Can Westchester Depts. Handle This?

[Bnechis 3,961]

From Incident Alert:

Date: 06-17-12 (Sunday)

Time: 18:19hrs.

Weather Conditions: Warm and Clear

Description Of Incident: Chief 80 o/s reporting a kitchen fire on the 2nd floor of a 7-story brick 200'x200' OMD w/reports of victims trapped. Companies o/s w/heavy fire showing w/extension to the 3rd floor. 2nd and 3rd Alarms transmitted by Command for heavy fire conditions and numerous victims trapped. Command reporting fire extended to the 5th and 6th floors w/jumpers down. 4th, 5th, and 6th Alarms transmitted by Command. Heavy fire on the 2nd through 6th floors. Numerous L/S/O's w/master streams in operation. Ladder Companies opening up. Numerous victims rescued. Command requested 24 additional Ambulances to the scene for 30 victims to be transported to local hospitals. All hands working.

The above incident occured yesterday in Hempstead L.I.. The depts. did a great job and everyone was very lucky to have no fatalities.

Identical buildings exist in Westchester from Yonkers to Peekskill along the Hudson, from Pelham Manor to Portchester along the LI Sound and from Mount Vernon North to _______ along the Harlem Line MNRR.

How many depts. can get enough trained personnel on scene fast enough?

How many are competent in fighting a fire in this type of structure?

How long would it take to get 24 additional ambulances?

And how would the performance be if the weather was not perfect and it was at other times/day of the week?

Finally, how do we get there from here?

[R1SmokeEater 359]

Barry, here's some pix of the job to go along with your post, Lou Minutoli photos:

http://www.firstonscenephotos.com/Hempstead/Hempstead-Fulton-Avene/23625941_xwWHJh#!i=1911720839&k=GdRxNbn

And YMF photos:

http://youremyfocus.smugmug.com/Firefighting/Hempstead-Fire-Dept/590-Fulton-Street-6-17-12/23625728_dgVZhQ#!i=1911661055&k=cJB7cm8

Edited June 19, 2012 by R1SmokeEater

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Change that to 0830 and Port Chester not Portchester and no way with the volls at work and coming to the fire at a good responce time and 1 Firefighter on the first due ?

[firedude 985]

Barry, here's some pix of the job to go along with your post, Lou Minutoli photos:

http://www.firstonsc...20839&k=GdRxNbn

And YMF photos:

http://youremyfocus....61055&k=cJB7cm8

Don't want to Hijack this thread but, here are some videos:

Edited June 19, 2012 by firedude

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Both my active departments are combination, so yes, they could probably get enough certified manpower on scene in short order. Speaking from West Haven we'd get mutual aid from Milford and New Haven in, in Wallingford we'd get North Haven, Hamden and Meriden.

Do we train enough for high rise fires? No. We focus most of our training on 3 Woods, which is our bread and butter, we do a couple of high-rise drills a year but not enough for me to say with any confidence that I'm proficient.

24 ambulances depends on what AMR has available, but if you needed them CMED would pull from other companies as well, and you'd get an MCI unit or 2. Would also depend if you needed 24 ALS trucks or BLS.

Middle of winter in a snowstorm this could be a different story, would certainly lengthen our response time and effect our truck company operations.

I'm still making up a training plan for one of my departments, but we have a high-rise housing authority building in our first due, so rest assured that's going to be reflected in my plan.

[goon16 155]

What do u consider a high rise job? How many stories and what not

[SageVigiles 1,194]

What do u consider a high rise job? How many stories and what not

Compared to NYC its definitely not a "high-rise" but I live in CT, very few buildings more than 4-5 stories. Nothing tall enough for wind to be a serious factor, etc.

The building that pops into my mind within our first due is 8 stories. We have a few 4-5 story buildings at the University that we go to for smells and bells or the occasional kitchen fire, but nothing huge. Lots of commercial storefronts along the Post Road, some industrial/storage facilities tucked away. But probably over 85% of our district is 3 family balloon frame houses. I just don't think we practice standpipe operations enough.

Edited June 19, 2012 by SageVigiles

[mstrang1 213]

Compared to NYC its definitely not a "high-rise" but I live in CT, very few buildings more than 4-5 stories. Nothing tall enough for wind to be a serious factor, etc.

