Apparatus Identifiers

[Remember585 815]

This is not a dig at any one apparatus or department, please don't think it is.

Why aren't we calling apparatus what they are? For example, there's a few apparatus in Westchester that are Engines with Rescue capabilities being called "Rescue's." Examples are Armonk R85, Pleasantville R47, Thornwood R75 & West Harrison's burnt-up Rescue 35. I personally like the designations of "Squad" for these types of apparatus - it works in so many other areas of this country, why can't it work here?

**These comments are mine and do not represent or reflect on any affiliations I may have.**

Edited May 26, 2012 by Remember585

[SECTMB 612]

It would seem to make simple sense to identify an apparatus by its primary function even though it may provide additional specialty functions such as extrication or cascade capabilities for example. We seem to be specifying apparatus to do more functions so maybe it is time to define the term Squad and identify the apparatus that falls into that category accordingly.

And, I'll never get the hang of identifying Putnam County apparatus. That numbering system escapes me.

[FF398 45]

It would seem to make simple sense to identify an apparatus by its primary function even though it may provide additional specialty functions such as extrication or cascade capabilities for example. We seem to be specifying apparatus to do more functions so maybe it is time to define the term Squad and identify the apparatus that falls into that category accordingly.

And, I'll never get the hang of identifying Putnam County apparatus. That numbering system escapes me.

In regards to how Putnam County identifies their apparatus, check out this link off Radio Reference it may help:

Putnam County Fire Apparatus

DEPARTMENTS

• 11 Brewster
  
• 12 Carmel
  
• 13 Cold Spring
  
• 14 Continental Village
  
• 15 Garrison
  
• 16 Kent
  
• 17 Lake Carmel
  
• 18 Mahopac
  
• 19 Mahopac Falls
  
• 20 Nelsonville *
  
  • Nelsonville Fire Company dissolved
    

  [*]21 North Highlands

  [*]22 Patterson

  [*]23 Putnam Lake

  [*]24 Putnam Valley

  [*]31 Carmel Ambulance

  [*]32 Garrison Ambulance

  [*]33 Philipstown Ambulance

  [*]34 Putnam Valley Ambulance

UNIT NUMBERS

Dept.-Type-ID

• Officers
  
  • XX-1-1 Agency Chief
    
  • XX-1-2 Agency First Asst. Chief
    
  • XX-1-3 Agency Second Asst. Chief
    
  • XX-1-4 Amb. Corp. Captain
    

Vehicles

• XX-2-X Pumper
  
• XX-3-X Utility Vehicle
  
• XX-4-X Tanker
  
• XX-5-X Aerial Apparatus
  
• XX-6-X Rescue Vehicle
  
• XX-7-X Ambulance
  

from the radio reference.com link: http://wiki.radioref...tnam_County_(NY)

Edited May 27, 2012 by FF398

[FightingIrish 7]

Something that should of been done a long time ago with unit numbering. A good idea would be each county should have a county number in NYS and follow it be the department number. For example lets make dutchess county 9 and city of beacon is 33 so plain speak the apparatus before hand. ( engine 933) If there are two engines or more Engine 933 A, B, C. Just call each apparatus for what it is ambulance, rescue engine, squad, truck, tower, tiller, engine, brush, chief, tanker. etc. Several other states have devloped this and it really works wonders espically for out of county mutual aid. This is simply becuase, A its plain speak and B you dont have to figure out what 9-89-12 actually means.

[ny10570 745]

State wide would be entirely too many numbers. NYC alone has over 200 engines. Even if they did the old exemption to cities with1,000,000 residents I'm sure there's enough apparatus to overwhelm a statewide system.

[FightingIrish 7]

Each county would still have thier own systems it would just interface between counties alot easier

[helicopper 1,050]

This is not a dig at any one apparatus or department, please don't think it is.

Why aren't we calling apparatus what they are? For example, there's a few apparatus in Westchester that are Engines with Rescue capabilities being called "Rescue's." Examples are Armonk R85, Pleasantville R47, Thornwood R75 & West Harrison's burnt-up Rescue 35. I personally like the designations of "Squad" for these types of apparatus - it works in so many other areas of this country, why can't it work here?

