Can Westchester Depts. Handle This?

[Dinosaur 844]

To answer your question Yes they can. Depts work together when mutual aid is needed/a 10-75 is called. You rarely if ever see just one FDNY company on the scene at a fire, so why should it be any different for Westchester.

So wrong on so many levels. You can't compare FDNY to Westchester and some departments, to be blunt, don't work well together. Either because of egos and attitudes, different SOP's and training or some old feud that nobody remembers but "oh we don't call THEM for mutual aid!".

FDNY operates with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and hierarchy. They all have the same training and SOP, they all have the same equipment, and the bosses are all well trained and experienced. An engine is an engine and a ladder is a ladder. You know exactly what you're getting with each.

Westchester has 50 something different departments all with different training, procedures, leadership, expectations, and capabilities. Engines may be coming with one guy or they may be coming with a driver and two exterior "FF" or it may be a crew of four trained firefighters. You never know.

Define trained personnel? if it's Interior Firefighters, then the usage of Mutual Aid would be capable of handling this. if you mean specialized training for this type of incident, where can one find that course?

Hopefully all of them...

I would say it will happen, just not sure of exact time frame due to response times / distances.

If it is during a day like the past two days we've had, it would be brutal and require extensive manpower. As for times/day of the week... it's always going to be a crap shoot. Volunteer departments as we know are hit or miss. Paid departments during the day routinely have extra guys on and run with their minimum at night - which we all know isn't enough. Take into consideration too if it's during a storm when everyone is already out running around handling dozens of calls - so many variables....

There are a lot of variables but the departments shouldn't be one. You should know that when you call 911 and report a fire blowing out the windows of an OMD, you're getting the troops. Even the 2nd and 3rd alarms that they chief called in Hempstead mean entirely different things in every Westchester department.

Hey bnechis, here's a question. The standard is 12+1 or 36+1 for a regular residential single family house. Is there a standard for a job like this? It's got to be at least double, no?

[okcomputer 12]

@Dinosaur - I'm not comparing at all.

[Bnechis 3,961]

How many depts. can get enough trained personnel on scene fast enough?

To answer your question Yes they can.

Define trained personnel? if it's Interior Firefighters, then the usage of Mutual Aid would be capable of handling this.

Very few. Contrary to the rhetoric we're all understaffed (career and volunteer) and not experienced with this type of fire in most areas.

OK so the answers so far are: Yes, define it and No (generally).

Yes they can: Let’s look back to 2005 when Yonkers had a fire call on the 1^st floor apt. in a 7 story OMD. When the first Yonkers fire units arrived on scene, they reported a working fire with people coming down the fire escapes. Within 5 minutes, the bc requested another engine. Over the next 10 minutes, 2^nd, 3^rd and 4^th alarms were called. Within 23 minutes of arriving a 5^th alarm (recall of off duty members and mutual aid). Within 25 minutes of the call more than 75 “interior” trained firefighters were operating in the hazard zone. In the first 45 minutes of this fire approximately 100 civilians were rescue via both ground and aerial ladders.

Within 50 minutes, all firefighters were evacuated as fire had taken hold of the 1st through 4^th floors. Over the next two and a half (2½) hours the fire continued to expand and the fire went up to nine (9) alarms with 22 engines and 11 ladders from Yonkers and mutual aid. Bringing the total units on the scene to over 30 engines and 14 ladders. Recalled Yonkers firefighters were able to man three spare engines and two spare ladders to cover the rest of the city.

Within 3 hours the building had collapsed and was declared a total loss. The lesson that everyone in Westchester should have learned that day was without being able to place a high number of well coordinated firefighters on the scene within the first 30 minutes this fire would have set a new record for the number of lives lost. Mutual aid was useless in saving lives at this incident as it would have taken too long to arrive.

It would define trained personnel as ones who can operate at a large fire in an OMD. Most need to be Interior, but what currently most depts. consider the training for interior barely covers the skills needed to operate at or command an incident in this type of building.

Mutual Aid has trouble operating at a single family home fire, how are they going to function at this?

How many are competent in fighting a fire in this type of structure?

Depts work together when mutual aid is needed/a 10-75 is called.

if you mean specialized training for this type of incident, where can one find that course?.........Hopefully all of them...

Very very few I'm afraid. We don't spend a lot of time on these types of structures and we don't go to these buildings and drill because we're afraid of scaring the residents or some other nonsense.

1. I do not know of any “courses”, but before that, we need to develop the individual/team skills needed to operate at these fires.
   
2. These skills include:
   


1. Hose Stretches; Court Yard Stretch, interior stair, stair well, fire escape stretch and sometimes standpipe.
   
2. Forcible Entry; These apts. are often equipped with steel doors & frames and FE will be needed on multiple doors, in low visibility and at the same time. Many depts. deal with FE at an exterior door only.
   
