Navy Jet Crash Teaches Providers Many Lessons

[Sailr322 88]

http://www.jems.com/article/major-incidents/navy-jet-crash-teaches-providers-many-le

Interesting article on the review of how responders and dispatchers handled the Navy Jet Crash in Virginia Beach on April 6th this year. I was wondering what people think might happen if this happened where they worked, even with a central dispatch how would your region that may have a heavy mix of career, combo, and volunteer agencies. Would they be able to handle something like this?

[Hazmatguy 5]

You need to prepare for incidents whatever the actual event. I don't see why it would be surprising that "any" MCI could lead to confusion. It all comes down to proper training, planning and most importantly a command and control structure prepared to respond. It also requires discipline among all agencies and providers to manage an incident. "Freelancing" is probably the biggest obstacle to controlling an incident, yet people seem to always do what "they" want to do. If there is no discipline then you can expect total chaos......

Edited July 9, 2012 by Hazmatguy

[Goose 188]

You better pray this never happens in Westchester. If it did, the EMS system - given thats what i know best - would collapse.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Goose

[Sailr322 88]

You better pray this never happens in Westchester. If it did, the EMS system - given thats what i know best - would collapse.

You don't think that even with the drills that private companies such as Empress have and some of the fire departments such as Yonkers, Mount Vernon, or White Plains, we would be able to handle something like this? The ability to call upon outside resources such as FDNY as well?

[Goose 188]

I can't really speak to the FDs, but of those you mentioned Yonkers is probably the best staffed and most prepared. As far as EMS here - its a decentralized patchwork.

The Fitch study (which seems to have been removed from the WRESMCO website) should make everyone nauseous - something like that navy jet crashing happens in westchester and people will unnecessarily suffer. Its disgusting that people pay so much hard earned money in taxes and get horrendously provisioned services in return. Lets face it, a junkie on a street corner in one of the five boros gets a more timely EMS response than the overwhelming majority of Westchester residents.

The point is, too many agencies in westchester can't even manage routine call volume, we are overwhelmed on any given day...and thats without a disaster.

[Sailr322 88]

From a previous forum topic. This seems to outline a lot of what was in the Fitch study, and while there is a link to the actual study from WREMSCO they have removed the study. Maybe someone out there has more of it to add.

[wraftery 1,275]

First of all, VBFD has a MCI team and response unit, as does the Hampton Roads region. This includes units/teams in Chesapeake, Norfolk, Newport news. Because of the distinct possibility of an aircraft incident they run a drill with the Navy on a yearly basis, addressing issues unique to military aircraft such as ejection seats, carbon-fiber hazards, weapons hazards, etc. This is in addition to the "normal" MCIs like bus accidents,etc.

Try this on Youtube: VA Beach Airplane Crash Fire audio (FYI: In Va Beach A rescue is an ambulance, a Squad is similar to a NY rescue Co, Car 1,2,3,etc are Admin Chiefs, Numbers like 1234R are amblalnces.

I was listening live since my son was working, and also watching it on tv.

I was pretty impressed.

Westchester has a long way to go to meet this level of service. First, egos have to be swept under the rug. Your FD is probably Not better than the other guy's. If it is better, why noy help the other guy instead of pionting at his faults.

You will never finish improving if you don't start.

[ny10570 745]

Westchester could very easily operate just as efficiently and with just as many if not more resources with a centralized command structure. We have the staffing and manpower, but too often no where we need it when we need it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You don't think that even with the drills that private companies such as Empress have and some of the fire departments such as Yonkers, Mount Vernon, or White Plains, we would be able to handle something like this? The ability to call upon outside resources such as FDNY as well?

In another thread (http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/46574-can-westchester-depts-handle-this/) I asked if Westchester depts could handle a OMD fire like the one in Nassau county. No on was able to say yes with any credability.

Last week we had a bus accident/MCI on I-95 in New Rochelle. When EMS command asked for 2 additional ambulances (they had 4 onscene or inroute) and 1 mutual aid ambulance responding into the city to handle another call 60 Control said; "we are trying to get you more"......"Trying" sounds like hoping.....(not knocking the dispatchers as this is a system problem not a dispatch one).