The building that pops into my mind within our first due is 8 stories. We have a few 4-5 story buildings at the University that we go to for smells and bells or the occasional kitchen fire, but nothing huge. Lots of commercial storefronts along the Post Road, some industrial/storage facilities tucked away. But probably over 85% of our district is 3 family balloon frame houses. I just don't think we practice standpipe operations enough.

Height is not the only thing when it comes to wind driven fires. I just got the new fire engineering, and while I have not read the article yet, they talk about a 1 story wind driven fire.

[engine51 10]

Job well done

[sympathomedic 383]

I am sooo not a fire guy, so feel free to break my chops on this. Would it be unreasonable to stop allowing the building of structures that if on fire, would be beyond the capacity of the local FD?

It would mean only small structures in small towns, and larger structures in large towns. I know there are buildings in my town that we simply could not be expected to handle with what we have. I think the big new Trump buildings in NR and other huge buildings in WP are beyond the capacity of their protecting agencies.

If a developer felt the need put such a concentration of fire load in a single spot to better fatten his bank account, he would need to subsidize the FD in perpetuity. Not a tax break, a tax add-on for the cost of added fire suppression capacity.

Some will say that large fires are what mutual aid is for. I agree. Based on history, a large fire in a single home in my town needs 2-4 MA dept's to fight it. That is fine and that is what MA IS for. Is MA for building a sprawling 250 bed nursing home full of folks that could not walk out on a warm sunny clear day with NO fire? In an area with NO hydrants?

The FD is part of a Town's infrastructure. If the infrastructure cannot support a large structure, be it sewage, water, EMS or fire, than perhaps we ( or more accurately you), the folks who whether paid or volly have stood up and said, "I will handle the fires around here" need to stand up and say, "I'm real good, but I am not 7 floors X 200 X 200 OMD good. Lets make it three story clusters with sprinklers. That we can handle"

What do you guys think of that? I await my lessons.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What do u consider a high rise job? How many stories and what not

While most codes say 75 feet (approx 6 stories), I see a big difference in our 6-8 story OMD and out 40 story "high rises". Our highrises are concrete & steel, sprinklered, have fire pumps and presurized standpipes, fire alarms, HVAC systems to evacuate smoke and fire service elevators, presurized fire stairs, etc. Our 6-8 story OMD's have masonary walls and wood interiors (many are wood frame with a brick/stone veneer). open stairwells, no sprinklers, no stand pipes, common cockloft. abandoned dumbwaiters, non fire service elevators and not detection systems.

Nothing tall enough for wind to be a serious factor, etc.

We have seen wind driven fire on 2nd floor fires. Half of CA has burned due to wind.

The building that pops into my mind within our first due is 8 stories.

We have a few 4-5 story buildings at the University that we go to for smells and bells or the occasional kitchen fire, but nothing huge.

Nothing huge yet. And if a dorm that fire is coming.

I just don't think we practice standpipe operations enough.

Most do not. But this fire started on the 2nd floor, no standpipes for that attack (dont know about the upper floors) and many OMD's do not have standpipes.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Nothing huge yet. And if a dorm that fire is coming.

Fortunately all the dorms are sprinklered and alarmed, and the Fire Science program at the school have developed a really aggressive training program for the Residential Life staff in fire prevention. RA's do monthly inspection in the rooms as well to make sure FP systems are not tampered with and smoke detectors are still operational, as well as checking to make sure the students don't have any "banned" items that create a high fire risk. They also do a lot of fire education for the general campus population as well so we have that working in our favor at least.

The one thing we've had happen is in one of the newer buildings, there is a kitchen for a small dining hall on the ground floor. Grease built up in the ductwork and charged the whole place with smoke. Not much fire, but there definitely could have been. Fortunately there is no doorway from the dining hall to the residential section of the building so when the duct dampers activated there was negligible smoke in the rest of the building.

Not saying its not going to happen, it will eventually, but when it does the deck is stacked in our favor to make our lives easier.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I am sooo not a fire guy, so feel free to break my chops on this. Would it be unreasonable to stop allowing the building of structures that if on fire, would be beyond the capacity of the local FD?

It would mean only small structures in small towns, and larger structures in large towns. I know there are buildings in my town that we simply could not be expected to handle with what we have. I think the big new Trump buildings in NR and other huge buildings in WP are beyond the capacity of their protecting agencies.

