Westchester County Special Operations

[JM15 386]

What makes you think this? They aren't "better trained" then anyone else, besides, the career members who have a ton of training would probably know a little more than the volunteers who know little, especially in that position...Dont ya think?

What do you mean by that? Can you slow down and compose your thoughts into sentences please.

[Bnechis 3,961]

For Example

Lets say Purchase has some type of foam unit, that there members train on and can respond county wide.

There is a county owned foam trailer in White Plains. The station is manned 24/7 and by the time it gets anywhere its almost to late. Purchase is only a few miles away, is unmanned, do you think it will get out any faster?

Lets say we have some type of Scuba water rescue team in Mamaroneck that could respond to county wide emergencies.

Mamaroneck had a dive team, it fell apart years ago. It is very hard to keep a specialty team alive when it does no calls.

Lets say we have some type of Decon unit in Scarsdale that could also respond to county wide incidents and that members would be trained on.

After 9/11 the County recieved 6 WMD Squad Trailers and 3 Decon Trailers, plus the county Purchased 2 more Decon Trailers and Briarcliff purchased one (AFG grant funded). We set up 6 Volunteer Decon Units, Each was made up of at least 5 volunteer depts. (and local EMS was asked to participate with them). The policy was the VFD's would train and respond together. They needed to respond with the trailer and an engine plus 12 ff's/2 officers (we figured with the number of depts that that would not strip anyone). The units were to go to Greenburgh (the villages, as Fairview, Greenville & Hartsdale are set up as a squad), The sound Shore, North Castle, Town of Bedford & Town of Cortland, plus Briarcliff was going to add theirs with Ossining/Croton.

Greenburgh turned it down, The others all trained and agreed to train and do at least 1 drill per year. I believe that 2 of the trailers were returned to DES and I do not know if any of the others have done any training or drills in 5 years. I suspect if we open the trailers we will find lots of cob webs.

Lets say we have a collapse/Trench Rescue team in harrison that members would be trained on and COuld respond to county wide emergencies.

There are a ton more i could list any input would be great good or bad.

See Below for Trench.

When California Closets in Hawthorne Colapsed a few years ago (Tornado strike). Greenville, New Rochelle, Yonkers had over 60 Collapse Tech's (NFPA 1670) responders with 3 collapse units on scene within 22 minutes after the collapse. The local FD's (5 or 6) were able to muster less than half that number of firefighters (untrained in tech rescue) and a good number of them were Sr.'s, Jr.'s or exterior members. How do you expect them to handle the training and equipment for tech rescue?

Since most depts. (vol., combo & career) are suffering from lack of manpower, maybe we really need to concentrate on getting the basics covered 1st. We have a huge difference in training levels and if you think that volunteer depts should add 100's of hours per year in training, then maybe it should be in firefighting, which is what they are chartered to do, before we add other responsibilities which they are not responsable for.

I feel if Volunteer Companies Ran some of the special operations units that they would be called on more.

There are 5 Trench Rescue units in the county, 3 respond together (Greenville, New Rochelle, Yonkers). The 3 average 1 or 2 calls/year in half the county. The County team I do not beleive has had a call yet. Maybe if you think the companies would get more calls, they should go out and start collapsing trenches. Same holds true for the other specialties.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I really think Westchester county needs a water rescue team for the sound shore, calling on Yorktown or somers is ridiculous. I can think of at least 6 water related deaths in the past 6 years just in mamaroneck alone.

It is clear from this and all the other posts that we 1st need to define "Water Rescue Team" - There are 5 different types: Dive Rescue, Swift Water, Ice Rescue, Ocean/Deep Water Rescue and Still Water. They are drimatically different and there are differnet units out there.

Every FD that has water must have a basic or still water and many do. The Town of Mamaroneck does, NRFD L13 & R4 both are set up for it. Eastchester does, etc. We just don't call them "teams" because its just part of what companies do. Same for Ice Rescue.

Swift water and dive are major specialties that require lots of equipment and training. Our swiftwater/flood equipment cost $30,000 not including boats. The initial training is 40 hours and you need annual recertification.

Dive Rescue cost even more and takes much more training. And while its called Dive "RESCUE" in most cases it is body recovery. In the 6 Mamaroneck cases, "dive teams" were not called until the victims were missing for hours. So they were body recoveries.