We also requested a Bus to transport non-injured and or minor injured patients. We were told that none are available.

Luckily NYC was not busy as FDNY-BEMS sent us a task force and a MERV.

How far can we bury our head in the sand?

[wraftery 1,275]

Need a bus to transport not injured or minimally injured??

The easy way:

Have a plan and pre-committed resources for any MCI. Call 60-Control and get what you need.

The hard way:

(This is what I think happened at this incident) No plan for MCI's. Plead for a bus over and over. In time, someone will break down and get you a bus, but response time is unknown.

The dynamic Incident Commander way:

(You will certainly have to explain yourself after the incident is over, but you'll get your bus very soon) Tell the senior State Trooper on scene that you need a bus NOW and nobody is cooperating. Traffic is backing up from Philadelphia to Providence. Tell him to send a Trooper off the interstate, commandeer the first local bus he sees and bring it to the scene. From day one, Troopers are told that they are in charge of everything in the state. Whether they actually are or not is not important. I guarantee you if a state trooper is told to get a bus, he will come back to you with a bus, and very quickly. Next, tell the media what you did and praise the State Police for their actions.

You and the State Police now become heros on the 6 o'clock news. Anyone who would yell at you for taking such action cannot do so without having egg on their face.

[Sailr322 88]

Need a bus to transport not injured or minimally injured??

The easy way:

Have a plan and pre-committed resources for any MCI. Call 60-Control and get what you need.

The hard way:

(This is what I think happened at this incident) No plan for MCI's. Plead for a bus over and over. In time, someone will break down and get you a bus, but response time is unknown.

The dynamic Incident Commander way:

(You will certainly have to explain yourself after the incident is over, but you'll get your bus very soon) Tell the senior State Trooper on scene that you need a bus NOW and nobody is cooperating. Traffic is backing up from Philadelphia to Providence. Tell him to send a Trooper off the interstate, commandeer the first local bus he sees and bring it to the scene. From day one, Troopers are told that they are in charge of everything in the state. Whether they actually are or not is not important. I guarantee you if a state trooper is told to get a bus, he will come back to you with a bus, and very quickly. Next, tell the media what you did and praise the State Police for their actions.

You and the State Police now become heros on the 6 o'clock news. Anyone who would yell at you for taking such action cannot do so without having egg on their face.

What about the creation of a MERV for Westchester County? Creating it would be very easy and you could staff it out of Valhalla. The bigger issue would be staffing it, but we already have units such as Haz-Mat, Special Ops, Field Com 1, etc. staffed and capable of responding 24/7, why couldn't we do that with a MERV. In the most recent case that everyone is talking about in New Rochelle we were fortunate in that FDNY was able to bring resources BUT we were ALSO lucky in the location that it occurred. If the same incident happened further north in Westchester and farther from NYC and the resources that FDNY has to offer what would responders have done? Sat and waited for a Bee Line bus? Waited for one of the local school districts to lend a school bus? Would the creation of a MERV and the dedication of a fully staffed and ready to respond crew help alleviate some of the issue that EMS in Westchester faces should there be an incident like the one in Virginia Beach or do you think that it would just add "too many cooks to the kitchen" and create more issues?

[Sailr322 88]

I can't really speak to the FDs, but of those you mentioned Yonkers is probably the best staffed and most prepared. As far as EMS here - its a decentralized patchwork.

The Fitch study (which seems to have been removed from the WRESMCO website) should make everyone nauseous - something like that navy jet crashing happens in westchester and people will unnecessarily suffer. Its disgusting that people pay so much hard earned money in taxes and get horrendously provisioned services in return. Lets face it, a junkie on a street corner in one of the five boros gets a more timely EMS response than the overwhelming majority of Westchester residents.

The point is, too many agencies in westchester can't even manage routine call volume, we are overwhelmed on any given day...and thats without a disaster.

I managed to find a link to the previous study that you were talking about that provides the studies entire findings for anyone that may be interested: http://ebookbrowse.com/2008-ems-study-final-report-pdf-d295054334