FDNY Dispatchers...

[x4093k 654]

While doing a swimming event on the Hudson today with 25 other folks, one of the swimmers had a problem, she couldn't see. Now it may sound stupid, but it seriously wasn't. At first she just thought she got lots of sunblock in her eyes and tried rinsing it. But after 15 minutes of trying to see again, it was time to get advanced help. I went over with one of the boats and carefully pulled her onto the vessel. I was with another guy. He said "Ok, i'll call 911" and I said "Ok, tell then we will meet at the 79TH STREET BOAT ACCESS. He called and said it not only once, but 4 different times. Each time with more and more information describing exactly where it was. The dispatcher replied the following.

1st: "Ok, so the boat is in distress?" He replied "No ----"

2nd: "Please hold"

3rd: "So you have an assault victim AT the Boat Area on 89th street?" at this point he was fed up. He said "give me an ambulance to 79th street boat access area, we have a bad situation"

4th: "Ok" and then we told them our phone number and if they need anything call. and then hung up..

After 10 minutes, he recieved another call from them. This time it was a different dispatcher, and they said " your requesting an ambulance to what location?" and he told them AGAIN. So then that one requested an ambulance to the scene, and within 4-5 minutes units were o/s

This just annoyed me because NYC spent loads of money getting the system as best as can be, and this is how it works? I thought it'd be much better than this.

I know some of you FDNY folks, (or not) are gonna say "oh it was one person" yeah it may have been but look at the bill it cost NYC to get the new system, they should be highly trained and ready to get a report and dispatch the appropiate unit.

Any thoughts? This is not meant to bash on the FDNY or NYPD about their dispatchers, it's just sad and more dangerous to have oblivious people answering emergency phone calls. If somebody was in a cardiac arrest or respiratory arrest, and happened to deal with someone like this, the person would most likely be dead or close to it.

Edited July 4, 2012 by x4093k

[x129K 1,393]

It had nothing to do with the FDNY Dispatchers.

The problem lies in the call takers.

[x4093k 654]

Then who? FDNY ambulance got there... Aren't the "Call Takers" dispatchers?

[x129K 1,393]

Nope...but I will refer this one to JBE, as this is his ball game.

He can certainly explain it much better.

[goon16 155]

our dispatchers get the info from the call takers who are civilians who get hours of training compared to the intense training our fd dispatchers get. The UCT system is a joke

[grumpyff 1,159]

911 operators are civillian employees of the police department. Your are lucky they even spoke english

Edited July 2, 2012 by grumpyff

[x4093k 654]

This thread wasn't started to bash on dispatchers or to start a argument. I just wanted some thoughts/information about how people like the one we dealt with today are hired and allowed to answer calls like this. It really does not matter if it's FDNY or not, this should not be permitted. Like I stated above, if there was something real serious like a MVA with ejection or an unresponsive not breathing victim, and the caller got someone like this, they'd be hopeless, wouldn't ya say?

[2231* 20]

lol sorry but that "assault victim" mistake is funny. who knows maybe the swat team and choppers will show up, just to make the day complete !

[wraftery 1,275]

Even if the calltaker was unfamilar with the location of the 79th St Boat Basin, The reporting party called on a cell phone. Doesn't the calltaker have the ability to locate the phone? Not necessarily the calltaker himself, but at least someone with something on a supervisor screen?

[towerladder2 22]

Let me clear this up for you being an FDNY dispatcher.. When you called 911, you were connected with a civilian call taker working for nypd unified call taking system.. This person takes all the information, important and not, and is SUPPOSED to connect the caller to the appropriate agency for the type of emergency... Unfortunately the system is extremely flawed as you have seen first hand.. The person that called you back was probably from FDNY EMS. trying to get the correct information..

This is what we have been fighting Bloomburg and his administration over for years... Millions of dollars pumped into a system that is dangerous to the public.....

[towerladder2 22]

Just to go a step farther... UCT calltakers are given 8 hours of training taking fire department calls.. We go through a three week training period just to answer a telephone. There have been so many errors from dispatching alarms of 3 engines 2 trucks and a chief to a robbery in progress that was sent to us in error, to getting a wrong address causing the death of a fire victim.... So unfortunately your experience is nothing out of the ordinary in the realm of UCT CALLTAKERS....