If a developer felt the need put such a concentration of fire load in a single spot to better fatten his bank account, he would need to subsidize the FD in perpetuity. Not a tax break, a tax add-on for the cost of added fire suppression capacity.

Some will say that large fires are what mutual aid is for. I agree. Based on history, a large fire in a single home in my town needs 2-4 MA dept's to fight it. That is fine and that is what MA IS for. Is MA for building a sprawling 250 bed nursing home full of folks that could not walk out on a warm sunny clear day with NO fire? In an area with NO hydrants?

The FD is part of a Town's infrastructure. If the infrastructure cannot support a large structure, be it sewage, water, EMS or fire, than perhaps we ( or more accurately you), the folks who whether paid or volly have stood up and said, "I will handle the fires around here" need to stand up and say, "I'm real good, but I am not 7 floors X 200 X 200 OMD good. Lets make it three story clusters with sprinklers. That we can handle"

What do you guys think of that? I await my lessons.

Great points, but it requires the FD be honest in telling the community their limitations. Of course community "leaders" are looking for every dollar they can get, so saying "No" to a potential developer or large scale project is much more difficult for many people. Luckily codes are far more likely to prevent large multiple dwellings without sprinklers or require the number, location and types of egress to be such that upper floor entrapment is far less likely than those built just a few decades ago.

[wraftery 1,275]

What do u consider a high rise job? How many stories and what not

We usually wouldn't regard a 6 story building as hi-rise because it's roof is within reach of FD ladders. However, if you line these OMD's up on a street with the only access on the #1 side, your tactics are those of hi-rise firefighting. (Standpipe packs, etc)

[goon16 155]

Yea thats not a highrise fire by our standards. I was just curious to what u considered

[goon16 155]

While most codes say 75 feet (approx 6 stories), I see a big difference in our 6-8 story OMD and out 40 story "high rises". Our highrises are concrete & steel, sprinklered, have fire pumps and presurized standpipes, fire alarms, HVAC systems to evacuate smoke and fire service elevators, presurized fire stairs, etc. Our 6-8 story OMD's have masonary walls and wood interiors (many are wood frame with a brick/stone veneer). open stairwells, no sprinklers, no stand pipes, common cockloft. abandoned dumbwaiters, non fire service elevators and not detection

Funny my job describes it as the same thing

[ffp20 14]

The fire occurred on a Sunday afternoon. Would there have been that much help that quick if it happened on a late morning on a weekday?

[wraftery 1,275]

Yea thats not a highrise fire by our standards. I was just curious to what u considered

I would go with 10 or more stories. That's about when you have to change tactics to a hi-rise operation and stage a floor below, operate from standpipes,designate "Hot stairway/Evacuation stairway," etc.

My point before was that even though you are only working in a 6-story OMD, you may be using a modified hi-rise tactic because of inaccessability of 3 sides.

In addition, reading Goon16's description of omd's, note that an OMD will have features that differ by when the building was built. They are usually Ordinary construction, normally not frame, but the brick veneer might be over concrete block. They differ in things like Fire escapes vs. Fire stairs, vs open stairs by date built. Many have standpipes, and some have house standpipes that are not connected to a fire main and don't have a FDC. House standpipes can be used for an initial attack by feeding the lobby standpipe with a hose line, but that ends their usefulness.

Even an older OMD with open stairs and accessable from only the A side can be worked with a standpipe pack form the 1st due engine. Take the standpipe pack to the floor below. Open or force a "clean" apartment on the A Side, and drop the standplpe pack line out the window. Communicate to the MPO where the line can be found, and have him connect to it. Better yet, work up a SOP for such places in your area, using what's best for you, given the different classes of buildings in your area and the response capabilities of your FD.

[AddItToTheBoxK 12]

Bottom line no matter the time no matter the place, wether paid or vollie if your Department and Mutual aid units cant handle what is dispatched then you have no Buisness operating as a FD. I see what your doing here Bnecchis trying to open our eyes and start some table top talk which is good. Sometimes the situation is beyond our means to control as quick as one would want or vision, that can happen to anyone. In a situtation like this the first due or IC must consider how many people need to be removed from the building and relocated withinn and we all know that task will be tough with residents who always cooperate lol. We could go on forever about this. Good topic to open up some minds etc. One thhing they had to thier advantage that alot of us dont have here in Westchester is NO OVERHEAD WIRES so trucks can prove to be majorly effecttive.

