Armonk Fire

[X2321 133]

It is just amazing how people can build these multi-million dollar homes in a non hydrant area and not have a sprinkler system. The lawn sprinklers kicked on at one point and worked fine. Here are some photos from the job. http://www.lohud.com...&nclick_check=1

[3hats 1]

I see they are thinking this might have been a lightning strike. What time did the thunderstorm(s) come thru the area and how bad?

[helicopper 1,050]

I see they are thinking this might have been a lightning strike. What time did the thunderstorm(s) come thru the area and how bad?

A good sized thunderstorm with significant air-air and air-ground lightning definitely came through between about 8 and 10 ish.

Air-air lightning persisted in the area until at least midnight.

[x4093k 654]

I see they are thinking this might have been a lightning strike. What time did the thunderstorm(s) come thru the area and how bad?

Some areas severe and some areas minimal. The thunder was gone by 22:00 but lightining continued through 0200 or so (at least up in northern westchester) many lightining strikes were seen. My "buff" scanner in my house was going off like crazy with wires down & lightining strike calls..

Edited July 5, 2012 by x4093k

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is just amazing how people can build these multi-million dollar homes in a non hydrant area and not have a sprinkler system.

Thats because the law does not require them and the majority of the fire service has not pushed for change.

[ny10570 745]

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection? My father is an educated man rarely completely ignorant of a subject. He long ago realized that in the event of a fire if it goes beyond that first room he prefered it burn to the ground to save him on demolition and waste hauling costs. He was also well aware of the pitfalls of volunteer fire protection and had his home well insured. This was all many years before I became a volley. The one consolation he took was there is a hydrant 50' from our propety. Only after I joined the local FD did we find out how useless that hydrant was.

The point to this ramble is the average home owner has no idea. They see an FD full of trucks a few blocks away and assume they're protected. Since FDs are the last to advertise their ineptitude who is going to tell the homeowners they're on their own?

[JM15 386]

Armonk is back there again for another "re-kindle"

[SECTMB 612]

The cost of a residential sprinkler system in a home of this size and value is negligible. Aside from local building and FD not pushing for them, I don't understand why the insurance companies aren't advancing the notion.

By the way, that's pretty funny (ironically) that the lawn sprinklers activated during the alarm.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Armonk is back there again for another "re-kindle"

The term "Re-Kindle" should never be used.

How can a fire that is extingushed, "Re-Kindle"? It can not.

When a fire occurs in the same structure hours (or days) later, one of three things has occured:

1) The arrsonest returned to complete the job

2) The fire dept. did a poor job of overhaul and missed something (most common with a smells & bells or a small "room & content" incident)

3) The fire dept. made a determination that after a major fire (often with collapse) that there were no exposure issues and no way to do overhaul (without heavy equipment) and often it was in the best interest of the safety of the members to regroup and wait.

Based on the size of this fire...sounds like #3. so it was not a "Re-Kindle".

[JM15 386]

The term "Re-Kindle" should never be used.

How can a fire that is extingushed, "Re-Kindle"? It can not.

When a fire occurs in the same structure hours (or days) later, one of three things has occured:

1) The arrsonest returned to complete the job

2) The fire dept. did a poor job of overhaul and missed something (most common with a smells & bells or a small "room & content" incident)

3) The fire dept. made a determination that after a major fire (often with collapse) that there were no exposure issues and no way to do overhaul (without heavy equipment) and often it was in the best interest of the safety of the members to regroup and wait.

Based on the size of this fire...sounds like #3. so it was not a "Re-Kindle".

I totally agree hence the "...."

[Bnechis 3,961]

How many home owners realize that they're in a non-hydrant area? Of those that do, how many know what exactly that means for their fire protection?

How many are in hydrant areas and will do anything to get rid of them?

[INIT915 1,119]

The cost of a residential sprinkler system in a home of this size and value is negligible.

And how much is that for a house this size, or even a more reasonably sized house?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

And how much is that for a house this size, or even a more reasonably sized house?

$1.61 per square foot in new construction

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/citizens/home_fire_prev/sprinklers/

[dwcfireman 656]

The term "Re-Kindle" should never be used.

How can a fire that is extingushed, "Re-Kindle"? It can not.