[everybodygoes 331]

First off if you knew it was the 79th street boat BASIN and not access you would have probably been better off. Secondly, the moment you called 911 you made your first mistake. The only number to call EVER for an emergency and not a crime is 718-999-2222 You will get an individual with a mastery of the English language and who actually gives a $hit about your well being or the person you are calling about. I called 911 once for a PDAA I hung up with the woman on the phone asked me where 233rd St was. Now I just call the real dispatchers and let them forward it over. I have no idea who a guy in the NYPD can listen to these informants I mean dispatchers. If you ever saw these wildebeasts at metrotech you would think you were outside a Social Services Building.

Edited July 2, 2012 by everybodygoes

[x4093k 654]

Even if the calltaker was unfamilar with the location of the 79th St Boat Basin, The reporting party called on a cell phone. Doesn't the calltaker have the ability to locate the phone? Not necessarily the calltaker himself, but at least someone with something on a supervisor screen?

Exactly.. And he even stated "Off of X and X. and the person STILL did not get it.

[towerladder2 22]

Some more info for you.. The ani-ali, which is the location info from calls received gives the nearest cell site that the signal is transmitted from if you use a cell phone.. If we are lucky to get what is called a phase 2 ani-ali, then we get a latitude and longitude.. So when you call 911 from a cell phone, alot of the time, all we have for location is the closest antenna that you hit.. Landlines give the exact address...

[PEMO3 523]

x4093k are you sure you even hit the NYC 911 call center. Lets face it, with cellphones it is a crap shoot as to what jurisdiction gets your call. Hudson River corridor calls can end up routed to the NY or NJ side. I have made many a call on Route 9 only to get Rockland County 911.

[x4093k 654]

x4093k are you sure you even hit the NYC 911 call center. Lets face it, with cellphones it is a crap shoot as to what jurisdiction gets your call. Hudson River corridor calls can end up routed to the NY or NJ side. I have made many a call on Route 9 only to get Rockland County 911.

I am almost positive on that. A dispatcher called back from NYC, so unless they called over and said to call our number, it was NYC. Who knows these folks could be in Japan for all we know

[RWC130 594]

Interesting.... about the call takers.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pr/pr_2012_01_05_psac_911.shtml

[JBE 328]

My boy, TL-2 summed it up quite nicely. You called 911 and got a civilian employee of the PD. To echo what was said here, if you had said 79th Street Boat Basin, you probably would not have had as big of a problem. In all fairness, most of these calltakers are overworked, underpaid, and aren't given the slightest bit of encouragement to learn outside of what they are taught. Not to mention, they do work in a pretty hostile work environment, where every minor screw up is given either a write up, or results in a loss of vacation time or pay. One other thing, depending on the name of the landmark, they can't put it in their system. Remember the shooting at City Hall a number of years back?? They couldn't put CITY HALL into their CAD. They can't put the bridges in for the most part. They need cross streets. If you had said, Hudson River and 79th Street that would have also helped.

They weren't trained properly in taking fire calls, and still screw stuff up on a pretty consistent basis. When you call 911 in NYC, you get the PD Calltaker who enters the information, sends it to the FDNY CAD/EMS CAD through a link, then conference calls you in to either us, or EMS. We take the info, basically to make sure PD didn't screw it up, and update the incident.

Now, here is the difference between us and them. They have folks who are nothing but professional call takers, who have it beaten into their heads to take calls at face value. They are not allowed to use common sense, and any inkling of common sense is quickly discouraged. Prior to UCT, you have no idea how many calls we disregarded, or told the caller the FDNY was not responding because it wasn't a fire department issue. Not so with UCT, they send us EVERYTHING!!!! I'm not going to give examples. One of the other disadvantages, is when you call 911 is that it isn't borough specific. They take calls for the whole city. I've worked most of my career between the Bronx and Manhattan, and I was born and kinda raised in Queens, and even I don't know all the streets. Although through out my experience, if I hear a street I am not familiar with, I can either ask my colleagues, or ask what borough it's in and have an idea of where it is. The way the building is set up, I spent sometime right in between EMS and PD, and overheard a lot of the operators. I remember one night recently, the calltaker kept repeating Bronx River Road and Nereid. I looked at her supervisor and said, Why don't you put in Webster Avenue and Nereid, or Webster and the City Line. I got ignored for a good two minutes.

