United States Vs. City of New York

[JM15 386]

I saw this on another forum.. Anyone have any thoughts? Doesn't seem fair to me

http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/fdny/claims.php

[Goose 188]

Its been on the radio for a few weeks now. Of course its not fair.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

If you're looking for something to make you really furious, read "Injustice" by J. Christian Adams. Tells you all about the Civil Rights Division of DoJ and the way they operate...

[BmSmall92 1]

I took the 2002 test and I remember the questions being all reading comprehension like questions. One of the questions I think asked about in a emergency situation do you go the wrong way down a one way street and questions in a similar vein. How are questions based off a 6th grade reading level discriminatory?

[ny10570 745]

I took the 2002 test and I remember the questions being all reading comprehension like questions. One of the questions I think asked about in a emergency situation do you go the wrong way down a one way street and questions in a similar vein. How are questions based off a 6th grade reading level discriminatory?

It is all about the disparate impact clause from Title VII. If the results show a racial bias and the questions cannot be proven to be pertinent to selecting the best candidate the test is assumed to be discriminatory.

Here's probably the best summary I've found, courtesy of "American University Law Review"

When one thinks about discrimination, blatant acts or bad motives usually come to mind. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (―Title VII‖) protects against this type of intentional discrimination in the workplace through its disparate treatment provision.

Title VII also, however, imposes liability even in situations where the employer acts without bad intentions. An employer may be liable simply because one group passes a neutral promotion test or meets a hiring qualification at a substantially higher rate than other groups, even when the selection criterion applies to everyone and is not devised to disadvantage one group over another.

Nevertheless, if an employer‘s neutral employment practice causes a disproportionate impact on a racial group or other protected class, it is a prima facie violation of Title VII‘s disparate impact provision.

The employer must defend the charge by showing that the employment practice

is job related and a business necessity. Even after an employer validates a business practice, the

employer may still be liable if there are other equally effective alternatives that have less adverse effect.

Edited May 31, 2012 by ny10570

[JM15 386]

The main thing I noticed was that they would be hired and given seniority.. So that mean that people who took the test 10 years ago and get hired right away would have seniority over someone who actually got hired 8 years ago etc.?

[M' Ave 1,466]

The main thing I noticed was that they would be hired and given seniority.. So that mean that people who took the test 10 years ago and get hired right away would have seniority over someone who actually got hired 8 years ago etc.?

Shamefully....yes. However, let's all remember that this is currently before the second circuit court on appeal. No matter who wins, the other side will probably petition the Supreme Court and no one will be getting any money or any seniority for a long time, hopefully never.

[SOUSGT 357]

Shamefully....yes. However, let's all remember that this is currently before the second circuit court on appeal. No matter who wins, the other side will probably petition the Supreme Court and no one will be getting any money or any seniority for a long time, hopefully never.

The only real winners in this action is the lawyers.

[SECTMB 612]

So, you didn't get hired ten years ago when you failed the written test. So you are now entitled to back pay for those 10 years? If so do they reduce the amount of back pay by what you have been making at another job vs what you would have made as a firefighter?

And if your African American, you are also entitled to compensatory damages for not being able to enjoy being a firefighter?

Bnechis can you sort this out please, it's a little mind boggling.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Shamefully....yes. However, let's all remember that this is currently before the second circuit court on appeal. No matter who wins, the other side will probably petition the Supreme Court and no one will be getting any money or any seniority for a long time, hopefully never.

One must hope that this finally goes to the Supreme Court and hope they are far more impartial than some lesser courts seems to have been.

I still for the life of me cannot figure out how anyone can argue that written examinations based on anything less than or equal to HS equivalency can be discriminatory? One one hand the government argues that we must have and hold strict guidelines to graduate and even "punish" schools and systems for failure to have a majority of students meet these guidelines, then in the next breath argue that these guidelines cannot be used to measure a persons ability to comprehend the same reading writing and mathematics?

Please if anyone can find some sort of answer to this riddle, point me in its direction: How do questions based on basic high school education standards discriminate against a particular race or set of races? The argument seems to be that the majority of the claimants are incapable of scoring as high as their white counterparts. Is this itself not a discriminatory statement, arguing these people are not capable of comprehending as well? What does that say to those individuals that actually do out score many others? I'd also like to know how the test statistics hold up next to national High School, ASVAB or SAT testing? Are the scores falling along similar lines or is this a fire service/public sector candidate issue alone?