When a fire occurs in the same structure hours (or days) later, one of three things has occured:

1) The arrsonest returned to complete the job

2) The fire dept. did a poor job of overhaul and missed something (most common with a smells & bells or a small "room & content" incident)

3) The fire dept. made a determination that after a major fire (often with collapse) that there were no exposure issues and no way to do overhaul (without heavy equipment) and often it was in the best interest of the safety of the members to regroup and wait.

Based on the size of this fire...sounds like #3. so it was not a "Re-Kindle".

Having a heavy background in chemistry and physics, I don't agree with the fact that a fire that has been extinguished cannot re-kindle. You can put the fire out, but if enough heat persists, and the fuel and oxygen is there, something as simple as a light breeze can "re-kindle" that fire.

From you're thorough explanation, however, I do agree that #3 is a good bet. I've done enough surround-and-drowns to know that sometimes the fire can be too stubborn.

[ny10570 745]

If the heat persists then the fire is not out. This is why you leave someone on fire watch when you are unable to effectively overhaul a structure. A properly extinguished fire is exactly that, extinguished. The only place a rekindle makes sense is a mulch pile.

[dwcfireman 656]

Now, more importantly, who has good pictures of the fire?

[BFD1054 1,552]

How many are in hydrant areas and will do anything to get rid of them?

Barry,

I too have seen many a homeowner try to hide or camouflage fire hydrants. This has always concerned me and makes me scratch my head. Hydrants are there for a good reason; the protection (hopefully) of your home, as well as your neighbors.

Now, from a Code Enforcement stand-point, is there any regulations or enforcement in regard to keeping hydrants clear/visable?

[HubEng21 14]

The term "Re-Kindle" should never be used.

How can a fire that is extingushed, "Re-Kindle"? It can not.

When a fire occurs in the same structure hours (or days) later, one of three things has occured:

1) The arrsonest returned to complete the job

2) The fire dept. did a poor job of overhaul and missed something (most common with a smells & bells or a small "room & content" incident)

3) The fire dept. made a determination that after a major fire (often with collapse) that there were no exposure issues and no way to do overhaul (without heavy equipment) and often it was in the best interest of the safety of the members to regroup and wait.

Based on the size of this fire...sounds like #3. so it was not a "Re-Kindle".

Who cares...

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now, from a Code Enforcement stand-point, is there any regulations or enforcement in regard to keeping hydrants clear/visable?

Yes, the NYSUFP&BC requires it. The 1st pic recieved a violation, the hydrant was repainted (yellow) by the water company and "someone" repainted it green again. So he got a court appearance ticket and fined by the courts. Its yellow once again.

[SSweet88MonteSS 0]

This may be a dumb question, but why on God's Green Earth would anyone want to camoflage or otherwise make it more difficult to find a hydrant that happens to be placed in front of their property? Saying nothing of the fact that most likely, the hydrant was there before the homeowner purchased the property (so if it was that much of an eyesore, then why purchase the property at all), but in most cases (or at least in my own case), the close physical proximity of the hydrant to the residence is actually an insurance benefit.

[helicopper 1,050]

$1.61 per square foot in new construction

http://www.usfa.fema...rev/sprinklers/

Double that for the northeast.

National averages seldom reflect our real costs for anything.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I see they are thinking this might have been a lightning strike. What time did the thunderstorm(s) come thru the area and how bad?

Armonk FD had another hosue struck by lightning shortly before this call. No significant outcome though.

[loopy31 12]

The fire departments in North Castle (Armonk, North White Plains and Banksville) have been advocating a residential sprinkler codes for several years. Approximately 5 years ago, the North Castle town board did pass a residental sprinkler code. By the time it went before the New York State Codes Division to pass the more restrictive code, NYSDOS had a issue with some of the language of the local codes and asked for it to be revised.

The most unfortuate part is that when it went back to the Town board to be revised, there was an entirely new town board and they decided not to revise the new code. The FDs in the town have been pushing for the revisions to get passed, it went before the town board again last year. Several chiefs and past chiefs spoke in favor of the residental sprinkler code with all the statistics about the minimal cost to the homeowner. The town board decided to listen to the builders associations instead and tabled it. They haven't brought it back up since......

[grumpyff 1,159]

Double that for the northeast.

National averages seldom reflect our real costs for anything.

