New York State OFPC Best Practices

[Bnechis 3,961]

You are assuming EVERYONE only has just the minimum amount of training. Would you allow two probies to go in to a fire with just 40 hours of training? I didn't think so. You have senior members showing them what and how to do it.

We do not allow them to go in till they have 480 hours of training and then they are attached at the hip to an officer. Last week there was a thread asking how do you get the Sr. Members to train and teach the younger guys. And I am not assuming, I have read enough stats on the numbers of students taking FF1 vs. other classes. Last I looked it was 3 or 4 FF1 to one of all other classes combined. WHat does that say...it says that an overwhellming number of people are at the minimum, particularly when we know some individules are going to every class they can.

And how often do you encounter water reactive materials on a daily basis? Maybe a bit of magnesium in a car fire here or there, but eventually the water puts that out too.

Its not often, but failing to understand it can be catistrophic. I remember an incident in New England where the 1st alarm started pooring water on a truck fire. As the Chief was being loaded into the ambulance he advised the 2nd alarm chief that maybe they did not use enough water (3 2.5" handlines). So the 2nd chief ordered deck guns and ladder pipes. The toxic cloud got even bigger and a large area of that city needed to be evacuated.

You may never have to handle a hazmat related fire or leak, but the one time you do, you had better get it right.

And I would much rather have a guy who has the minimum training and the wits and common sense over the guy who takes every class in the world and can't figure out how to change the blade on the roof saw. Everyone over complicates this job, and in the last ten years it has become ridiculous in the amount of BS you need. 90% of the class material could be done online, with the practical evolutions done in 5 or 6 nights and a saturday. Make things easier for people not harder.

Yes the guy with common sense over class hours is better, but 1) you do not get that choice and 2) I hear from a lot of instructors and they all say that its rare to find new recruits with common sense.

The last 10 years? Try the last 30, it just took 20 to close the bars enough before many saw the changes had already been there. I agree that more could be done online, but the hours for hands on is a joke and needs to be a seriously reconsidered.

They even cut the hours on EMT cause they knew no one could commit to the amount of hours.

You have that backwards. NYS DOH in April announced the minimums will increase.

http://www.health.ny...rds_transition/

Transitioning to the National Educational Standards

These sheets must be used for all courses taking the NYS Written Certification Exam on or after December 20, 2012.

A general synopsis of the changes are:

National Emergency Medical Responder (EMR) will be the NYS CFR with some modifications. Estimated hours = 48 - 60

National Emergency Medical Technician will be the NYS EMT with some modifications. Estimated hours = 150 - 190

National Advanced Emergency Medical Technician (AEMT) will replace the NYS Intermediate. Estimated hours = 160 - 200

NYS Critical Care (CC) will not change for now. This course will stay as-is.

National Paramedic will be the NYS Paramedic. Estimated hours = 1000 - 1200

CFR and EMT will be tested on the new Educational Standards beginning with the December 20, 2012 exam.

AEMT and Paramedic will be tested on the new Educational Standards beginning with the May 23, 2013 exam.

[everybodygoes 331]

Those are the recommended hours set by DOT and thats the NR standard. The more you add the less you will have showing up. I have been fortunate to volunteer with some real go getters that understand what needs to be done and this is in age range from 18-50, which is quite remarkable. When dealing with people donating their time its always in the best interest to keep things as short as possible. How hard would it be though to have an online training class for the NIOSH Haz Mat guide, which I have never seen outside of work, and the DOT ERG book? If you took each locality and allowed them to interject their own training issues in to what they deem is acceptable you will have the real stuff covered and all the fluff that is included excluded. I have taught haz mat and its boring and most guys forget 90% of it, but when you have someone who knows how to related to the lowest IQ it makes it comprehensible to all of your audience.

I have instructor II and if it was worth what I had to sit through to get it they should have had you teach real issues rather than make lesson plans that in the real world make no sense. In essence the best kind of training is done one on one, which you could achieve online, with a captive audience and no distractions things go much easier and in to the ole noggin. I remember the old blood borne class I had to take that was on the computer, you retained so much of it, cause A, you had to take it to get on the rig, and B, the faster you completed it, the faster you were home on the couch!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Those are the recommended hours set by DOT and thats the NR standard. The more you add the less you will have showing up.