[ny10570 745]

While 30 patients sounds overwhelming there is a big difference between 30 walking wounded and a much smaller incident with 10 critical. Severely injured patients tax your medical and firefighting resources. Triage and rapid trsnsport of your critical patients is vital to efficiently managing your scene. Even if you cant get 20 ambulances on the road there's a lot you can do on scene and FDs should not just bd relying on EMS to bail thfm out here. Unless you're assigning EMS on all of your structural alatms odds are you'll be waiting with the initial patients for EMS to arrive.

[JetPhoto 626]

Unless you're assigning EMS on all of your structural alatms odds are you'll be waiting with the initial patients for EMS to arrive.

I don't understand why some FD's don't have EMS responding on initial call for a structure fire. Do they think they have that many extra EMS trained firefighters as well as a large enough crew for fire operations that they can afford to wait for an ambulance to arrive for the victim that got out of the house before they arrived? What if the ambulance that covers your area takes time to get out or your contract ambulance is on other calls so it takes longer for a back up unit to arrive.

[Sailr322 88]

I don't understand why some FD's don't have EMS responding on initial call for a structure fire. Do they think they have that many extra EMS trained firefighters as well as a large enough crew for fire operations that they can afford to wait for an ambulance to arrive for the victim that got out of the house before they arrived? What if the ambulance that covers your area takes time to get out or your contract ambulance is on other calls so it takes longer for a back up unit to arrive.

I agree. Especially in the instance of a fire like this one. You have multiple floors and apartments to check and if the first arriving units are tied up assessing patients and not able to make entry to look for trapped people. If you are able to have both respond on the alarm assignment this allows the initial fire units to enter and search for trapped individuals while EMS is able to asses those that are out of the building. At a big scene I think it is best to keep everyone operating in the area they responded with, fire with fire, EMS with EMS, and then once the situation has been sized up begin to fill in where necessary. I am not saying that EMT-B EMT-P FFs are not capable of delivering care, but at a working fire such as this one I think it is more important for them to be able to make initial entry upon arrival rather than spend valuable time that they could be looking for trapped people caring for those already out that responding EMS could handle.

[okcomputer 12]

To answer your question Yes they can. Depts work together when mutual aid is needed/a 10-75 is called. You rarely if ever see just one FDNY company on the scene at a fire, so why should it be any different for Westchester.

[Remember585 815]

EMS isn't dispatched initially for most departments for the same reason. When a call goes into the CAD as a "Stru" (Structure Fire) it could be for an oven fire, already extinguished fire or another lesser incident that wouldn't require it. A dispatcher will send EMS if call information warrants it (burn victim, smoke inhalation, person(s) trapped, etc.). However, most fire departments have EMS sent on confirmation of a fire.

Mathematically speaking, the % of "structural fires" we went to last year that required EMS was less than 10%.

[Remember585 815]

How many depts. can get enough trained personnel on scene fast enough?

Define trained personnel? if it's Interior Firefighters, then the usage of Mutual Aid would be capable of handling this. if you mean specialized training for this type of incident, where can one find that course?

How many are competent in fighting a fire in this type of structure?

Hopefully all of them...

How long would it take to get 24 additional ambulances?

I would say it will happen, just not sure of exact time frame due to response times / distances.

And how would the performance be if the weather was not perfect and it was at other times/day of the week?

If it is during a day like the past two days we've had, it would be brutal and require extensive manpower. As for times/day of the week... it's always going to be a crap shoot. Volunteer departments as we know are hit or miss. Paid departments during the day routinely have extra guys on and run with their minimum at night - which we all know isn't enough. Take into consideration too if it's during a storm when everyone is already out running around handling dozens of calls - so many variables....

Finally, how do we get there from here?

Go north, make two rights, make a left then head east.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Mathematically speaking, the % of "structural fires" we went to last year that required EMS was less than 10%.

Agreed, but I look at like a RIT/FAST, you don't need it until you NEED it. I remember the day before my Firefighter 1 class started, Brookfield, CT had a fire, nothing out of control, but one of the Captains dropped and went into cardiac arrest. The medics were able to revive him and he's still around. If they had to wait for EMS, would it have had the same outcome? Maybe not.

Just something to think about.