There were at least 3 Dive rescue teams on the sound shore, 2 disbanded because of lack of interest and the other due to funding.

The county's Rescue Team has a division of water rescue tech's and are willing to go anywhere... ..

A swift water team, not a dive team as FDNY41 was looking for.

I just think the water rescue teams should be placed in better locations, with all the flooding and bodies of water in the sound shore i think it would be very beneficial to have one in lower Westchester.

Agreed, but just because they are not called "teams" does not mean they do not exist.

how many departments in Westchester have an automatic aid agreement where a special ops resource is automatically dispatched by 60 control with the tones from the host department. Not many if any. The dispatch of the special unit with the tones of the host department can cut valuable minutes off the response time that would be much longer if units wait to get on scene and confirm an incident.

Nice concept, but what equipment should be sent? until you give a report it may vary. And 60 did auto send WSOTF to your collapse without an auto aid agreement. If the call sounds like it is needed, the IC can ask before anyone gets there. Also the number of false calls, may cause drop in volunteer response.

Not to single out any agency but the example of the sound shore area was used so we will stick with it request Yorktown, Somers, Irvington dive at dispatch, or look just north to Stanford and Greenwhich Ct. for water rescue resources and start them out immediately, this will help get the unit on scene faster and also justifies the need for that type of unit in that area.

Also the biggest issue is drop the career volunteer stuff and call the closest trained resource or heck call multiple resources its better to overwhelm an incident rather then nickel and dime and run short of trained personnel.

The intial call is for a missing person, so FD may not even get called. Then do you send a dive time from Yorktown or a surface unit from Town of Mamaroneck.

We have responded to Hawthorn, Purchase, Rye, Mamaroneck for collapse, trench rescues and hazmat. And to Orange County for floods and the Northern section of the state for Ice Storms. In most of those responses Yonkers, Greenville, White Plains and other career depts have also responded. So this is not an issue from the career depts in WSOTF.

You NEVER want to overwhelm a technical rescue incident with muiltiple resouces (that do not train together). It causes many issues as we saw in Tarrytown (were ego's got in the way for 1 agency).

[JM15 386]

There are 5 Trench Rescue units in the county, 3 respond together (Greenville, New Rochelle, Yonkers). The 3 average 1 or 2 calls/year in half the county. The County team I do not beleive has had a call yet. Maybe if you think the companies would get more calls, they should go out and start collapsing trenches. Same holds true for the other specialties.

Just to clarify the county team has had calls. Including a trench rescue. See below link for the IA

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/43584-somers-technical-rescue-10-24-11/page__hl__%2Bsomers+%2Btrench

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just to clarify the county team has had calls. Including a trench rescue. See below link for the IA

http://www.emtbravo....+somers +trench

Ok, I either missed or forgot that one.

[JM15 386]

Ok, I either missed or forgot that one.

No worries I enjoyed your post. I just wanted to makes sure that correct information was out there to keep the discussion going.

[fdny41 11]

I just dont know how a lot of li volunteer departments are able to maintain many great rescue teams.

[JM15 386]

Im not familiar with Long Island Rescue operations.. Can you provide examples?

[fdny41 11]

Bethpage has a good tech rescue team, North bellmore, etc . I think partly because they have a lot of fdny members who are well trained and are members of the li volunteer departments. Photos from a Trench rescue thats occured in rosyln and even called fdny to the job - http://www.firstonscenephotos.com/Roslyn-1/Roslyn-Peacock-Drive-12082009/10587190_SQhMq4#!i=735821974&k=UsubH

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Tanker 10eng, on 07 May 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

" The county's Rescue Team has a division of water rescue tech's and are willing to go anywhere... .."

A swift water team, not a dive team as FDNY41 was looking for.

actually Barry, I have reread this whole thread and no where does FDNY41 say a dive team.... correct me if I am wrong... He does mention a Scuba water rescue team.... that opens the door for many different aspects of water rescue... ( Dive, swift and basic water rescue )

[Bnechis 3,961]

actually Barry, I have reread this whole thread and no where does FDNY41 say a dive team.... correct me if I am wrong... He does mention a Scuba water rescue team.... that opens the door for many different aspects of water rescue... ( Dive, swift and basic water rescue )

My point was exactly that. There are many different types and since the examples were based on incidents in Mamaroneck that requested Dive Rescue, my point was the DES team is not Dive Rescue, it is swift water (which in my mind is much more important, since it is used to save live victims, while dive rescue unless it is there fast (like NYS Air/Sea Rescue) is mostly for recovery).