No DOH has already told instructors to include this in your class outline that must be submitted for approval. And that NR standard is the standard set by the academy in accordance with state law. Our standard includes more than that.

When dealing with people donating their time its always in the best interest to keep things as short as possible.

Wrong, its in the best interest to keep it interesting and they will stay and keep coming back for more. Why is this only an issue in NYS? Why is it that other states can do it?

Could it be that we are more interested in quantity than quality? Ask any of the instructors at Westchester (or elsewhere) how many newbies they see who should not even be there?

How hard would it be though to have an online training class for the NIOSH Haz Mat guide, which I have never seen outside of work, and the DOT ERG book? If you took each locality and allowed them to interject their own training issues in to what they deem is acceptable you will have the real stuff covered and all the fluff that is included excluded. I have taught haz mat and its boring and most guys forget 90% of it, but when you have someone who knows how to related to the lowest IQ it makes it comprehensible to all of your audience.

I have instructor II and if it was worth what I had to sit through to get it they should have had you teach real issues rather than make lesson plans that in the real world make no sense.

The law does require that your dept. trains its people and does not require you to use the state. Since you are an instructor and have only seen it at work, then why have you not made it up for your dept.?

If its so boring, then its time to rethink your delivery. I have shown my students what hapens when you mix oxidzers and fuels, what happens to firefighters fingers when they contact cryogenics, make them use there brains to figure out what the problem infront of them is. And most important, staying away from the exotic materials that they may never see. How many firefighters really understand gasoline, fuel oil, natural gas, propane, carbon monoxide and chlorine? Thats what is out there and they will deal with them regularly and often they dont understand them. Yes its hard to convince a firefighter that he is going to respond to a leak of ethel methal death and not just stand back and wait for the county hazmat team.

[everybodygoes 331]

Frankly after giving my time for almost 20 years for free and all the suggestions falling on deaf ears I have given up, if someone wants to know something I tell them, otherwise they are on their own. I have in two many instances had to correct a dangerous act to be told this isnt NYC and apparently the laws of physics change above the Bronx line. I don't think you volunteer, you just teach them, it is a completely different animal.

[Dinosaur 844]

Frankly after giving my time for almost 20 years for free and all the suggestions falling on deaf ears I have given up, if someone wants to know something I tell them, otherwise they are on their own. I have in two many instances had to correct a dangerous act to be told this isnt NYC and apparently the laws of physics change above the Bronx line. I don't think you volunteer, you just teach them, it is a completely different animal.

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.

We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.

We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.

There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!

Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.

Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

[JM15 386]

If you've given up, get the hell out of the classroom. I've sat in classes taught by instructors that have "given up" and they usually suck! The best classes, and those that fill up the fastest, are taught by people with passion for the subject and their job as the instructor and more than just a little knowledge/experience. If you've got the knowledge and experience, dig up some passion and keep trying to educate the youth in the fire service. You may not be able to change the minds of other dinosaurs like me but we're not the ones that you have to pass the baton to.

We've all banged our heads against rock walls when people simply refuse to change or adapt. But as I read this thread you're doing the same thing. You're saying that we can't increase the standard because volunteers simply don't have the time and we should further water down our training and make it on-line. Most on-line training sucks. Most people don't actually train, they just look for the answers to the test questions and their fancy certificate. That's not training.

We need to cut the BS and establish a real standard for FF training in NY. Virtually every other state has done it and we can too. There's no reason for career FF to have one standard and volunteer FF to have another (that may not even be enforced). The time has come to do away with this interior/exterior crap and make everyone a firefighter. Can't do it? Fine, we'll find some other role for you but it won't be called firefighter. We've been whittling away at this stuff for too long and it makes me sick.

There's one standard for everyone else. Cop, EMT, paramedic, barber, cosmetologist. All one standard. FF, there's nothing. Unless you're a career FF and you have to meet the 229 regs. Other states do it, we can to. We just have to stop making excuses and start making changes!

Let's say the standard is 400 hours to be designated a firefighter. There's no reason why you can't break that down into courses that volunteers can take on a part-time schedule.

Time to stop the nonsense and start fixing this problem!

I wish I could "like" this more than once!!

[wraftery 1,275]

Where this thread went shows us how irrational fire service people can be.

If there no plan for All to follow, we are all going in different directions.