3. Ventilation: Vertical & Horizontal. Bulkhead doors and skylights, access to the roof, dealing with cocklofts, etc.
   
4. And coordinating all of this. Plus a host of other skills.
   
5. The larger depts. that deal with these structures on a regular basis train all members in the skills, then set up SOP’s (to put the skills “together”) and then drill on them
   
   

[abaduck 123]

Except for the fact that they had 2nd floor at 18.30 and we had the 1st at 04.30, the photos I saw of this incident look a lot like what I saw when I rolled up to Larchmont Acres:

It got handled.

Mike

[Bnechis 3,961]

Except for the fact that they had 2nd floor at 18.30 and we had the 1st at 04.30, the photos I saw of this incident look a lot like what I saw when I rolled up to Larchmont Acres: It got handled.

Mike with all due respect, TMFD had a single apt fire with possible extension. The incident I used had 4 floors of heavy fire. TMFD's used 2 lines for knockdown (if memory serves), while they needed many lines and master steams. They had jumpers down and TMFD had a couple on the fire escape who were too scared to climb down.

This is not to say TMFD's job was not handled well. But it was a relativly simple job.

[moggie6 54]

County wide dept......

[babhits16 28]

The fire occurred on a Sunday afternoon. Would there have been that much help that quick if it happened on a late morning on a weekday?

Very little difference. Long Island employers are very good with letting employees go for 'the big one'. More importantly, there is a local career department in the area (Garden City), most of all the EMS agencies have career daytime personnel. Hempstead always seems to have a heavy flow of young kids. Their a busy department that gets a lot of work, kids from all over join. And also a large university is in their jurisdiction (Hofstra). Also like to point out that LI departments spaced so close together calling in another department still has a short response time.

But I'm talking about this one area in particular. In other LI communities this could be a BIG problem. I think many departments here on LI are in need of some 24/7 personnel, or at least fill an engine and truck crews during the day time. Every community is a different story.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Very little difference. Long Island employers are very good with letting employees go for 'the big one'. More importantly, there is a local career department in the area (Garden City), most of all the EMS agencies have career daytime personnel. Hempstead always seems to have a heavy flow of young kids. Their a busy department that gets a lot of work, kids from all over join. And also a large university is in their jurisdiction (Hofstra). Also like to point out that LI departments spaced so close together calling in another department still has a short response time.

But I'm talking about this one area in particular. In other LI communities this could be a BIG problem. I think many departments here on LI are in need of some 24/7 personnel, or at least fill an engine and truck crews during the day time. Every community is a different story.

Garden City is a combo Dept. Mostly Volunteer. Also to note the career men DO NOT leave the district. Mutual aide is handled by the volunteers with the spare tower ladder or engine, whatever is called for. In this case the tower ladder responded on the 3rd alarm to standby, then was relocated to the scene.

[babhits16 28]

Garden City is a combo Dept. Mostly Volunteer. Also to note the career men DO NOT leave the district. Mutual aide is handled by the volunteers with the spare tower ladder or engine, whatever is called for. In this case the tower ladder responded on the 3rd alarm to standby, then was relocated to the scene.

I stand corrected!

[Dinosaur 844]

How much time in an average department is spent on drills relating to incidents like this? Whether it be standpipe operations, long hose stretches, complex forcible entry, ventilation, do we actually do drills on this or do we focus on other skills?

Unfortunately I think very few departments actually do drills that properly prepare their FF for this kinds of fires. The notion that Hempstead benefits from lots of young members actually makes me nervous. If they're confronted with a job like this one with little training or experience, they're being put in a very dangerous position. Likewise I think too many departments ignore this risk and don't drill on it enough.

[learndabasics 13]

This fire was aggressively fought by volunteer members of Hempstead along with surrounding volunteer departments. The Garden City paid members did not respond as alluded to earlier. The ages of FF’s operating interior, roof and performing VES probably ranged from their 20’s to 50’s all with varied experience levels with the more experienced members providing guidance and leadership on the fire floors. The younger members have been trained to FF-1 level and beyond via the Nassau County Fire Academy. Hempstead also has its own internal fire training school for probationary members and is run by highly qualified and experienced FF’s. Hempstead’s Co’s do drill on Engine & Truck operations in these types of occupancies as do some of its neighboring depts. The drills cover tactics & operations ranging from water supply, hose stretching, standpipe ops, forcible entry, VES, ventilation, laddering, roof ops, life saving-roof rope operations, etc. Fires in occupied multiple dwellings are not an uncommon occurrence in Hempstead. The Village of Hempstead probably most closely resembles the City of Mt Vernon with regard to structural types, ethnic diversity, economic diversity and population density. Hempstead does not have any formal recruiting program with Hofstra University. The career backgrounds of the membership run the gamut from private, public and emergency services employment.

The first post of this thread stated that LCS/Master Stream appliances were used at this fire which is untrue. The fire was fought completely with interior handlines supplied from standpipe outlets.

