Arlington Fire Retains ISO Class 3 Rating

[50-65 205]

Keep up the good work.

PoJo article here:

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20120530/NEWS01/120530022/Arlington-fire-top-5-percent-national-departments?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|News|s

[BFD1054 1,552]

Nice work, congrats to the Arlington FD!

Shows that the AFD has worked hard from top to bottom.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Yes its great that Arlington has maintained their ISO 3 PPC Rating.

But it does not take hard work to maintain ones ISO level (as long as the politicians do not cut personnel, apparatus or stations), it takes hard work to improve it.

The ISO PPC ratings are an open book test:

PPC#1 = 100%-90% (A)

PPC#2 = 89.9%-80% (

PPC#3 = 79.9%-70% ©

PPC#4 = 69.9%-60% (D-F)

PPC#5 = 59.9%-50%

PPC#6 = 49.9%-40%

PPC#7 = 39.9%-30%

PPC#8 = 29.9%-20%

PPC#9 = 19.9%-10%

PPC#10 = No Fire Dept.

NYS ratings are as follows:

2 Communities are PPC#1

24 Communities are PPC#2

219 Communities are PPC#3

562 Communities are PPC#4

595 Communities are PPC#5

274 Communities are PPC#6

69 Communities are PPC#7

12 Communities are PPC#8

120 Communities are PPC#8B

607 Communities are PPC#9

33 Communities are PPC#10

So the insurance industry says that approximatly 79% (1991) of the communities in NYS recieved a failing grade for there fire protection efforts and every property owner will recieve higher premiums in those communities.

Note: Communities may have more than 1 rating (called a split rating)

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Question..the 33 communities that have a #10 rating...no fire dept.....what does this really mean. Is it a fire protection district that gets rated with no physical FD or is there an organization that is a fire dept. in place.

[38ff 250]

The municipal water system (or lack there of) drops down alot of depts ISO ratings, and thats something that is out of the FD hands. Many rural depts in my area are split rating. 3 or4 in the hyranted water district, and and 8's or 9's out of it. Yes, tankers do help alot, but you'd need a ton of tankers to make up for it. I recently attended a meeting where they had an ISO speaker explain for several hours the whole rating system. There are other factors that are (sometimes) out of the FD'd hands, dispatching and water systems (40%). Until my local politicians decide to expand the municipal water system (at a cost of multi millions of $$) my dept will be hard pressed to go from a split rating to a 3, but we are working on going from a 9 to a 8a or b. The first # is within 5 road miles and within 1000 feet of a hyrdant, the second # is for structures within 5 road miles, but beyond 1000 feet of a hydrant.

I would hardly call a ISO class 4 or below a "failure" of the fire dept.

Edited June 1, 2012 by 38ff

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Using the Bell curve they would certainly not fail!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Is it true that the savings (or increase) to insurance premiums as a result of ISO almost negligible for a single family residential home? I had heard that somewhere but don't know the numbers myself to be able to agree or disagree.

Milford, CT had an ISO Class 1 rating and many corporate headquarters (Shick, Bic, Subway, etc) were or are located there as a result. I think they had an issue recently that caused it to drop down to a 2, but I believe they're prepping for a re-evaluation because they fixed whatever was wrong.

[38ff 250]

A very quick overview of how ISO computes their ratings from their website,

http://www.iso.com/Products/Public-Protection-Classification-Service/Fire-Suppression-Rating-Schedule-FSRS-manual-for-PPC-grading.html

[ny10570 745]

The municipal water system (or lack there of) drops down alot of depts ISO ratings, and thats something that is out of the FD hands. Many rural depts in my area are split rating. 3 or4 in the hyranted water district, and and 8's or 9's out of it. Yes, tankers do help alot, but you'd need a ton of tankers to make up for it. I recently attended a meeting where they had an ISO speaker explain for several hours the whole rating system. There are other factors that are (sometimes) out of the FD'd hands, dispatching and water systems (40%). Until my local politicians decide to expand the municipal water system (at a cost of multi millions of $$) my dept will be hard pressed to go from a split rating to a 3, but we are working on going from a 9 to a 8a or b. The first # is within 5 road miles and within 1000 feet of a hyrdant, the second # is for structures within 5 road miles, but beyond 1000 feet of a hydrant.