Say, isn't that partially why FDNY established a career department?

[everybodygoes 331]

Right, if you increase the amount of hours you will have a standard that will be uniform, that will have no one doing.

[mstrang1 213]

Right, if you increase the amount of hours you will have a standard that will be uniform, that will have no one doing.

Is NYS an alternate reality universe? A lot of other states require equal training whether you get a paycheck or not. Why should NYS VFFs be so "special" as to require less training? Are they super firefighters right out of the box?

[ohbdow1 6]

FF1 has 16 hours of HazMat (Opertions Level). Not taught in 3 hours. Delivered in 4, 4 hour units. It is also delivered as a stand alone. No one was told to teach 16 hours in 3. If you sit for the National FF1 Exam, there is a large portion on HazMat and if you do not score high enough in that section you fail the entire test. Minimum Levels of Instruction are being met and they are being tested. The first skill for the FF1 exam is a HazMat written skill based on the ERG. By no means is this saying that training should not be the same, just that the FF1 is designed around the National Standard.

Most Volunteers if they are into it realize this:

FF1 -they trained me to get in

FFS - they trained me to get out

Building Construction Classes - Know my enemy

Truck Company - hone my skills

FF2 - Develop leadership

FAST- Help my brothers and sisters out

Fire Officer - Realize that FF1 is about two weeks long and now with a weeks training I am risking their lives

This is not a long list, if you are interested, add these hours up and see how close you come to the 229. You might be surprised. And it does not include what the 229 outlines with your own P&P and 15 hours initial and 8 hours in-service.

What happened since EF? OSHA (PESH in NY), why, because we were not trained enough and killed ourselves. What happened after that NFPA, why, because we still killed ourselves. We (the fire service as a whole) never policed ourselves. We put that helmet on and the cloak of invincibility protected us on every run....until it didn't. We fell off the back steps, we did not wear packs, we did not pay attention to the changes in building construction nor have a voice in the matter.

If you do not train everyday, if we do not learn something everyday, we need to find another line of work. Not for you, for your brother and sister that needs you to be in it, always.

Just a thought.

[JM15 386]

I took FF1 in 2005ish and there was no way there was 16 hours of Hazmat in that class. We spent at most a saturday morning on it... The total hours for the class is around 80ish hours right now so how can you fit a true 16 hours of hazmat into that and still cover all of the other topics?

[ohbdow1 6]

2004 FF1 was 87 hours, 2007 (Re-write) 91 hours. Both had Awareness (4 hours) and Operations (12 hours). I can't speak to your short change, but you do make the point that this is only BASIC FF training. It is entry level. We risk their lives with little over two weeks of training. That was my point about the continued courses. Also, if you sit in the front right seat of the rig you need 24 hours as found in 1910.120 .

1910.120(q)(6)(v)

On scene incident commander. Incident commanders, who will assume control of the incident scene beyond the first responder awareness level, shall receive at least 24 hours of training equal to the first responder operations level and in addition have competency in the following areas and the employer shall so certify:

1910.120(q)(6)(v)(A)

Know and be able to implement the employer's incident command system.

1910.120(q)(6)(v)(

Know how to implement the employer's emergency response plan.

1910.120(q)(6)(v)©

Know and understand the hazards and risks associated with employees working in chemical protective clothing.

1910.120(q)(6)(v)(D)

Know how to implement the local emergency response plan.

1910.120(q)(6)(v)(E)

Know of the state emergency response plan and of the Federal Regional Response Team.

<a name="1910.120(q)(6)(v)(F)">1910.120(q)(6)(v)(F)

Know and understand the importance of decontamination procedures.

Good thread.....

[Remember585 815]

Right, if you increase the amount of hours you will have a standard that will be uniform, that will have no one doing.

I whole-heartedly disagree with you, with all due respect of course.

Those that want to really, REALLY do something in their life will find the time and make it happen. People with disabilities overcome them and go on to be successful athletes, right?

To say if you increase the training standards for firefighters is going to result in less new people, I disagree. If you think it's going to cause senior guys who don't think they need this to pack it in, then so be it. They did their time, probably fighting more fires than most of us or future generations will. Everyone is so afraid that losing some members is going to destroy their departments - what kind of department do you have if everyone is satisfied being minimally trained? Let me know if you're one of these departments so we know not to call you Mutual Aid. Luckily, most of the departments near us go above and beyond the minimal expectations of the volunteer fire service.

