Thermal Imaging Camera's

[57truck 1]

Almost every department in Westchester has a Thermal Imaging Camera and some have multiple's in their department. What do you think about this technology which was developed. I love the thermal camera, however you cant use it for everything. My dept. has an Bullard MX camera and i personally believe that its a great camera. Has any1 experienced any problems with TIC's, or have any other input on the camera's

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The biggest problem with the advancement of thermal cameras and introduction into the fire service has been the utter disregard for detailed training before putting the unit in service. I've heard chiefs from various agencies in the county sum the use of a camera up as basically point and shoot, which couldn't be dangerously farther from the truth for both firefighters and our customers. On top of it, throw in the bells and whistles that get added on, and what you can end up with is a firefighter whom develops information overload which can end up with a lose of senses and direction. Couple that with the possibility of a young moderately or inexperienced firefighter and that could end in trouble. I've heard people with the camera in their hands saying this is red hot, and that's red hot, not realizing that the type of camera they have doesn't distinguish temperature by shade variance. Or when I did a training session, that victims may not appear "white" or red, but actually cooler then their surroundings, or even scarier similiar to the ambient temperature around, them. The point? Primary searches should not be done by thermal camera, but in tandem with good, quick physical searches.

[Guest JQP442]

I think that we will all agree that a TI camera will not do everything for us, but it does help with some things. Probably the best thing that I have seen it used for is checking for extension in the walls and ceiling. No more having to rip an entire room apart just to be sure. No don’t get me wrong; I am NOT saying that we should depend on the camera alone, we still need to use some common sense. I smoke is coming out of the wall and it feel hot to your hand, but the camera is saying that it is 'cool', I am going to assume that the camera is wrong. There are other things that the camera can be used for as well. I know that my dept has been called out to help the PD look for a missing child in a heavily wooded area. It was a cool night and you couldn’t see but the child’s body temp would be sufficient to get a reading and help get to the kid. Can also be good for a doorstop if needed.

[Guest DFFD227]

Yonkers Police Department will be getting a brand new thermal imaging camera. I saw it first hand, and it looks really neat. It's very small, and can put it in a simple carry bag. I'm not sure what brand it is, but i'll try to find out.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Thermal imagers are a great tool used properly, whether it be for fire, search & rescue or haz-mat. The problem lies in traning the responders to use it correctly.

When using the TI you can't rely on the image alone. You still must use all of your previous training to be safe (using your other sences, reading smoke, etc.) Too many times I see and hear stories of firefighters getting tunnel vision while using a TI.

SAFE-IR is a great training program for TI use. It's a two day program that provides both classroom and hands on, live fire training. They can cater the training to manufacture specific cameras.

We currently have three thermal imagers. Two Bullard T3 Max's and one helmet mounted FLIR. There are plans on getting two more Bullards. One will be TI Commander (which recently replaced the TIx). This will go on the new rescue truck currently in the works. We're also considering getting another T3 Max within the next year or so.

[x635 4,066]

Yonkers Police Department will be getting a brand new thermal imaging camera. I saw it first hand, and it looks really neat. It's very small, and can put it in a simple carry bag. I'm not sure what brand it is, but i'll try to find out.

TIC's can be useful for PD and EMS applications as well. Searching for perps (I think I saw on Cops a few times some helicopters actually use this technology), locating the position of barricaded perps, as well (EMS and PD-wise) as looking for ejected vicitms and missing children.

[BFD1054 1,552]

x635, i actually remember an MVA i think back in the summer where Greenville and Yonkers were operating. If i remember correctly, the MVA was on Jackson Ave. in the area of the SBP. Anyway, it was a serious MVA w/ejection. I believe Greenville used thier TIC and located a victim that was ejected into a wooded area. I have to say that i was quite impressed that during such an incident, somebody had thier head on to think to use a TIC.

TRUCK6018, i must agree, i was going to touch upon tunnel vision, but you said it perfectly. I to have seen way too many firefighters rely solely on a TIC and continue to stare into the screen without watching thier surroundings. As you stated, we must go back to the basics, remember our training before TIC's came along. A TIC is a great tool and all Depts. should have at least one, but we all must utilize our basic search and rescue techniques and not rely too much on a TIC. BFD1054

[mfc2257 464]

Millwood has two... One on E245 (our Squirt) and a mini Bullard on E247. They are Great Tools!

HOWEVER

I have two big issues:

1st, is training. I strongly believe that training without a TIC is imperitive. I feel like everyone who is going though basic these days just want's to finish so that they can use a TIC when they get to their first real job. The senses that a salty old FF has are not replaceable by a camera. Everyone should be of the opinion that when they get to a job that they probably won't get to use the TIC either because something is wrong with it (it didn't charge properly or someone forgot to plug it in after drill) or because the Truck Co. already has it inside doing search & rescue and now you have to go in with the knob to put the thing out and you don't have the camera.

2nd, is training with the camera. TIC's do not give a FF a very good depth perception. Thus, when operating in a tense situation where you are already succeptable to heat, fatigue, and fear, (yes we do get scared) the image on the screen apears to be so close, yet it is really 10-20 feet farther away. This can get people into trouble as they rush to get to the spot that they see in the camera. Now they have just covered 20 or so feet in a room that they probably haven't checked for danger (weak floor, another crew, etc.)

I know it sounds crazy, but sometimes I think it's easier to get in trouble with a camera than without

[Remember585 815]

You all make good points.

One thing I find troublesome about the Imagers is the loss of a hand to do other tasks. Of course you could buy the unit that mounts to your head, but 9 times out of 10, the guy wearing it is focused on it, and not thier surroundings.

My Department uses the Bullard Handheld unit, and I like it very much. It is rugged, dependable and resourceful. I also was fortunate to have used the new unit I believe Morning Pride was making that looks like a map light that mounts to the helmet. I found that it came in handy if it was used when it NEEDED TO BE USED. Alot of the guys I was working with were too busy looking at the small "window" and didn't notice other activity around them. One firefighter didn't even notice the hose on the floor and fell.

My point is simple, an imager is a TOOL. It is not your eyes, it is not designed to replace one of your senses. It is a TOOL! Use it like any other tool we use in this industry, only when it is called for and is necessary.

[FFD260 1]

FAIRVIEW FIRE DEPT HAS ONE ON RESCUE THREE AND E175 AND E174 HAS IT TOO AND IT IS A BULLARD... =D> 8)

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Just to add a quick note, I'm not sure what manufacturer MSA is currently using to produce the camera's they sell with their name on it. Up until a couple years ago, Marconi was MSA's manufacturer but they severed ties from what I understand to be conflicts over MSA's servicing of its customers. Now Marconi sells their camera's as Marconi. For those whom may not know, Marconi is a Westchester based company, so if your looking for a new camera, they are very decent and you can give back to the local economy. And no I do not work nor am I affiliated with that company.

[TR54 239]

Training Training Training!!!

Next week OFD has TIC training planned to address many of the fine points alsfirefighter mentioned .For instance -- victims appearing "darker" due to ambient temerature ,,,not white or red.

The drill is being conducted by a certified operator.He is setting up a few excellent "on hands" search conditions as well a classroom session.

Included will be Reconizing Haz Mat spills ,,Using liquid from a 55 gallon drum.

The TIC is just a tool ,, trust good old search RULES !!

BE safe