[SageVigiles 1,194]

My point was exactly that. There are many different types and since the examples were based on incidents in Mamaroneck that requested Dive Rescue, my point was the DES team is not Dive Rescue, it is swift water (which in my mind is much more important, since it is used to save live victims, while dive rescue unless it is there fast (like NYS Air/Sea Rescue) is mostly for recovery).

Definitely agreed. Everybody always seems to push for SCUBA. Which is important, but realistically it IS going to be a recovery operation. I think thats why in CT most of the SCUBA units are PD, since it is an evidence recovery scenario. The only fire/EMS based dive-teams I know off the top of my head are Milford FD (which uses theirs VERY often), Newtown Underwater Search and Rescue (I believe they do swift water as well) and Thomaston Regional. I know there are a few more but again, most are PD controlled.

Swiftwater rescue is a MUCH more useful skill in terms of life safety and is, in my opinion, way more dangerous. Particularly because everyone THINKS they can just swim out to rescue someone in a swiftwater scenario. Most people are intelligent enough to realize they aren't diving 50 feet underwater to pull someone up without expensive SCUBA gear.

I also agree that ANY agency with water in their territory should have a stillwater and ice/coldwater rescue training program and equipment cache. That's just a bread and butter rescue call for anyone.

[Fireman488 57]

When California Closets in Hawthorne Colapsed a few years ago (Tornado strike). Greenville, New Rochelle, Yonkers had over 60 Collapse Tech's (NFPA 1670) responders with 3 collapse units on scene within 22 minutes after the collapse. The local FD's (5 or 6) were able to muster less than half that number of firefighters (untrained in tech rescue) and a good number of them were Sr.'s, Jr.'s or exterior members. How do you expect them to handle the training and equipment for tech rescue?

With all due respect to this quote.

The Elmsford Fire Dept responded on mutual aid to this incident with an Engine Company, fully staffed with 6 interior firefighters, arriving on the scene in approximately 5 minutes after being dispatched. We had just returned to quarters from a previous non-storm related run.

The I/C assigned our personnel to search the above mentioned premises. We had completed our primary search; and had verified that all utilities were secure when the above mentioned mutual aid arrived.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When California Closets in Hawthorne Colapsed a few years ago (Tornado strike). Greenville, New Rochelle, Yonkers had over 60 Collapse Tech's (NFPA 1670) responders with 3 collapse units on scene within 22 minutes after the collapse. The local FD's (5 or 6) were able to muster less than half that number of firefighters (untrained in tech rescue) and a good number of them were Sr.'s, Jr.'s or exterior members. How do you expect them to handle the training and equipment for tech rescue?

With all due respect to this quote.

The Elmsford Fire Dept responded on mutual aid to this incident with an Engine Company, fully staffed with 6 interior firefighters, arriving on the scene in approximately 5 minutes after being dispatched. We had just returned to quarters from a previous non-storm related run.

The I/C assigned our personnel to search the above mentioned premises. We had completed our primary search; and had verified that all utilities were secure when the above mentioned mutual aid arrived.

And nothing I said contradicts what you wrote or vis versa. Thats great that EFD showed up quickly and with an appropriate response. When I arrived on scene, I estimated about 30 firefighters on-scene and the majority (that were not from WSOTF) were Jr.'s or Sr's.

[Dinosaur 844]

We need to effect a fundamental change in the fire service because large or small, career or volunteer, we're in trouble. Either from budget woes or declining volunteerism because everyone has to work more and more just to make ends meet.

Call it a revolution, call it a charter revision, call it a constitutional convention, call it Westchester 2025 (although it certainly isn't unique to Westchester) but we have to start the change or we're going to sit and stagnate for another generation.

Elmsford was able to get one fully staffed engine to a building collapse after a tornado while returning from another call. Good for them. The problem remains that we had different departments, with different qualifications respond with different resources and we expect them all to integrate into an effective seamless operation despite having different SOPs, experience, and leadership. Not a recipe for success.