[Bnechis 3,961]

2004 FF1 was 87 hours, 2007 (Re-write) 91 hours.

After a quick look at other states this was what I found:

New Hampshire 212 Hours

Florida - 206 Hours

Indianna - 180 Hours

Texas - 264 Hours (recommended) Note: career minimum 468 hours

Maryland - 108 Hours Note there Hazmat Ops is 24 hours

VA - 115 Hours

Illinois - 330 Hours Note there Hazmat Ops is 24 hours

[everybodygoes 331]

I whole-heartedly disagree with you, with all due respect of course.

Those that want to really, REALLY do something in their life will find the time and make it happen. People with disabilities overcome them and go on to be successful athletes, right?

To say if you increase the training standards for firefighters is going to result in less new people, I disagree. If you think it's going to cause senior guys who don't think they need this to pack it in, then so be it. They did their time, probably fighting more fires than most of us or future generations will. Everyone is so afraid that losing some members is going to destroy their departments - what kind of department do you have if everyone is satisfied being minimally trained? Let me know if you're one of these departments so we know not to call you Mutual Aid. Luckily, most of the departments near us go above and beyond the minimal expectations of the volunteer fire service.

Guys that already meet the current standard will not be required as it is now to attain this new level. If you did that you would see the membership really drop!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Guys that already meet the current standard will not be required as it is now to attain this new level. If you did that you would see the membership really drop!

No, you wouldn't.

[JM15 386]

Guys that already meet the current standard will not be required as it is now to attain this new level. If you did that you would see the membership really drop!

Do you think that people would rather leave then take a 4 night class?

FYI for anyone who is interested the county is offering a Hazmat Operations class starting in October... it is 4 nights long.

http://emergencyservices.westchestergov.com/training-classes

[Bnechis 3,961]

Do you think that people would rather leave then take a 4 night class?

If they are not willing to take a few classes do you need them in the 1st place?

[Remember585 815]

Once someone stops training, it's time for them to retire.

[xchief2x 79]

Personally I think there should only be 1 training standard for all firefighters. I didn't use the word minimum simply because I firmly believe that in no way, shape or form you should be happy with the minimum. I currently have 40 years in my department and the only reason I have not been to our training center in a year or two is because I have pretty much taken all the courses offered that I care to take. I still participate in department training, albeit not as much as I would like as of late. In closing one of our senior members whom had a great deal of respect once told me that when you think you know everything it is time to get out before you hurt or kill yourself or someone else! These are words I live by!

Just my humble opinion.

[everybodygoes 331]

You guys must have nothing else in life but the firehouse. Most places have monthly drills for people to train, if you start to make mandatory attendance you will lose guys cause people have lives besides this. You have to find a happy medium or you will drive guys away. You should hear the crying at work when guys have to go to the rock!

[xchief2x 79]

^{I do have plenty of other things to do,but because I have a very understanding wife I make time to train.}

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Monthly drills? Wallingford does them weekly. We underwent a voluntary OSHA audit and now all trainings are entered into a database. If you miss an OSHA required annual training (IE: Bloodborne, Hazard Communications, Confined Space, HAZMAT, SCBA, etc) you are off the trucks until you come in and make it up. Period, end of story, no negotiations.

So far, no major problems. Because we've outlined the expectations and the consequences for not following them, and our guys have met those expectations. The only members we've lost as a result are the ones that never wanted to learn anything in the first place.

Edited August 17, 2012 by SageVigiles

[drgripsthrowawaytowel 72]

You guys must have nothing else in life but the firehouse. Most places have monthly drills for people to train, if you start to make mandatory attendance you will lose guys cause people have lives besides this. You have to find a happy medium or you will drive guys away. You should hear the crying at work when guys have to go to the rock!

Monthly drills? Drill for 12 days a year, at maybe pushing 3 hours a drill? 36 hours of drill time a year? That's freaking pathetic. I'm sure you don't have 100% attendance at all the drills either.

Quit making excuses as to why training isn't required. Sack up and train more. Require it, and see your members go from looking like C league squad rookies, to a well oiled machine.

