NYPD ESU Cops Save Family Trapped By Fire

[JJB531 652]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/close_broken_traps_rescues_family_80AKsFrKholGJ2Cy3YvSKN

Based on certain peoples sentiments here, I guess they should have just sat around and waited....

Kudos on a great job well done

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

How dare they? Did anyone check them for "fireproof vests"? Wonder what the NYPD PBA has to say about this? "Who was guarding the hen house while they were playing firemen?"

Sarcasm off! Job well done men.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Bull McCaffrey

[16fire5 693]

10-26

[JJB531 652]

10-26

Wow, surprised it took that long for a member of the fire service to chime in with a comment....

[Fireman488 57]

I have been on both sides of this fence.

Sometimes there's a fine line between helping and being a hinderance.

You really have to know the difference.

Some do and some don't.

[Guest truck12345]

I have seen and read about PD doing rescues that has put themselves and othersin harms way. 2 by NYPD at a high angle rescue from a high rise and a trapped person under a car where it might have coast a person their life.And 1 in upstate where 2 police became trapped in a burning building and had to be taken from a window by a tower ladder.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I have seen and read about PD doing rescues that has put themselves and othersin harms way. 2 by NYPD at a high angle rescue from a high rise and a trapped person under a car where it might have coast a person their life.And 1 in upstate where 2 police became trapped in a burning building and had to be taken from a window by a tower ladder.

That not the entire truth. The NYPD ESU is trained, equipped and capable for preforming a high-angle rescue or vehicle extrication.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

I have seen and read about PD doing rescues that has put themselves and othersin harms way. 2 by NYPD at a high angle rescue from a high rise and a trapped person under a car where it might have coast a person their life.And 1 in upstate where 2 police became trapped in a burning building and had to be taken from a window by a tower ladder.

There is a long history of agency competition. The two incidents you are referring too from NYC, I am familiar with the events, but I don't think anybody ever established if there was even any fault, let alone who it should have been directed against. Inter-agency cooperation should be in the best shape it's ever been, as many issues of cooperation, chain-of-command, common respect, etc have been noted to have been addressed.

It serves no productive purpose to try and elevate the drama or to finger point.

Personally, I think ESU and SOC should probably increase cooperative training initiatives. It couldn't hurt, and there's probably not enough of it.

I hope nobody from PD bites on pettiness.

Regarding the "10-26" comment, to my understanding that means "food on the stove." That's just a fact, not a slight.

ALL of you do a GREAT JOB. God Bless you all.

[JJB531 652]

You have read about these. Were you there or are you just going off what you saw and heard in a Fire magazine or on the internet? I ask the question, were the write ups objective or were they written up by someone with an anti-PD agenda or anti-PD sentiments? Obviously video doesn't lie but even a video may not catch the whole scene and just pieces of it.

I have seen first hand and read the other side of the fence, with FD members doing ridiculous things at rescues to jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others. Difference is PD doesn't run to the media, a Law Enforcement magazine, or EMTBravo to b**** and mock FD about it.

I personally have no problem with Firefighters. They're there to do a job just like everyone else in emergency services. My issue lies with the minority of Firefighters who have the biggest mouths and have nothing better to do but troll the internet and b**** and complain every time they perceive someone else is doing their job. The facts have been exhausted here numerous times, so I'm not going to waste my breath, but many local PD's (including NYC and WCPD) were tasked with performing rescue work long before many FD's. Bitching about PD continuing in the rescue field is like EMS bitching about FD's encroaching on their "turf" when all these FD's want to get into the EMS first response business. Is the arguement valid? As an EMS provider, personally I'd rather not have FD show up on my jobs, but I'm not going to knock them for it because in the end it's what's best for public safety.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

You have read about these. Were you there or are you just going off what you saw and heard in a Fire magazine or on the internet? I ask the question, were the write ups objective or were they written up by someone with an anti-PD agenda or anti-PD sentiments? Obviously video doesn't lie but even a video may not catch the whole scene and just pieces of it.

I have seen first hand and read the other side of the fence, with FD members doing ridiculous things at rescues to jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others. Difference is PD doesn't run to the media, a Law Enforcement magazine, or EMTBravo to b**** and mock FD about it.