The operations went fairly well at this job, however there is always the need and room for personal & operational improvement via drilling/training. Only a fool would walk away from this job or any other for that matter without critiquing themselves, their company, department and looking for ways to improve.

Hempstead FD is probably not that much different from many of yours.

Stay Safe.

Edited June 27, 2012 by learndabasics

[Bnechis 3,961]

This fire was aggressively fought by volunteer members of Hempstead along with surrounding volunteer departments.......The drills cover tactics & operations ranging from water supply, hose stretching, standpipe ops, forcible entry, VES, ventilation, laddering, roof ops, life saving-roof rope operations, etc.

Thanks for a great 1st post and welcome to EMTBravo. The training you describ is what I was questioning if depts in Westchester had done this. I believe many have not or if they have they have not performed it enough to be effective.

The first post of this thread stated that LCS/Master Stream appliances were used at this fire which is untrue. The fire was fought completely with interior handlines supplied from standpipe outlets.

Thanks for the correction, that if was from the original incident alert and I was more concerned with concepts, then if they had actually used those specific methods/equipment.

The operations went fairly well at this job, however there is always the need and room for personal & operational improvement via drilling/training. Only a fool would walk away from this job or any other for that matter without critiquing themselves, their company, department and looking for ways to improve.

Very well said.

Hempstead FD is probably not that much different from many of yours. Stay Safe.

The entire point of this thread was to have members consider if this is true or not.

Thanks for your post.

[everybodygoes 331]

Guy I work with lives in Hempstead. One day he gets a call from another guy at the firehouse that he thinks his building is on fire, very similar to this one. Large NFP apt building 6 stories. Guess what, they put that one out too. They get a lot of people to turn out. They get more fire duty than Yonkers and know how to work it out with other depts to get help early. My old MX partner was a Chief there, half the place is like Purchase the other half like Mogadishu.

Guys at work always talk about who is going to fires and blah blah blah. Same answer always rings true, Spring Valley, Hempstead, and Selden/Wyandanch.

[Bnechis 3,961]

They get a lot of people to turn out. They get more fire duty than Yonkers and know how to work it out with other depts to get help early.

How much more fire duty do they get?

HFD has 5 engines, 2 trucks, 3 hose companies, A Rescue Squad and Fire Police covering 50,000 residents in 3 square miles.

YFD has 10 engines, 6 trucks, 1 rescue covering 195,976 residents, 18 square miles

[spin_the_wheel 460]

More fire duty then the entire Yonkers FD doubt it, more then some YFD companies, thats possible. Hempstead has 17 transmitted working fires so far this year. Worker gets retransmitted and a FAST to the scene. They always rank #1 in workers each year in Nassau County. The last 15 years a low of 20 in 2003 and a high of 42 in 2008.

[okcomputer 12]

I'm curious was this Scenario created to show flaws of volunteer or combo departments in westchester while praising all career depts, etc. and if so, why?

[Dinosaur 844]

I'm curious was this Scenario created to show flaws of volunteer or combo departments in westchester while praising all career depts, etc. and if so, why?

I didn't read it that way at all. With the possible exception of Yonkers, there's no department in the County (career, combo, or volunteer) that can handle a job like that without help.

I thought the point was that there has been little or no pre-planning, training and drills, and real meaningful preparedness for a job like that one.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm curious was this Scenario created to show flaws of volunteer or combo departments in westchester while praising all career depts, etc. and if so, why?

1) This Scenario was created by a fire in Nassau County that was handled very well by 100% volunteer depts. The question asked was can ANY community in Westchester handle it the same. Note, that I said community because this was not just a FD operation. EMS managed to get 24 abulances to the scene in short order and I am asking if Westchester can do the same.

2) Where are the praises for the all career depts in this post? I (nor anyone else) ever said the career communities could handle this incident properly.

3) Are you saying that this type of incident could not happen in Westchester? or in communities with vol., combo or career depts.?

4) Are you saying there are flaws in any dept. when it comes to this type of incident?

5) Why do you think this is anti- vol or anti combo? If you can not handle an incident that can occur in at least 1/2 the communities in Westchester, what are you doing about it, besides claiming that this is an attack? If you can not answer the questions with planning, training, equipment etc. then I should not have to ask the question, but you have a responsability to the community you swore to protect to tell them, you can not handle it and/or you need help.

[rayrider 94]

Guy I work with lives in Hempstead. One day he gets a call from another guy at the firehouse that he thinks his building is on fire, very similar to this one. Large NFP apt building 6 stories. Guess what, they put that one out too. They get a lot of people to turn out. They get more fire duty than Yonkers and know how to work it out with other depts to get help early. My old MX partner was a Chief there, half the place is like Purchase the other half like Mogadishu.

Guys at work always talk about who is going to fires and blah blah blah. Same answer always rings true, Spring Valley, Hempstead, and Selden/Wyandanch.