Edit:

Would you rather look like this: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEEQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRhD_5T4F7aw&ei=Z4guUIGELKPuyAGEzIDIBA&usg=AFQjCNEocq5T5DqbhCmC9CdU0xt6Im0fBQ&sig2=jJbg6SCPJM7Xja_oigXe3Q

or like this: http://statter911.com/2011/03/15/helmet-cam-durham-north-carolina-house-fire/

The difference is constant training, retraining, and training on top of the training. Don't get dead out there because of your attitude.

Edited August 17, 2012 by drgripsthrowawaytowel

[Bnechis 3,961]

Most places have monthly drills for people to train, if you start to make mandatory attendance you will lose guys cause people have lives besides this. You have to find a happy medium or you will drive guys away.

Then its time to re-evaluate the members. If they are unwilling to train enough they are of no use. GET RID OF THEM. CLOSE THE DEPT., IF NEEDED and recruit or hire firefighters....because what you are describing are wanabees.

I wana have turnouts so I can impress myself or someone else.

I wana have a blue light so I can impress myself or someone else.

I wana stand outside someones home and shoot water at it as it burns to the ground so I can feel proud that I'm "helpping"

I wana die a "hero" so I can impress someone, because I do not know enough to operate at a fire, but they gave me turnouts and call me a firefighter.

[Remember585 815]

To be fair to everyone that joins, or for that matter, gets hired by a fire department - we should lay it all on the line the second they come to us. Let them know that they are expected to participate in xx amount of drills, xx amount of courses, etc. Let them know that if they don't come around to learn, that they will lose their privileges (freeloads at the volley house, OT details at work, etc.) and the respect of their colleagues. Of course you won't get through to the cement-heads, but if you set precedence up front, they can't claim they didn't know...

...A mistake I am sure most of us have made.

I am sure there's guys in my department counting down the days until I am out. But the number of people that call, text, email and talk to me asking how they can get in a class, when we're doing a drill, etc. far exceeds that number. (I think / hope).

As Aristole said, "Men acquire a particular quality by constantly acting in a particular way." If we keep training to do our jobs, we'll become excellent at it when we need to be.

[JM15 386]

After a quick look at other states this was what I found:

New Hampshire 212 Hours

Florida - 206 Hours

Indianna - 180 Hours

Texas - 264 Hours (recommended) Note: career minimum 468 hours

Maryland - 108 Hours Note there Hazmat Ops is 24 hours

VA - 115 Hours

Illinois - 330 Hours Note there Hazmat Ops is 24 hours

When I went to college in NH I was trying to get reciprocity for my NY certs for a PT job. I went to the state fire academy and met with one of the deputies... When he saw how many hours were on my FF1 & 2 certs he laughed then was shocked that was our minimum.

[everybodygoes 331]

or like this: http://statter911.co...ina-house-fire/

The difference is constant training, retraining, and training on top of the training. Don't get dead out there because of your attitude.

Nice video but what is your point? Put two men in danger for a garbage house that is unoccupied to cut a roof that served really no purpose since you cant vent the actual fire room?

[JTF429 37]

Not to start an argument, but I have to ask if Everybodygoes is really a fireman? If so and you are actualy an Instructor, you really need to go. No disrespect but are you really listening to yourself? I work as a career firefighter in a fairly busy department, I also volunteer in my hometown. If members don't want to train, we don't need them. It is really that simple. If nobody volunteers than my taxes go up, but at least the people who show up are trained. Yes the fire department is my life and has been for 26 years. Why, because I still have passion for the job. I am an Instructor who teaches the same reguardless of them being volunteers or career recruits. To correct you on your EMS quote, the 60 hours DOH added is not a recomendation, it starts in my class next Tuesday. NYS needs to get in line with other states, and I think that is what they are trying to work towards. We just finished a FF1 class over 3 weeks, the 3 hottest weeks. These students busted their humps. You would think they won the lotto at the end, so much so that half of them went right into a week long FF2 class right after. Every single one of them signed up for the FF1 National Cert exam in September. You teach a good class they will come. Good Luck to you, hopefully you find happiness somewhere.

[SSweet88MonteSS 0]

I agree with all of the above (except the certain obvious points). Training is the name of the game. You never stop training, and if you do, then it's time to hang up the helmet.

Failure to train is training to fail, no exceptions.