping the younger guys learn and gain experience. I will tell you there is no right answer. And the older guys will tell you all the wrong answers (I'm not bashing anybody here, but let's face the fact that the older generation of firefighters are more susceptible to tradition than progression). So, I'm going to tell you my little secret.

Here's my secret: Find an ex-chief, or a firefighter that has been around a while, or any of the older guys that has a real passion for the job. And, if you're ready for it, because this is the hard part, ask for their help. Do this in a comfotable setting (for me, I pulled an ex-chief aside in the bar and asked him, "How do I do this?"). Most people in the fire service, when you ask, are more than willing to help...well, you should know that since you have plenty of responses to your question already. But let's get back on track...once you have that elder's attention, he or she will tell you what you need to do and how to do it (especially after a few adult beverages). Continue talking to them until they decide to go home. You won't believe the information that spills out of their mouths.

The other approach that I've taken was to be an authoritarian. This is where you put your foot down and say, "You are doing this, or you're not riding the fire truck. Period." This is a last ditch effort, however. Please refer to the previous paragraph as much as possible before resorting to the authoritarian approach. There's a time to be an @$$hole as an officer, but it should only be a last resort. I will tell you from experience, if you are a hard @$$ as an officer, volunteers will not show up. But, if they don't want to cooperate, remind those folks of the rules/by-laws, and show them who's the boss.

Bottom line, be confident in all of your decisions. Be confident in your training. As always, take more classes. If you need to, find guest instructors. But, most importantly, as an officer you cannot be afraid to ask questions. If you show the older guys (by asking them questions) that you want to learn more, and that your younger guys want to learn more, then they will be more willing to help out and show up to training.

Your post is interesting, however I think you are being a bit judgmental when you lump all "older" firemen into one group and say they are more susceptible to tradition than progression.

First off, while older firemen love tradition, most younger people (if they truly have the heart of firefighting within) quickly fall in love with tradition as well.

Yet while older guys love their traditions, many have always been focused on progression as well. How do you think the fire service has gotten to the point it has today? It has been lead by the more experienced, who have done the work, done the legislative lobbying, developed new SOP/G's for fireground operation and training as well.

I know the old-timers Sage referring too. If they can't cut the interior qualifications, they're out. Simple as that. There is plenty more for them to do outside, just make sure they don't get their hands on an unauthorized hoseline and start shooting it in the windows while the interior peeps are doing their thing.

In closing, I guess the distinction must be made with regard to training and senior members as to whether or not they are going to be interior. And making sure that those who are not going in, don't do anything dangerous on the fireground to endanger those within, or any other part of the operation.

[16fire5 693]

Second thing, get them outside with the rigs and equipment. This is what they want to be doing in the first place. Be creative, but not dangerous.

Get that gear and equipment out of those compartments. Let them get hands on with everything.

This is a really great way to start. Morph you equipment checks into small training sessions. When ever we had the portable ladders out for washing and they get pretty dirty on the side of the rig or in the well we would throw them against the side of the building. First it builds compentency and second it is a great way to find defects. The only way they will be proficient in tying a halyard is if they do it. Take all your ladders out and extend them against the building and mark with tape how far you can get. Take a picture. This way members know the limitations visually of the various lengths.

Same goes for the saws. It's easy to get pallets for members to train with. Same goes for some rebar to practice vertical and horizontal cuts with the forcible entry saw.

Air Bags. Lift someones (Chief) car or the rig.

Use the responses to do training too. When investigating gas leaks I give the meters to young guys and walk them through the meters. Realize before you know it you may be one of the old guys and the young guy wil be a Lieutenant. Set him up to suceed better than you. If you see something interesting gather the rest of the crew so they see it. Whenever I encounters an elevator door out of the ordinary I encouraged everyone to get the door open (after we removed the occupants)

The other thing is maybe some operational changes are possible that make people run through the motions on routine responses that will increase member compentency. This is especially important if you are a less active department. Here are some examples of what I mean.

Lay in for every reported fire.

Consider stretching a dry line to the door to the occupancy.

Have someone do a 360 on automatic alarms, gas leaks, and CO calls. Teach them what they are looking for. Make sure the basement always gets a look.

It's never easy being a new company officer just as much on the career side. Your number one job is to keep them safe. Making them as well trained and proficient as possible is a huge way to acheive this.

[wm6ff 6]

KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Sounds like you are trying to reinvent the wheel by yourself. One word of advice keep everyone in your department involved in making changes. Pissing off the old guard will not win you any support when you need it from them. How often do you have officers' meetings? Maybe you need to have more. But next officers' meeting walk in with a poster size piece of paper and tack it to the wall and split down the middle with a line. On one side put up things the guys like about the current setup and the other side about where'd they'd like to see the dept go. Do this with general company too and compare. Then develop a plan to present to the organization and go from there!

[wraftery 1,275]

KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Sounds like you are trying to reinvent the wheel by yourself. One word of advice keep everyone in your department involved in making changes. Pissing off the old guard will not win you any support when you need it from them. How often do you have officers' meetings? Maybe you need to have more. But next officers' meeting walk in with a poster size piece of paper and tack it to the wall and split down the middle with a line. On one side put up things the guys like about the current setup and the other side about where'd they'd like to see the dept go. Do this with general company too and compare. Then develop a plan to present to the organization and go from there!

Looks like the new officers have had enough to chew on with all the posts that came down this thread.

And REALLY LISTEN to wm6ff. Read her post again...the part about pissing people off. A new Lt. is very often Gung Ho and hot to trot. He has taken a couple of courses and wants the older guys to throw out a lot of things they do and follow the New Loo. Befriend the old guys, ask them what they would like to see in training. You might be surprised.

You cannot order respect, you have to earn it. That takes time and patience. Remember they're watching you. Who? The people below you and the people above you.

When an 18 year old goes away to college, they usually are happy to leave home because their father and his way thinking is so dumb.

Once they graduate and are looking for a job, they are amazed at how much the old man learned in four short years.

[dwcfireman 656]

Your post is interesting, however I think you are being a bit judgmental when you lump all "older" firemen into one group and say they are more susceptible to tradition than progression.

I understand where my post could have come off as a bit judgemental, and I appologize for that. I wasn't trying to be. I was just explaining my experiences to relate to Sage's issue.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I understand where my post could have come off as a bit judgemental, and I appologize for that. I wasn't trying to be. I was just explaining my experiences to relate to Sage's issue.

No need for apologies Bro. I hope you keep on contributing to the board. Your knowledge is very valuable here.

Stay safe.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When an 18 year old goes away to college, they usually are happy to leave home because their father and his way thinking is so dumb.

Once they graduate and are looking for a job, they are amazed at how much the old man learned in four short years.

My father always said that 25 is the age at which you realize your parents are not idiots

[Pointblank92 1]

,

Edited August 6, 2012 by Pointblank92