I personally have no problem with Firefighters. They're there to do a job just like everyone else is emergency services. My issue lies with the minority of Firefighters who have the biggest mouths and have nothing better to do but troll the internet and b**** and complain every time they perceive someone else is doing their job. The facts have been exhausted here numerous times, so I'm not going to waste my breath, but many local PD's (including NYC and WCPD) were tasked with performing rescue work long before many FD's. Bitching about PD continuing in the rescue field is like EMS bitching about FD's encroaching on their "turf" when all these FD's want to get into the EMS first response business. Is the arguement valid? As an EMS provider, personally I'd rather not have FD show up on my jobs, but I'm not going to knock them for it because in the end it's what's best for public safety.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

I understand what you're saying Joe. We must also acknowledge there are always going to be comments from the general public (and sometimes FD members) because of the responsibility you must carry enforcing the law.

It's not a popular job, because 95% of everyday ordinary Americans go afoul of some kind of law, probably every single day. There is a lot of projected anxiety toward the police. It's easy for someone to point at the cop when he gets a speeding ticket and say "that such-and such." What a common reaction to shirk the responsibility that the driver was doing 76 in a 55, and say it's the cop's fault for writing the ticket! So Grandma Hespess who prides herself on having never broken a law, carelessly speeds down the Sprain Brook Pkwy, doing 70 and talking on the cell phone. That d@#n cop!

I have always admired the fraternity of the police. It is extremely strong. You have to have each others' backs; because sometimes it is you against the world.

At the same time, you're not going to find more people who gather at a website, who have as much respect for their police brothers in blue, as those who gather here. Many, many times, the misdirection of hostility directed at the human being tasked with LE, the guy in the uniform gets the brunt of those dissatisfied with the law itself.

[JJB531 652]

Very well said George. The simple fact is that the Law Enforcement field is one of the most scrutinized, Monday morning quarterbacked professions out there. The media sensationalizes stories involving Law Enforcement to sell papers which turns the general public against us. "Community activists" love to blame the PD for all the issues that support their own personal self-righteous agendas without using their influence in the community to address the real problems that plague low-income neighborhoods. And every Bob, Dick, and Harry who watches some Hollywood cop on the big screen and plays Call of Duty 20 hours a day is all of a sudden an expert marksmen and a tactical genius who can shoot a gun out of the hand from a fleeing felon at 50 yards and then questions why we don't do the same when confronted with a real life deadly force encounter; not some BS video game encounter while sitting around in the living room wearing nothing but a pair of stained tighty whities.

Then I have to come on here and listen to a couple FD guys who always have something to say about LE? It's the hypocrisy that kills me with the whole thing, plus it sounds like a bunch of bratty crybabies alot of times. I'm sorry to say it, but it is what it is. Simple fact is when FD screws up, how often do you see an LEO on here chime in with some stupid comment? So far I've had nothing but good working relationships with FD guys, and I hope to keep it that way. I don't have the time, the patience, or the desire to cry about every little thing. Now I love my job and I take a lot of pride in it; but in the end it's just a job that pays the bills.

[everybodygoes 331]

The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's? You tell me who is better trained at doing it. ESU should stick to what it is good at, saving lives that involve a criminal element. You show up with 2 we show up with 6. Im not saying that anyone who isnt scared should not run in to a building that is on fire to warn occupants. But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt. I remember being told in 2002 to stand guard at a door of a hi rise rescue by a Deputy Chief, why? Cause the apt had 12 guys from the 1st due truck and Rescue already in it, what was PD going to do? Guess what, they went Above us and set something up and almost tangled lines cause they wanted to be the 'it' guys. Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?

[nycmedic 65]

Wah wah wah esu made the grabs and got their picture in the paper instead of us (fdny). I wonder what you would have said if esu stood by and the occupants died.

[JJB531 652]

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.

"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"

In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.

Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.

"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."

I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements. All ESU members are at a minimum EMT's with several Paramedics and one or two Physician Assistants in the ranks. Unless things have changed, all FDNY members are CFR's (with some EMT's/medics thrown in there). Since we are technically better trained emergency medical responders (as in trained to a higher standard), should ESU take over patient care activities when we arrive on scene?

"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"

You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.

As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.

"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."

I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "

Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.

"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"

I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I'll post the video here.

Would you mind posting it. If it is the same one I am thinking of, I have been looking for it for a while and have not been able to find it.

[CBX4627 114]

NYPD ESU Officer Frank LaSala, Truck 1............January 10th, 1987

Don't know who it is, look it up!

And before any of the cops jump on me................I'm former NYPD myself.

Edited May 7, 2012 by CBX4627

[firemoose827 324]

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.

"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"

In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.

Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.

"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."