[Dinosaur 844]

Description Of Incident: Chief 80 o/s reporting a kitchen fire on the 2nd floor of a 7-story brick 200'x200' OMD w/reports of victims trapped. Companies o/s w/heavy fire showing w/extension to the 3rd floor. 2nd and 3rd Alarms transmitted by Command for heavy fire conditions and numerous victims trapped. Command reporting fire extended to the 5th and 6th floors w/jumpers down. 4th, 5th, and 6th Alarms transmitted by Command. Heavy fire on the 2nd through 6th floors. Numerous L/S/O's w/master streams in operation. Ladder Companies opening up. Numerous victims rescued. Command requested 24 additional Ambulances to the scene for 30 victims to be transported to local hospitals. All hands working.

The above incident occurred yesterday in Hempstead L.I.. The depts. did a great job and everyone was very lucky to have no fatalities.

Identical buildings exist in Westchester from Yonkers to Peekskill along the Hudson, from Pelham Manor to Portchester along the LI Sound and from Mount Vernon North to _______ along the Harlem Line MNRR.

How many depts. can get enough trained personnel on scene fast enough?

Very few. Contrary to the rhetoric we're all understaffed (career and volunteer) and not experienced with this type of fire in most areas.

How many are competent in fighting a fire in this type of structure?

Very very few I'm afraid. We don't spend a lot of time on these types of structures and we don't go to these buildings and drill because we're afraid of scaring the residents or some other nonsense.

How long would it take to get 24 additional ambulances?

Well if you order them early enough in the day and have them shipped priority overnight, you should have them by the next day at 1030. Seriously, the mutual aid system in Westchester is flawed. 60 doesn't know what resources are in service or out of service and they don't dispatch them all, even in a disaster. Other counties with centralized 911 are better but still behind the 8-ball because there's no standardization or coordination.

And how would the performance be if the weather was not perfect and it was at other times/day of the week?

We'll never know. There is no consistency from day to day or hour to hour. We hope (and sometimes pray) that we get a good turnout from the volunteers and most career jobs are barely staffed for a really cookin' room and contents job so our guess is as good as theirs.

Hempstead did do a good job with this one. And they were lucky. 4 or 5 AM and the building would have had a lot more people in it.

[Dinosaur 844]

Compared to NYC its definitely not a "high-rise" but I live in CT, very few buildings more than 4-5 stories. Nothing tall enough for wind to be a serious factor, etc.

Tall enough? Ever see a wind driven brush fire? Tall isn't the issue, wind velocity is the issue!!!

[Dinosaur 844]

Great points, but it requires the FD be honest in telling the community their limitations. Of course community "leaders" are looking for every dollar they can get, so saying "No" to a potential developer or large scale project is much more difficult for many people. Luckily codes are far more likely to prevent large multiple dwellings without sprinklers or require the number, location and types of egress to be such that upper floor entrapment is far less likely than those built just a few decades ago.

Imagine that. I learned of a local VFD that told it's jurisdiction that it had over 300 members. That counted everyone - ladies auxiliary, fire police, life members (the 80 year old guys that haven't fought a fire in decades), probies, exterior guys - EVERYONE! They used the argument to justify a bigger budget but they got called on it. Turns out they have about 60-70 real FF's. Still a respectable number but far from 300.

[Dinosaur 844]

Bottom line no matter the time no matter the place, wether paid or vollie if your Department and Mutual aid units cant handle what is dispatched then you have no Buisness operating as a FD. I see what your doing here Bnecchis trying to open our eyes and start some table top talk which is good. Sometimes the situation is beyond our means to control as quick as one would want or vision, that can happen to anyone. In a situtation like this the first due or IC must consider how many people need to be removed from the building and relocated withinn and we all know that task will be tough with residents who always cooperate lol. We could go on forever about this. Good topic to open up some minds etc. One thhing they had to thier advantage that alot of us dont have here in Westchester is NO OVERHEAD WIRES so trucks can prove to be majorly effecttive.

Who makes the determination? When an FD claims to be completely self-sufficient but isn't who throws the flag and calls the foul? Do the taxpayers get a rebate or credit for all they've contributed to the so-called FD when it really isn't?

This situation would have been a big charly-foxtrot in most of Westchester. You'd have tons of departments screaming half way across the county and half the resources would just stand there because the majority of "IC's" aren't prepared for something of that scale - even though the probability if such a job is high.