[hudson144 150]

Disparate Impact? Whats it called when12 black Firefighters charge city hall demanding that the pending promotions of 2 white firefighters is halted?

Whats it called when the black city atty says she "didn't want to promote 2 white Firefighters in fear of a lawsuit from the Black Firefighters? * At the time she was 1st VP of the Black Bar Association for Westchester Co, its all BS!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The only real winners in this action is the lawyers.

Not if it goes to the Supreme Court and they throw it out. That could be a big win for merit-based hiring and promotions. Ricci v. DeStefano was the first step, but it wasn't enough.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Disparate Impact? Whats it called when12 black Firefighters charge city hall demanding that the pending promotions of 2 white firefighters is halted?

Whats it called when the black city atty says she "didn't want to promote 2 white Firefighters in fear of a lawsuit from the Black Firefighters? * At the time she was 1st VP of the Black Bar Association for Westchester Co, its all BS!

Affirmative action (reverse racism)

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Affirmative action (reverse racism)

There's nothing reverse about it. Its just racism.

Sorry, pet peeve.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Bnechis can you sort this out please, it's a little mind boggling.

Thanks for the vote, but this one defies logic and I can only sort out what can be sorted out. This one is beyond that until Despirate Impact is tossed.

[wraftery 1,275]

Hired with no reading skills, no ability to do even the simplest math, failed a test that could be passed with flying colors by a grammar school "B" student? Yet he is given a job that requires a working knowledge of things like emergency medicine, physics, chemistry, building construction, laws, rules and regulations, hydraulics, and on and on.

Who is the loser here? All of us! Every citizen of the communities affected by the laws passed by a clueless Congress, and enforced by the ludicrous interpretations by the Judicial Branch. It's not even the fact that we as taxpayers are funding all this idiocy. We are trusting our lives and the lives of our offspring to these ne'er do wells, because I only see it getting worse in the future. It's no longer "God Bless America," it's now "God Help America."

If you are one of those persons who failed the FDNY test in question, you probably are unable to read this post. Please go to a firehouse and somebody there will be able to tell you what the big words mean, But you better hurry. In a couple of years there may be no one at the firehouse who can read either.

[ny10570 745]

Shamefully....yes. However, let's all remember that this is currently before the second circuit court on appeal. No matter who wins, the other side will probably petition the Supreme Court and no one will be getting any money or any seniority for a long time, hopefully never.

As a potential beneficiary of this action I still disagree with it. It taints every minority that gets hired. Whether you were given the job by a judge or earned it through the test you will be painted with the same brush. (Before anyone assumes I'm another bottom of the barrel scum that's hoping for a free boost, I was called for the first class of the last list but had to defer pending surgery.)

So, you didn't get hired ten years ago when you failed the written test. So you are now entitled to back pay for those 10 years? If so do they reduce the amount of back pay by what you have been making at another job vs what you would have made as a firefighter?

And if your African American, you are also entitled to compensatory damages for not being able to enjoy being a firefighter?

Bnechis can you sort this out please, it's a little mind boggling.

It all depends on the settlement. In class action suits they'll usually take a sample of plaintiffs determine their compensation and extrapolate it over all plaintiffs. Don't forget, they can ask for whatever they want. There are specific rules and precedents that dictate penalty limits. I do not believe there is means for damages associated with not being able to enjoy being a firefighter. There is also a limit to how many years back any damages can go.

One must hope that this finally goes to the Supreme Court and hope they are far more impartial than some lesser courts seems to have been.

I still for the life of me cannot figure out how anyone can argue that written examinations based on anything less than or equal to HS equivalency can be discriminatory? One one hand the government argues that we must have and hold strict guidelines to graduate and even "punish" schools and systems for failure to have a majority of students meet these guidelines, then in the next breath argue that these guidelines cannot be used to measure a persons ability to comprehend the same reading writing and mathematics?

Please if anyone can find some sort of answer to this riddle, point me in its direction: How do questions based on basic high school education standards discriminate against a particular race or set of races? The argument seems to be that the majority of the claimants are incapable of scoring as high as their white counterparts. Is this itself not a discriminatory statement, arguing these people are not capable of comprehending as well? What does that say to those individuals that actually do out score many others? I'd also like to know how the test statistics hold up next to national High School, ASVAB or SAT testing? Are the scores falling along similar lines or is this a fire service/public sector candidate issue alone?