**These comments are mine and do not represent or reflect on any affiliations I may have.**

I thought squads were more than just a traditional rescue on an engine platform? Don't they also have haz-mat/collapse/CBRNE training and response capabilities? To call all engines with a tool or more complex rescue-engines a squad would make it even more confusing (at least to me).

Why not simply call them "RESCUE-ENGINE"? Just two more syllables, no more numbers, and it clearly identifies what they are? Considering how much chatter their is on the radios anyway, two more syllables would hardly be noticeable.

[BFD1054 1,552]

It would seem to make simple sense to identify an apparatus by its primary function even though it may provide additional specialty functions such as extrication or cascade capabilities for example. We seem to be specifying apparatus to do more functions so maybe it is time to define the term Squad and identify the apparatus that falls into that category accordingly.

And, I'll never get the hang of identifying Putnam County apparatus. That numbering system escapes me.

Try understanding Orange County lol. I'm just getting a hang of it and they're totally re-numbering all apparatus!

[grumpyff 1,159]

Not sure if some of those units carry enough hose to be considered an Engine. The may physically capable of carrying it, but for whatever reason the hose just is not there

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

60-Control Designation for Engine:

Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted fire pump of at least 750gpm capacity, and a

minimum water tank of 300 gallons. Hose storage of 30ft for 2 ½” or larger diameter hose, and 2

areas, each a minimum of 3.5ft. to accommodate pre-connected fire hose lines. This apparatus may

be equipped with an aerial device such as a tele-squirt.

Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted fire pump of at least 750gpm capacity, and a

minimum water tank of 300 gallons. Hose storage of 30ft for 2 ½” or larger diameter hose, and 2

areas, each a minimum of 3.5ft. to accommodate pre-connected fire hose lines. This apparatus may

be equipped with an aerial device such as a tele-squirt.

Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted fire pump of at least 750gpm capacity, and a

minimum water tank of 300 gallons. Hose storage of 30ft for 2 ½” or larger diameter hose, and 2

areas, each a minimum of 3.5ft. to accommodate pre-connected fire hose lines. This apparatus may

be equipped with an aerial device such as a tele-squirt.

Fire apparatus with a permanently mounted fire pump of at least 750gpm capacity, and a

minimum water tank of 300 gallons. Hose storage of 30ft for 2 ½” or larger diameter hose, and 2

areas, each a minimum of 3.5ft. to accommodate pre-connected fire hose lines. This apparatus may

be equipped with an aerial device such as a tele-squirt.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Pleasantville Rescue 47 took the place of Patrol 7. The truck is maintained and manned by the Pleasantville Fire Patrol company. The county disbanded the designation of patrol and the new truck was given the designation as Rescue 47. It is a rescue pumper but there is no such county designation for such a truck. There is talk of trying to switch to squad but, like Helicopper said, this had staffing/training requirements and may not be possible.

I agree with the idea of redoing designations so that they are more accurate. This is an issue state-wide...probably even country-wide. For example, some places use tanker to designate trucks that are actually tenders and have a pump or don't have a pump. Other counties use pumper tanker for tenders with pumps and tanker for tenders without pumps. Some counties use Rescue as the designation for a utility suburban or CFR response vehicle. Organizing and unifying it a bit would definitely be nice.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We seem to be specifying apparatus to do more functions so maybe it is time to define the term Squad and identify the apparatus that falls into that category accordingly.

The term Squad is the only apparatus in the county system that is properly defined:

"A vehicle(s) consisting of at least an Engine with or without other support vehicles (i.e.:

Rescue, Ladder, or Utility Type), equipped with additional and specific equipment to handle

hazardous materials / WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) and/or technical rescue, that will

respond with a minimum of six (6) trained and certified members, included a company officer.

For hazmat and WMD the minimum training level shall be Haz-Mat Technician (as identified under OSHA

1910.120) and the squad shall have the equipment necessary to perform air monitoring, level “A” suit and

decontamination.