I would hardly call a ISO class 4 or below a "failure" of the fire dept.

You can do it without running hydrants through your entire district or without buying a fleet of tankers. Simple things like automatic mutual aid and equipment standardization can get you the water flow you need to improve your rating.

[38ff 250]

Correct, but from my understanding, thats not as "good" as having a Hydrant system or your own "water on wheels"

[Bnechis 3,961]

Question..the 33 communities that have a #10 rating...no fire dept.....what does this really mean. Is it a fire protection district that gets rated with no physical FD or is there an organization that is a fire dept. in place.

1st ISO does not rate fire departments, they rate fire protection in a communitiy. It is possible that the communities do not have fire dept. It is also possible that some communities are using fire departments that are to far away to be effective. (ISO generally considers more than 5 miles to be effective).

[GoDucks23 6]

Great Job Arlington! As a resident of the Arlington Fire District i could not feel more safe and more confident in their services. Both the career and volunteer sides (though they may squabble at times and have their issues with one another) work very well together once the bell rings. At least from what i can see as a civilian. Their response times and the manpower is 2nd to none in the area in my opinion and I have no issues with the taxes that i pay for their services. I sleep good at night knowing what crew is out their to answer the call should the need arise. So again great job and keep on doing what you do!

[spin_the_wheel 460]

1st ISO does not rate fire departments, they rate fire protection in a communitiy. It is possible that the communities do not have fire dept. It is also possible that some communities are using fire departments that are to far away to be effective. (ISO generally considers more than 5 miles to be effective).

Thanks for the info..very interesting the whole ISO concept. I read somewhere that some states and insurance companies are not using the ISO grade anymore and are going to a fire loss per zip code to make rates. Any info on this?

[38ff 250]

I read the same thing, but am curious as to how they determine the rate of loss.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The municipal water system (or lack there of) drops down alot of depts ISO ratings, and thats something that is out of the FD hands.

Yes it is, but that does not mean the FD should give up. There are FD's without municipal water systems that are ISO 4 and those with a minimal system that are ISO 3. They did not blame the lack of system, they went out and figured out how best to fight a fire without it.

Many rural depts in my area are split rating. 3 or4 in the hyranted water district, and and 8's or 9's out of it. Yes, tankers do help alot, but you'd need a ton of tankers to make up for it.......There are other factors that are (sometimes) out of the FD'd hands, dispatching and water systems (40%).

Yes many are split. A ton of tankers? Do you know what is actually needed or are you guessing? And if the water supply is out of the FD's hands (No municipal system) then what is the plan for fire attack? Does the FD have a plan or have they told the community that they have no ability to fight fire?

I see many depts without hydrants that have spent a lot of time and money training to move water, but they are not getting credit for it...why?

Until my local politicians decide to expand the municipal water system (at a cost of multi millions of $$) my dept will be hard pressed to go from a split rating to a 3, but we are working on going from a 9 to a 8a or b.

Adding a municipal system is not likely in most places.

What does it take to be an ISO 9?

4 volunteers (one assigned as chief), with 1 hour per month of training (that includes intitial training) and 1 "fire truck" with 300 gallons of water, a 50 gpm pump (at 150 psi), 600 feet of booster and/or small attack hose, and some hand tools.

What does it take to be an ISO 8B?

a minimum of 6 responders (average) to fires, 24 hours training per year (per member) and 4,000 gallons of water (plus be a 9). They do not care how you get the 4,000 gallons there (so 2 engines with 1,000 gal and 1 with 2,000 gets you there or any other combination). Auto aid can be used for the water & manpower.

So you show ISO you do this and they lower the rating and most private residential properties can get up to 8% off their fire insurance premium. So 607 communities in NYS could drop from 9 to 8b if they can manage to do this.

Now if you can not do this, how do you fight fire?

I would hardly call a ISO class 4 or below a "failure" of the fire dept.