It has nothing to do with the questions on the test. Even if they actually used a GED exam, if the results demonstrated a racial bias and the test cannot be proved to be necessary to select the best candidates then the test can be considered discriminatory.

The department has a history of hiring within a very small range of scores. This has resulted in similar careers no matter where they scored because no one with an 86 was getting hired. First class off a list was just as successful as the last class. Essentially the extremely competitive score required to get hired in the past prevented an accurate assessment of the validity of the test.

SATs and other academic standardized tests have similar racial disparities but they can be proven to be accurate predictors of academic success. Thousands of hours and dozens of papers have been devoted to eliminating racial imbalance from these standardized tests, so its not like they have been immune from similar criticism. Recently some universities have gotten away from or at least de-emphasized the importance of standardized testing because of these issues.

The fact of the matter is money = education = opportunity. The majority of inner city youth are minorities and their schools suck. The reasons are many and cover everything from the home to the way this country spends education dollars. Until the education system is fixed this will continue to be a problem.

Disparate Impact? Whats it called when12 black Firefighters charge city hall demanding that the pending promotions of 2 white firefighters is halted?

Whats it called when the black city atty says she "didn't want to promote 2 white Firefighters in fear of a lawsuit from the Black Firefighters? * At the time she was 1st VP of the Black Bar Association for Westchester Co, its all BS!

Thats an equal protection clause violation. From what I caught with your case I was truly shocked with the decision handed down. This has long been debated amongst lawyers and fought in the courts. Where does disparate impact end and equal protection begin? As more of these cases progress through the courts an eventual line will be drawn and then moved and moved some more.

Who is the loser here? All of us! Every citizen of the communities affected by the laws passed by a clueless Congress, and enforced by the ludicrous interpretations by the Judicial Branch. It's not even the fact that we as taxpayers are funding all this idiocy. We are trusting our lives and the lives of our offspring to these ne'er do wells, because I only see it getting worse in the future. It's no longer "God Bless America," it's now "God Help America."

These laws were enacted as part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. his sweeping and critical legislation has done far more good than harm. The Jim Crow south had bullshit laws on the books requiring things like property ownership to vote in a premeditated effort to prevent blacks from integrating into society. The disparate impact clause was written to fight that. The current application is an unintended consequence seized upon by a few opportunistic scum bags and enabled by a lot of guilty self conscious white people. It is being addressed but as it is such a land mine of a subject it will take time to get right.

The most objective judge in the world would still have to rule against the dept's exams. The city couldn't prove their case, it was that simple. Where a reasonable and intelligent judge would have made a difference is in the remediation. Garaufis dropped the ball by pandering to the Vulcans rather than recognizing the real issues.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hired with no reading skills, no ability to do even the simplest math, failed a test that could be passed with flying colors by a grammar school "B" student? Yet he is given a job that requires a working knowledge of things like emergency medicine, physics, chemistry, building construction, laws, rules and regulations, hydraulics, and on and on.

These laws were enacted as part of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. his sweeping and critical legislation has done far more good than harm. The most objective judge in the world would still have to rule against the dept's exams. The city couldn't prove their case, it was that simple. Where a reasonable and intelligent judge would have made a difference is in the remediation. Garaufis dropped the ball by pandering to the Vulcans rather than recognizing the real issues.

We have blamed the legislature, the courts and the vulcans and while they all have a hand in this....The despirate impact has two solutions; One is the supreme court, the other is NYC has to prove that the educational level being tested for is needed. Chief R. has simply listed why firefighters need basic educational skills to perform the job. It is sad that NYC can not (or has not) shown this to the court, because once they prove it is needed to pass the fire acadamy and perform at the minimum standard in the field, then this issue should go away.

[Goose 188]

Affirmative action (reverse racism)

Forget reverse, it's plain jane racism. Without question. This is exactly why i didn't bother to sit for the FDNY exam. When the city called me and asked why i told them it was because i would never be hired. They asked why and i told them because of my skin color, i simply don't fit their hiring profile. The nice lady assured me that NYC was an equal opportunity employer, i respectfully disagreed and that was that.