So about $3.25 a square foot. I thought I read this house was about 7660 square feet (round up to say 7700x $3.25= $25,025. With a 30 year mortgage that turns out to just $69.51 before interest. Figure about $75 to 80 dollars a month to provide sprinklers in the house. Maybe they should have put them inside instead of watering the grass

[x129K 1,393]

Who cares...

I care.

All too often, I have operated at fires of all types where the IC has been one who preaches and practices, minimum amount of water to put the fire out..and by put the fire out, i mean, once the flame is gone, out...

I myself am somewhat more aggressive...I feel that less damage is done by using enough water to confirm the fire has no threat of reignition, than the damage done by a rekindle. Don't pussyfoot around it....dump the tank and be confident!

I think what Barry wrote should be tattooo'ed to IC's hands as a constant reminder.

Rekindles exist...but I will do everything in MY power to make sure they don't...on MY watch.

[SECTMB 612]

And how much is that for a house this size, or even a more reasonably sized house?

And how much is that for a house this size, or even a more reasonably sized house?

A 'simple' installation can cost about $1.75 per sf. A more complicated installation, like in a McMansion, can cost $3.00 per sf. So if this was a 6,000 sf McMansion, the added cost could be, say $18,000.00. I would imagine in Armonk this was a multi million dollar home. Would the added cost have mattered? Would it have been a deal breaker. I doubt it.

Homes with residential sprinklers, on average, incur half the damage of homes without sprinklers.

While I do not have sprinklers in my home, since I live on a farm in an area without hydrants, the irrigation pump which draws from the canal water system is on its own standby generator and 1-3/4" hose lines are available at the house and the barn. I am also fortunate to be 2 miles equidistant between two paid fire stations. We also have all the buildings protected with lightening arrestors and of course heat and smoke detectors.

But, that doesn't mean I'm immune from a tragedy. If I was building or doing a major renovation, I'd be inclined to add sprinklers.

[antiquefirelt 994]

$1.61 per square foot in new construction

http://www.usfa.fema...rev/sprinklers/

While that number is being thrown around a lot, even most sprinkler advocates have to admit it's no accurate for many/most areas, yet. This may be the average in areas where sprinklers have been mandated for many years, PG Co. MD, Scottsdale AZ, a some others. The places this pricing is accurate in tend not to have unhydranted areas or areas of poor water pressure where other tanks and pumps may be required.

As advocates of home fire sprinklers we warn others to be honest about their costs rather than pitch the lowball number and find that no bids even come close. In our area the systems run about $4-8 per square foot with the larger homes seeing smaller per sqft. prices. One hopes that as more contractors come on line, more cities mandate their use, etc the prices will fall. But be careful using the $1.61 figure publicly as even unintentional misleading will have disastrous affects on credibility. The same goes for telling people they'll save the cost in their insurance, which gives on average (here) 15% off for sprinklers, that only is taken off the fire portion of the policy which is not that large to begin with.

Edited July 7, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[gamewell45 258]

It is just amazing how people can build these multi-million dollar homes in a non hydrant area and not have a sprinkler system. The lawn sprinklers kicked on at one point and worked fine. Here are some photos from the job. http://www.lohud.com...&nclick_check=1

That's why they have insurance.

[Bnechis 3,961]

That's why they have insurance.

Most Americans believe that they will never have a fire and the only reason they have insurance is because the bank requires it to get a morgage.

Insurance never makes you whole. You can't get back what was lost, including the 2-3 years you will be rebuilding (and fighting with the insurance company).

Also, most people are against sprinklers because they do not understand how they work. They think every head goes off with just a little smoke (thanks to hollywood) and that the water damage will be devistating.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Bnechis

[HubEng21 14]

I care.

All too often, I have operated at fires of all types where the IC has been one who preaches and practices, minimum amount of water to put the fire out..and by put the fire out, i mean, once the flame is gone, out...

I myself am somewhat more aggressive...I feel that less damage is done by using enough water to confirm the fire has no threat of reignition, than the damage done by a rekindle. Don't pussyfoot around it....dump the tank and be confident!

I think what Barry wrote should be tattooo'ed to IC's hands as a constant reminder.

Rekindles exist...but I will do everything in MY power to make sure they don't...on MY watch.

Thats not why i said it... I said who cares cause someone said "re-kindle" shouldnt be used. Its a word..... use it if you want.