1st I did not say below a 4 is a "failure" of the fire dept. its a failure of the communities fire protection (which covers more than just the FD).

2nd what do you get on your school report card when you get below 65%? ............a chance to repeat the class till you pass.

If an FD gets a 4 without a municipal water supply, their actual score (not the communities) is in the high 80's or 90's.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is it true that the savings (or increase) to insurance premiums as a result of ISO almost negligible for a single family residential home? I had heard that somewhere but don't know the numbers myself to be able to agree or disagree.

It varies based on a number of factors, but generally each PPC level is worth about 8%, which depending on home value could be $50 to $500 per home per year. So moving up 3 or 4 slots could be a nice amount of cash when adding up every home in a district.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You can do it without running hydrants through your entire district or without buying a fleet of tankers. Simple things like automatic mutual aid and equipment standardization can get you the water flow you need to improve your rating.

Correct, but from my understanding, thats not as "good" as having a Hydrant system or your own "water on wheels"

Its clearly not as good as having a municipal system (hydrants). But ISO does not care if you have tankers or not. If you chose to prove you can move the water, they set a senario based on the fire flow needs in your communitiy and you prove you can develop a 250gpm flow (or more) within 5 minutes of arrival and maintain it for at least 2 hours. "Water on wheels" is a good way to do it, but there are others.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks for the info..very interesting the whole ISO concept. I read somewhere that some states and insurance companies are not using the ISO grade anymore and are going to a fire loss per zip code to make rates. Any info on this?

I read the same thing, but am curious as to how they determine the rate of loss.

This has come up a few times over the years, but only in 2 or 3 states. Allstate did this in Texas 15+ years ago and then went back to ISO when they found it was cheaper to let ISO rate the community then for Allstate to do it.

The problem with using fire loss is most communities do not have enough fire loss in a given year (or years) to statistically calculate a loss rate for insurance. And one major loss in a year will throw the whole calculation off.

I only know of one location that "fire loss' is use to determine the rate and that is NYC. Even after 9/11 the 2001 the total fire loss in NYC was statistically almost the same as any other year. And in dollar loss it has been consistant (factoring inflation) over any 10 year period during the past 30+ years. NYC is hurt by this system as they rate an ISO PPC #4 and in their case it is no reflection on the firefighting ability of the FDNY. Because of high life safety issues (which ISO does not consider), FDNY tactics use larger water flows than most FD's are capable of. From a damage perspective FDNY may stop more fire, thus save lives (and preventing major exposure isues), but tend to have higher water damage to the primary building. They also do limited salvage work, therefore the "fire" damage tends to be higher in a dollar amount and ISO rates them based on the dollar loss

[sfrd18 360]

I believe the only two ISO Class # 1 fire departments in the State of New York are Syracuse and White Plains, correct. Also, the only ones in New England are Milford, CT(not sure if it still is), Hartford, CT, and Cambridge, MA.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This has come up a few times over the years, but only in 2 or 3 states. Allstate did this in Texas 15+ years ago and then went back to ISO when they found it was cheaper to let ISO rate the community then for Allstate to do it.

The problem with using fire loss is most communities do not have enough fire loss in a given year (or years) to statistically calculate a loss rate for insurance. And one major loss in a year will throw the whole calculation off.

I only know of one location that "fire loss' is use to determine the rate and that is NYC. Even after 9/11 the 2001 the total fire loss in NYC was statistically almost the same as any other year. And in dollar loss it has been consistant (factoring inflation) over any 10 year period during the past 30+ years. NYC is hurt by this system as they rate an ISO PPC #4 and in their case it is no reflection on the firefighting ability of the FDNY. Because of high life safety issues (which ISO does not consider), FDNY tactics use larger water flows than most FD's are capable of. From a damage perspective FDNY may stop more fire, thus save lives (and preventing major exposure isues), but tend to have higher water damage to the primary building. They also do limited salvage work, therefore the "fire" damage tends to be higher in a dollar amount and ISO rates them based on the dollar loss

Now...did FDNY rate lower when the Fire Patrol was in service? I know they were not part of the FDNY, but would they have been rated as part of the total ISO grade? Thanks for the info.