Being a productive member of society is simply not rewarded these days. The only advice i have for those younger than i is - if you're willing - look south and out west. There are some great jobs - PD / FD and even EMS out there.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Goose

[M' Ave 1,466]

Forget reverse, it's plain jane racism. Without question. This is exactly why i didn't bother to sit for the FDNY exam. When the city called me and asked why i told them it was because i would never be hired. They asked why and i told them because of my skin color, i simply don't fit their hiring profile. The nice lady assured me that NYC was an equal opportunity employer, i respectfully disagreed and that was that.

Being a productive member of society is simply not rewarded these days. The only advice i have for those younger than i is - if you're willing - look south and out west. There are some great jobs - PD / FD and even EMS out there.

You're right about racism. There is no such thing as reverse....

Sad you didn't take he test....you're the one who loses there.... There may be some real B.S. at work here, but everyone still has a fair shot....just like they did in 1999 and 2002.

[wraftery 1,275]

We have blamed the legislature, the courts and the vulcans and while they all have a hand in this....The despirate impact has two solutions; One is the supreme court, the other is NYC has to prove that the educational level being tested for is needed. Chief R. has simply listed why firefighters need basic educational skills to perform the job. It is sad that NYC can not (or has not) shown this to the court, because once they prove it is needed to pass the fire acadamy and perform at the minimum standard in the field, then this issue should go away.

I cannot believe that FDNY has not brought up the points I made in their arguements before the courts. I do believe, on the other hand, that Judge Garufis ignored these arguements along with things like FDNY's large expenditure on minority recruitment.

Hizzhonor may be clueless, a power seeker, a firefighter hater (they are out there, you know), or read Chief Crokers speech out of context (The part about the Fireman's job is considered by some to be a lowly one.)

Think what you may about Dennis Leary, but he said "Firefighters don't pull up to a building and ask 'What floors are the white people on?'"

FDNY has has a black Chief of Dept, Augustus Beekman. NYC has had a black Mayor. We have a black president. Isn't it tme the civil rights acts and affirmitive action come to an end?

If FDNY was really discriminatory, the whole population would be up in arms, not just the Vulcans.

[ny10570 745]

The argument is then that anyone meeting the education requirements has already demonstrated their capability to learn the material being taught. If minorities are still failing at a disproportional rate then the test must be discriminatory.

The judge absolutely dropped the ball when he ignored the substantial improvements the dept had achieved with the pervious test. I think this is where he crossed the line from impartial jurist to buffoon with an axe to grind. Hopefully the appeals process agrees.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

You also have to take into account that even though the test is written to a 6th grade level, a disproportionately high number of white males with college degrees take the test.

Its not that the test is poorly designed or subconsciously racist, its that the people who take it are better educated than the demographic they designed the test for. So realisticly no matter what they do they aren't going to be able to "fix" that (only in America would this be something that an employer would want to fix) without some screwed up process that allows them to reach down on the list for minorities, which is what the Vulcans et. al want.

THIS is why we need to get rid of desparate impact.

[hudson144 150]

As of a recent decision with FDMV the state was not allowed to use the 4/5ths or 80 % rule when scoring the jun 2011 capt/lts exams, in 2004 the lts exam had 37 out of 100 questions deleted from the exam because monorities got them wrong. Through legal channels, which I will in time post on bravo about the actions that we took as plaintiffs the DOJ said no! Well, the results are out and as proof that curves,dumbing down of tests,deleting of questions because of the 4/5ths rules the minority members of FDMV have made it clear that if you work hard and study that you can prevail on these tests. Many times I have seen the complaint that tests are biased, the same complaint that minority members of the Buffalo FD had thrown out of court after a state issued promotional exam was given. Well, hats off to the minority members of FDMV,out of the top 11 on the new lts list 8 are black and 1 is hispanic! Nobody complaining about biased tests here because they worked hard and came out on top on their own! Great job to all who placed on top.

[doz4life 1]

I would like to know if you could help me, where did you get your data regarding the previous promotional exam or how did you go about obtaining it? I would like to do the same.

[Goose 188]

You're right about racism. There is no such thing as reverse....

Sad you didn't take he test....you're the one who loses there.... There may be some real B.S. at work here, but everyone still has a fair shot....just like they did in 1999 and 2002.

Maybe so - but all of this malarky has really put a horrible taste in my mouth for the city - I've cut my losses.....i think my calling is elsewhere anyhow. Besides, there are a lot of young guys out there that want the job more than i ever did - those are the guys who should be on the job.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Goose