We are not allowed to have professional call takers. We train our dispatchers to do everything. This takes up to 10 weeks of training. If one of my guys on a call doesn't know where something is, there is a strong possibility someone on my platform does.

If you need the FDNY or an Ambulance, the proper number to call in the boroughs are:

Manhattan 212-999-2222

Bronx 718-999-3333

Brooklyn 718-999-4444

Queens 718-999-5555

SI 718-999-6666

One of my dispatchers will answer the phone, and we will get you what you need.

Edited July 2, 2012 by JBE

[JBE 328]

And Rob, just to add. That article is a total sham. That system took years for them to get working. It's not as great as the city makes it out to be. It may work well at 60 Control, or at Putnam 911, but I personally don't like it. It only has a few advantages to it that I have seen in three years working it. The phone system is the only thing that all three agencies are using. And, I don't think the EMS Calltakers are using the new phone system. We aren't working on the same technology. It cost millions to develop a link that we could get stuff directly from PD. The Starfire CAD is pushing 40, the NYPD CAD is almost as old, and I think EMS CAD is maybe 10 or 15 years old. The phone mapping program is a nice touch. That's about it. Downtown has already used the phone system to stick it to my co workers, because we can see who is taking calls, and who is supposedly not answering.

Yes, there are some advantages to us being on the same floor, like if I have an issue with something or someone over at EMS, or vice versa, I can go over and talk to them face to face. And it's not far for me to go if I have to deal with someone from PD, although that might get me in trouble. Don't believe anything that comes out of the mouth of Bloomberg or the many people who shill for him. Including Commissioners Kelly and Cassano(who, btw, does not like dispatchers and lied to the City Council in 2009 that the unified call taker system worked.)

Edited July 2, 2012 by JBE

[grumpyff 1,159]

In all fairness, most of these calltakers are overworked, underpaid, and aren't given the slightest bit of encouragement to learn outside of what they are taught. Not to mention, they do work in a pretty hostile work environment, where every minor screw up is given either a write up, or results in a loss of vacation time or pay. One other thing, depending on the name of the landmark, they can't put it in their system. Remember the shooting at City Hall a number of years back?? They couldn't put CITY HALL into their CAD. They can't put the bridges in for the most part. They need cross streets. If you had said, Hudson River and 79th Street that would have also helped.

They weren't trained properly in taking fire calls, and still screw stuff up on a pretty consistent basis. When you call 911 in NYC, you get the PD Calltaker who enters the information, sends it to the FDNY CAD/EMS CAD through a link, then conference calls you in to either us, or EMS. We take the info, basically to make sure PD didn't screw it up, and update the incident.

Now, here is the difference between us and them. They have folks who are nothing but professional call takers, who have it beaten into their heads to take calls at face value. They are not allowed to use common sense, and any inkling of common sense is quickly discouraged.

JBE, in a nutshell you just described the NYPD to a T. From commisioner right down to some sergeants.

[Steve 78]

I recently called in a MVA on the Bronx River Pkwy, just north of the Cross Bronx Expwy. After giving the location, the call taker asked me to confirm what boro this was in.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This is a problem that happens whenever you try and "force" a system where a single call taker will answer for all 3 agencies Police, EMS and Fire. Fire is usually the last one added into this group and is given the least traininig.

Think about this..in most cases, not all, but in many cases Fire and EMS emergencies are happening in the "now", maybe 90% of all calls. "My house is on fire", "my car is on fire", "something just blew up", "my co-worker just colapsed", "I cant breath" and so on..... On the other hand most Police emergencies have "already happened". "My purse was stolen", "someone just hit my car" "I came home and my house was robbed", and so on.