I was recently at a social event attended by many FD officers, mostly chiefs, from a really good cross-section of the fire service (Current, retired, volunteer, career, young, old, even thin and fat ). I really should have taken a picture but to protect the guilty, I didn't. Over several adult beverages we were discussing our issues and don't ya know they were all the same. Budget, staffing, meeting standards, etc.etc.etc.

You can't tell me that the career and fire ISSUES are so different that we can't collaborate and solve them creating a better fire service for the future. FFCogs said it in his letter to the editor about the Stamford situation. We have to identify the goal and move toward it objectively and in the best interests of the public we serve. Not the best interests of one special interest group or another (and I'm sorry to say that the volunteer fire sector is as much a special interest group as unions are - maybe moreso).

One interesting revelation at this airing of the grievances (for all you Seinfeld fans), was that officers are still firefighters and have to perform that way. One chief related a recent experience where there was a good size structure fire (more than room and contents to be sure) and several mutual aid departments. They didn't have enough FF on scene and wound up calling more departments. The next day he was shown a picture of his "command post" where there were TEN (count 'em 10) white helmets and turnout coats standing around him. In the heat of the moment, he never considered it but he had TWO companies there with him that never got used for actual firefighting. He says, in hindsight, he should have tasked most of them with tactical assignments or fireground supervision jobs instead of having the coffee clatch at his ICP. We all laughed but hesitantly because we've all probably done similar things in the past.

Officers also have to be willing to lead by example and get the job done. If more started doing that instead of fighting to protect their sinking ship, we'd probably see conslidation and reorganization start to take hold.

Here endeth the lesson (yes, I have been watching entirely too many old movies lately!).

[Dinosaur 844]

Holy crap, why is the font in my last post so small?

[efdcapt115 1,511]

Dino,

That's an excellently written post. Makes a ton of sense. I'm going to disagree with you on one item. The endorsement of an individual's position in recent news article regarding the Stamford Fire Rescue situation.

I've read enough of that thread to think (I'll not claim to KNOW anything for sure about the SFRD sit.) that there are obstructionists who will not move out of the way and let SFR do what should be done, now. Cover their entire city, get all of these associated agencies in line with what needs to be done. In others words get in line or get out of the way.

Those actions to preserve an organization at the possible expense of lives and property within that district appear to me to be self serving over serving the citizens.

Other than that, you've raised a great point with your opinion, and I respect it.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Dino,

That's an excellently written post. Makes a ton of sense. I'm going to disagree with you on one item. The endorsement of an individual's position in recent news article regarding the Stamford Fire Rescue situation.

I've read enough of that thread to think (I'll not claim to KNOW anything for sure about the SFRD sit.) that there are obstructionists who will not move out of the way and let SFR do what should be done, now. Cover their entire city, get all of these associated agencies in line with what needs to be done. In others words get in line or get out of the way.

Those actions to preserve an organization at the possible expense of lives and property within that district appear to me to be self serving over serving the citizens.

Other than that, you've raised a great point with your opinion, and I respect it.

I believe General Patton said it the best, "Lead me, follow me, or get the hell outta the way"

[Fireman488 57]

When California Closets in Hawthorne Colapsed a few years ago (Tornado strike). Greenville, New Rochelle, Yonkers had over 60 Collapse Tech's (NFPA 1670) responders with 3 collapse units on scene within 22 minutes after the collapse. The local FD's (5 or 6) were able to muster less than half that number of firefighters (untrained in tech rescue) and a good number of them were Sr.'s, Jr.'s or exterior members. How do you expect them to handle the training and equipment for tech rescue?

With all due respect to this quote.

The Elmsford Fire Dept responded on mutual aid to this incident with an Engine Company, fully staffed with 6 interior firefighters, arriving on the scene in approximately 5 minutes after being dispatched. We had just returned to quarters from a previous non-storm related run.

The I/C assigned our personnel to search the above mentioned premises. We had completed our primary search; and had verified that all utilities were secure when the above mentioned mutual aid arrived.

And nothing I said contradicts what you wrote or vis versa. Thats great that EFD showed up quickly and with an appropriate response. When I arrived on scene, I estimated about 30 firefighters on-scene and the majority (that were not from WSOTF) were Jr.'s or Sr's.

Strictly clarifying exactly what happened at this incident.

[mfc442 3]

New Rochelle PD's Harbor unit can provide divers as well as NRPD also having a seperate SCUBA team. They shoud be more then capiable of covering the Mamaroneck area.