For technical rescue the minimum training level shall be based on NFPA 1670. All members shall be at the

technician level for structural collapse, trench rescue and confined space rescue and at the operations level for rope

rescue. The squad shall have the equipment necessary to initiate a response, safely size up and identify additional

resources required to safely mitigate these incidents."

The basic engine definition does not include training or personnel so an engine with no driver or firefighters is still called an engine, but its useless.

To call all engines with a tool or more complex rescue-engines a squad would make it even more confusing (at least to me). Why not simply call them "RESCUE-ENGINE"?

Would that make our ladders RESCUE-LADDERS (they carry extrication tools, air bags, cribbing, etc.)?

My problem with any designation of a rescue is it needs to include capabliities (NIMS TYPING?). We have rescues (light) on a pick-up chassis called the same as a 24' tandum axle heavy rescue. We have "Heavy Rescue's" that do not carry enough equipment to handle a 2 car MVA and Medium Rescues that carry much more. And while a rescue engine can do a lot, I have yet to see one that carry's enough cripping and hose to do both jobs well.

The term "heavy rescue" should be based on its capabilities not on the weight of the truck.

Not sure if some of those units carry enough hose to be considered an Engine. The may physically capable of carrying it, but for whatever reason the hose just is not there

Does it roll with trained personnel? Hose can't stretch itself.

[38ff 250]

Call for a "Tanker" on the East Coast, your going to get a lot of water on wheels. Call for a "Tanker" on the West Coast, your getting a lot water flying thru the air. We cant standardize on much of anything in the fire service...

[SECTMB 612]

Something that should of been done a long time ago with unit numbering. A good idea would be each county should have a county number in NYS and follow it be the department number. For example lets make dutchess county 9 and city of beacon is 33 so plain speak the apparatus before hand. ( engine 933) If there are two engines or more Engine 933 A, B, C. Just call each apparatus for what it is ambulance, rescue engine, squad, truck, tower, tiller, engine, brush, chief, tanker. etc. Several other states have devloped this and it really works wonders espically for out of county mutual aid. This is simply becuase, A its plain speak and B you dont have to figure out what 9-89-12 actually means.

How about just calling it Beacon Engine 933. Isn't that really plain enough? That's why I do like Westchester's apparatus id over Rockland, Putnam etc. It's much more in line with plain speak.

[grumpyff 1,159]

One problem with the Putnam system, other than you have to know what the numbers mean, is in portable identification. Since nearly every department has a XX-2-1 often times on a fire scene it gets shortened to say 2-1 Officer to Command. Fine if only one department is operating at a scene, but confusing where multiple departments are working together. Its a hard habit to break.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Does it roll with trained personnel? Hose can't stretch itself.

That's a given. I have seen aerial devices that will self stow, but not one that will set up and extend to the roof at the push of a button. Now if they could put that on a remote...

Edited May 27, 2012 by grumpyff

[dwcfireman 656]

Why aren't we calling apparatus what they are? For example, there's a few apparatus in Westchester that are Engines with Rescue capabilities being called "Rescue's." Examples are Armonk R85, Pleasantville R47, Thornwood R75 & West Harrison's burnt-up Rescue 35. I personally like the designations of "Squad" for these types of apparatus - it works in so many other areas of this country, why can't it work here?

I brought this up in a forum a while back when I was trying to figure out why quints are called ladders in Westchester. The best explanation I could put together is that apparatus designation is based upon local or county level authorities and how they decide to define each designation. So, where I am from upstate, a ladder with a pump is called a quint, but Westchester calls it a ladder. And a squad upstate would be more like a utiliy or light rescue in Westchester.

Call for a "Tanker" on the East Coast, your going to get a lot of water on wheels. Call for a "Tanker" on the West Coast, your getting a lot water flying thru the air. We cant standardize on much of anything in the fire service...

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have a nationwide system that tells us what each piece of apparatus should be called? I say this with complete sarcasm as I believe NFPA has a publication that addresses this issue.