Speed and accuracy is very important to fire and ems calltaking. This skill takes some time to develop. There is an art to just listening. Many callers give you everything you need to dispatch units within the first sentence spoken. As is the case many times the calltakers do not hve the training nor do they understand the differences and nuances of fire dispatching and call taking.

I recall a situation in MD I think a few years back where some firefighters were almost killed. When the investigation ended, the calltaker was disciplined because She took to long on the phone call. The neighbor was calling in a working house fire next door to their home. The caller clearly stated their address and thet the house next door was on fire. The calltaker, a PD cross over, started to ask can you get me the house address, what color is the house, what are the owners names, are you sure it is on fire and a host of other non important information needed to dispatch the FD. She did not have the proper training or knowledge in FD call taking.

FDNY dispatch is a great organization with a long history. It's a shame this situation is giving them an unwanted black eye at times.

[comical115 32]

...this explains a lot.

The last phone call *was* from an FDNY EMS dispatcher because when I asked him if he had a better description of the boat, he said "as per the text ...it's big...".

After he made the call, I had a description of the boat, an update on the patient and exactly where the operator intended on docking the boat... I wish this were an isolated issue.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Its just as bad on the PD side. We get calls with important info missing. Robberies in progress,with no mention of weapons involved. Jobs with vague locations (I work in transit, so we often jobs like "robbery in progress on the northbound 6 train" with no station given. Aided cases (EMS calls) with no description of whats wrong, etc.

[JBE 328]

grumpy, we've been getting that too. Just calls coming in with nothing but a location and a PD 10-Code. I will give one that I had to laugh about. Because, to PD, EVERYTHING is a haz mat job. Comes over as a haz mat incident. Strong smell coming from a dumpster. It's 85 degrees at 1030 in the morning with 53% humidity. HOT GARBAGE!!!! One I didn't laugh about, and actually made the papers. Water condition, basement apartment. Truck company comes in, "Get us an Engine and EMS, her water broke, she's having a baby."

[everybodygoes 331]

Now what self respecting truckie would call an Engine to deliver a baby! Just lay out the cleanest bunker coat in the group and get ready to catch! I have to tell you guys, no one does a better job at dispatching then the FDNY. No one! I just wish we could get more info on our MDT then UCT-911 and an intersection sometimes. PD Communications is so lazy that its a cultural thing over there. Seriously, one day on my way to Medicals I took a picture of them congregating out front and the largest comes at me says what you doin'? I said showing my friends on the other side why they cant ever get good information! Needless to say I can run a lot faster then she could throw her newport at me and her cup of coffee.

[10512 214]

There are more than a few problems with the NYPD system. The dispatchers/call takers are underpaid and over worked. But there are other problems. One poster mentioned a call taker not knowing where 233 street was, the problem with that is you have to know if it is East 233 or West 233 St. The computer will not accept it without the correct prefix.

The calls are not borough specific, a call from the Bronx does not get answered by a Bronx dispatcher, it gets answered by the next console thatis up. This person may not be familiar with the area. The call taker may be born and raised in Queens and may have never been to Bronx, and would have no idea that 233 needs a E or W. I am using 233 and the Bronx as an example, but there are other similar problems in other boroughs.

Take some of the streets in Manhattan, the numbered streets need an E or W, depending on which side of 5 ave. it is on.There is only one 58 St and Broadway, but the computer will only take W 58 and Broadway. But, go to Brooklyn, some of those streets may sound like Manhattan streets, you can have 58 Street and 3 ave and there is no E or W. for that street. If the dispatcher was not familiar with Brooklyn, they may think that the caller is in Manhattan and assume they are at E 58 Street and 3 Ave on the eastside, but that is not the case. But then there are some numbered streets in Brooklyn that do have E or W prefixes.

Confused about NYC? Lets not even talk about Queens, is it 79 St, 79 Ave, or 79 Pl?

If you get a caller that is not specific, and you get a dispatcher that is not familiar with the area, you can see what could happen.

If it is a landline phone, ani-ali will give the location and the problems are not as big.

This is only part of the problem. The system is broke and has been for a while.