[Bnechis 3,961]

New Rochelle PD's Harbor unit can provide divers as well as NRPD also having a seperate SCUBA team. They shoud be more then capiable of covering the Mamaroneck area.

They were defunded last year.

[helicopper 1,050]

New Rochelle PD's Harbor unit can provide divers as well as NRPD also having a seperate SCUBA team. They shoud be more then capiable of covering the Mamaroneck area.

They were defunded last year.

That's what I thought. We trained with them for a while until their funding was cut.

[Pedro911 22]

Helicopper- does the county tech rescue team cross train with county pd aviation?

[helicopper 1,050]

Helicopper- does the county tech rescue team cross train with county pd aviation?

They haven't yet but there have been some preliminary discussions. There are some scenarios where we could support them.

Time will tell.

[Pedro911 22]

I'm glad to hear that Sir, it would seem like a good match. Have you heard of these guys: http://www.priority1airrescue.com/

, seems like a good outfit that could get everyone up to speed if that relationship comes to life.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

It's very very hard to sustain a High angle/collapse/trench rescue team within a single volunteer fire Department. Not impossible but very hard to.

Trying to create a county wide team made up of various volunteer Depts is a better choice, but even that is hard to do. These sort of teams, as has been stated by others, is dependent on constant training. Something hard to do when you are dealing with multiple Dept.s. Schedule a training and a few days before the training... this Dept cant attend because of this reason, this "key" guy has to work overtime, he's sick...very hard to do, again not imposible but hard to do.

What you usually have is 2 or 3 people who start the teams up, who already have most of this training from career jobs. A bunch of young guys get on board who have all the time in the world to train. A few years pass, 2 of the 3 who started the team are no longer involved for various reasons. No one else steps up to be a driving force for the team. The younger kids who had all the time in the world now have jobs that they cant blow off any longer. Maybe are in relationships that take some of their "free time". Moved away or a host of other reasons. In the end you sell off all the stuff. I think one of the Depts in my county ended up selling off everything to Westchester County in fact.

Bottom line, at the very least each department should have a SOP/SOG on Tech rescues. Chiefs and every member of the department should know who has the resources to get the job done and how to get them. Time is a major factor in these events, there should be NO delay in getting the right people and tools in place because you are trying to figure out things for the first time when you pull up. I would have no problem calling in the FDNY for an event in my district. They have the people and every resource available to get the job done. I am humble enough to know this is not my "thing". But I do know where to get what I need, and how to secure the scene and control the firefighters so we dont "screw" things up worse then they are. There is a lot to do while you are waiting for the tech stuff to arrive. Remove surfice victims if any, control of utilites, interview witnesses if you can and more. Take the basic structural collapse operations class given by the State office of fire prevention and control.A must for every Officer in my opinion.

Edited May 19, 2012 by spin_the_wheel

[JM15 386]

I believe it was Syosset that sold their rigs to Westchester county and are now being used as Rescue 77 and Utility 77

[engine51 10]

I just think the water rescue teams should be placed in better locations, with all the flooding and bodies of water in the sound shore i think it would be very beneficial to have one in lower Westchester.

well said, i think there should be one team out of mamaroneck because its a in the center of Weschester's coverage of WLIS

[engine51 10]

My point was exactly that. There are many different types and since the examples were based on incidents in Mamaroneck that requested Dive Rescue, my point was the DES team is not Dive Rescue, it is swift water (which in my mind is much more important, since it is used to save live victims, while dive rescue unless it is there fast (like NYS Air/Sea Rescue) is mostly for recovery).

I agree with you, but the should be a on water rescue team. When a vessel on WLIS calls in distress there is time to save them but there is no on to do the job except local pd's then again it might not be directly called to them... If there was an actual team made by sound shore municipalities... Portchester, Rye, Mamaroneck, Larchmont, New ro and pelham can all chip in a small amount each to make a decent team to cover from the ct border down the the bronx line...

i have seen Local private yacht clubs send there own staff out looking for people out there...

I have also seen NYC Helicopters helping in searches (which is great)

Maybe a team can be made and work with the FDNY and other local "on water" rescue and salvage agencies

[fdny41 11]

Great idea engne51 we rely on nyc agencies and private companies to handle the water coverages in the western long island sound .