[16fire5 693]

I always enjoy the insight that Barry gives on this topic.

I think a lot of people are missing the point when he refers to failing and open book tests. ISO tells you what they are asking for and many communites have the equipment and manpower to be rated lower than they actually are. It's fair to guess that most of those ISO 9s could achieve a lower rating with some minimal work.

If you have done your homework you can show how you are saving everyone some money.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I believe the only two ISO Class # 1 fire departments in the State of New York are Syracuse and White Plains, correct. Also, the only ones in New England are Milford, CT(not sure if it still is), Hartford, CT, and Cambridge, MA.

That was correct as of a year or 2 ago, I do not know if they still are.

Now...did FDNY rate lower when the Fire Patrol was in service? I know they were not part of the FDNY, but would they have been rated as part of the total ISO grade? Thanks for the info.

No the only thing they were rated on was the total damage paid out for damage. While the patrol would have reduced the cost for specific buildings the amount out of the total citywide damage was very small. Consider that the loss of all the buildings at the WTC did not change the rate more than 1%.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I always enjoy the insight that Barry gives on this topic.

I think a lot of people are missing the point when he refers to failing and open book tests. ISO tells you what they are asking for and many communites have the equipment and manpower to be rated lower than they actually are. It's fair to guess that most of those ISO 9s could achieve a lower rating with some minimal work.

If you have done your homework you can show how you are saving everyone some money.

Thanks 16Fire, thats exactly what my point is.

[SOUSGT 357]

Thanks for the info..very interesting the whole ISO concept. I read somewhere that some states and insurance companies are not using the ISO grade anymore and are going to a fire loss per zip code to make rates. Any info on this?

The problem with using a zipcode is that in some areas this is not an accurate indication of what department covers what area. Thus the coverage can vary within the same zipcode. The Postal Service drew the lines not based on municipalities but what the office could handle. For example the Scarsdale zipcode covers Scarsdale, and parts of New Rochelle, Town of Mamaroneck and at one point parts of Yonkers and Greenburg. Parts of North Yonkers have a village zipcode. Parts of New Rochelle have a Larchmont zipcode.

The Larchmont zipcode covers the Village of Larchmont, Town of Mamaroneck and parts of the Village of Mamaroneck.

Confusing isnt it.

[Arrowxt 8]

Good job Arlington Fire District! Congrats.

We were able to lower our rating and are working on shaving a few more points off the next time we are evaluated. Hydrants can make a difference but there is a department that achieved a 1 without a municipal water district. Pre planning, mutual aid and training can all be improved upon until you achieve the 1 level. Also be aware of the "grey" areas where moving up a notch doesn’t really make a change on how insurance companies view as a positive or make changes to policy holder premiums. Meaning sometimes trying to move up one level doesn't really make a difference so sometimes departments will over spend on equipment/buildings when the money could be better spent on training or admin. i.e.; 5 could = 7 and 7 could = 5 in the eyes of insurance company. Making your department better and community safer is priceless, so the road to 1 is a noble one.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Hydrants can make a difference but there is a department that achieved a 1 without a municipal water district.

Which dept is that? The only one I am aware of that came close is Fallon NV. They are an ISO split of 1 / 4 (in the non-hydrant area).

Since you lose 40% for no hydrants, the best score you can get is 60% if FD and Communications are perfect. (the FD rating is a 1, but the community is a 4 then).

[spin_the_wheel 460]

We just finished a review from ISO 2 months ago. We went from a 4 rating to a 2. Anyone with questions on what went on can send me a PM.

One thing I can say is if your Dept. is not good at keeping records..on everything your going to have a real hard time.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We just finished a review from ISO 2 months ago. We went from a 4 rating to a 2. Anyone with questions on what went on can send me a PM.

One thing I can say is if your Dept. is not good at keeping records..on everything your going to have a real hard time.

Great Job

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Thank you Cap. Your many posts about the ISO over the last year or so came in handy. Two thumbs up!

Thanks again and Be Safe.