Edited July 2, 2012 by 10512

[ny10570 745]

The system could easily function in its current form if the city would just invest in proper training for the call takers and get the proper dispatch software. Get a call type and location and the call should be handled by the proper dispatchers. My GPS can figure out that when I'm in manhattan and type 34 & broadway I'm probably looking for E 34 & Broadway in Manhattan. The system needs to integrate with cell phone gps cootdinates and not just list them in the call text. Then when an address doesn't come close to the call location it can be double checked. Like the Trauma at e 13 and 3rd av yesterday was a typo that should have read e 103 and 3rd av. The cell tower was on 104th st.

[JBE 328]

There are more than a few problems with the NYPD system. The dispatchers/call takers are underpaid and over worked. But there are other problems. One poster mentioned a call taker not knowing where 233 street was, the problem with that is you have to know if it is East 233 or West 233 St. The computer will not accept it without the correct prefix.

The calls are not borough specific, a call from the Bronx does not get answered by a Bronx dispatcher, it gets answered by the next console thatis up. This person may not be familiar with the area. The call taker may be born and raised in Queens and may have never been to Bronx, and would have no idea that 233 needs a E or W. I am using 233 and the Bronx as an example, but there are other similar problems in other boroughs.

Take some of the streets in Manhattan, the numbered streets need an E or W, depending on which side of 5 ave. it is on.There is only one 58 St and Broadway, but the computer will only take W 58 and Broadway. But, go to Brooklyn, some of those streets may sound like Manhattan streets, you can have 58 Street and 3 ave and there is no E or W. for that street. If the dispatcher was not familiar with Brooklyn, they may think that the caller is in Manhattan and assume they are at E 58 Street and 3 Ave on the eastside, but that is not the case. But then there are some numbered streets in Brooklyn that do have E or W prefixes.

Confused about NYC? Lets not even talk about Queens, is it 79 St, 79 Ave, or 79 Pl?

If you get a caller that is not specific, and you get a dispatcher that is not familiar with the area, you can see what could happen.

If it is a landline phone, ani-ali will give the location and the problems are not as big.

This is only part of the problem. The system is broke and has been for a while.

Amen!!! This is one of the biggest advantages FDNY Dispatchers have over PD. Although with the calltakers, we aren't as borough specific as we used to be, because of the new phone system.

EG, it's not a cultural thing, trust me. You should come by sometime to 11MT when I'm working and I will show you some of the comments/text that PD puts in. They sometimes put in a novel, other times, they keep it very brief. More than anything, it's a lot of misspelling/bad grammar. I wouldn't recommend hanging around looking for trouble, Newports and coffee cups fly on a regular basis over there, and yes there have been fistfights between PD operators and EMS operators. Then, a few from PD beating each other up. Quite entertaining. A few have stepped to my guys, and the situations have been quickly defused.

10570, I don't know if you read the 911/CPR report that came out recently about the failures of the 911 system in the city. They did recommend a number of changes, and a few other things where most of us on all three sides of the equation said, "Well, no $%^&!!!" It's just a question of how long it takes to get implemented. FDNY Communications Management(The Idiots on the 7th Floor at 9MT) got raked over the coals for the way that training/continuing education is done on our end. Practically non-existent. Not to mention memorandums and directives so vaguely worded that it's easy to make a mistake because someone else disagrees with your actions.

Edited July 2, 2012 by JBE

[ny10570 745]

JBE, I read the edited version. Never saw the full. One thing that kills me with communications is we have a group of people that handle calls efficiently, with extremely few errors, and have repeatedly been recognized for their competence and performance. The fire dispatchers do their job extremely well. It would be cheaper to properly compensate and train 1 person to take these calls than with the current system of teo people. Not mention the time saved with getting the proper resources going to the proper address.

Most if the gripes with the system are not fire, ems, or PD specific. Its simple things like correct addresses and actually listening and interpreting what the caller says. "Mle caller sts was jumped under train" is not a trauma call requiring engines, ladders, a squad, rescue, bls, als, ESU, transit, and a handfull of supervisors. It was a male assaulted that needed an RMP and BLS.