I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements.

"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"

You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.

As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.

"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."

I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "

Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.

"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"

I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

That was perhaps the most detailed, insightful response to a discussion I have seen on this forum in a long time, and I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot from it. This is why I am a member of these forums, to read excellent content like this. Kudos. (ran out of "likes" for the day otherwise I would have given you one, but will hit you up tomorrow!)

[JJB531 652]

Would you mind posting it. If it is the same one I am thinking of, I have been looking for it for a while and have not been able to find it.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not looking to post it just to stir the pot otherwise I would have put it up here a long time ago. I am not insinuiating that's why you would like me to post it. I am offering it to everybodygoes as factual evidence of my statements about that particular incident. Feel free to PM me in regards to that video.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

That was perhaps the most detailed, insightful response to a discussion I have seen on this forum in a long time, and I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot from it. This is why I am a member of these forums, to read excellent content like this. Kudos. (ran out of "likes" for the day otherwise I would have given you one, but will hit you up tomorrow!)

Agreed. An excellent post, I learned quite a lot there.

[JJB531 652]

Moose - No worries about the "like", it's not about "likes", but I appreciate the kudos. It's about discussing the truth without agendas and biased information being spread on the internet, especially here on EMTBravo, where there is a consistent anti-police, especially anti-ESU atmosphere. Like I said before, I believe that agenda is representative of the minority, but unfortunately sometimes the minority has the biggest mouth. It's not about "well the FD did this, and the FD did that"; it's about realizing that there are flaws and "not-so-sexy" stories on both sides of the fence. To consistently bash a particular agency, while continually ignoring the fact that your agency possesses some level of guilt when it comes to similiar actions, sometimes needs to brought up as a "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones " style message.

[thebreeze 194]

I think most of whats going on here has nothing to do with either agency, frankly I don't care who gets the job done as long as everyone comes out OK. It more has to do with the fact that the media seems to have a bullseye on the FDNY and at the same time is riding on the NYPD's nuts*cks. If the ESU officers involved were able to gain entry and extinguish the fire with no SCBA and no PPE, then this wasn't much of a fire, it was more of a fortuitous situation where the PD happened to come upon a food on the stove with a lock-in. How many times do you see the FD going to a food on the stove where the apartment is banked down to the floor and they have to go in, wake up the residents, take them outside, and put out whatever is burning on the stove. Its common, but you don't see it in the paper, ever. Mostly due to the fact that its not a big deal. The NYPD definitely has a better press desk than the FDNY, hands down. This isn't anyone trying to claim bragging rights, this is one agencies press desk doing a better job selling themselves to the media than the others. Why the media goes along with this is another story.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

What do you think the occupants of that apartment would say if the cops (fully capable and equipped to remove them out of the apartment) just radioed the job in and then stood around for 4 minutes for the engine company to show up? If a simple food on the stove is routine (which it is) why the big uproar over this one? I think I know the answer but I'll let someone else say it.

You never see outside rubbish or simple aideds attacked with some much zeal and ardor as lets say, a scaffold job? Wonder why is that?

Some people need to take a look in the mirror and reevaluate why it is they took this job in the first place.

[16fire5 693]

Difference is PD doesn't run to the media, a Law Enforcement magazine, or EMTBravo to b**** and mock FD about it.

I personally have no problem with Firefighters. They're there to do a job just like everyone else in emergency services. My issue lies with the minority of Firefighters who have the biggest mouths and have nothing better to do but troll the internet and b**** and complain every time they perceive someone else is doing their job.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

I disagree here. There are members of PD that run to the media and to the internet and there is also a group with mouths just as big. To think that there is a difference in the type of people in PD vs. FD is nonsence. We come from the same mold. We have our problem children and you have yours.

My 10-26 comment was a joke if your offended I'm sorry.

I never got to read the other thread but here is what I'll say. Many times you must act based on what you are confronted with and that's what these guys did. Could it have gone wrong for them? You bet but it didn't. I will not falt them for acting. From a training and policy side I don't think it should be encouraged because there is plenty that can go wrong. In Miami Dade County the FD does training for the Police Recruits on this topic and others.

[bad box 371]

You have read about these. Were you there or are you just going off what you saw and heard in a Fire magazine or on the internet? I ask the question, were the write ups objective or were they written up by someone with an anti-PD agenda or anti-PD sentiments? Obviously video doesn't lie but even a video may not catch the whole scene and just pieces of it.

I have seen first hand and read the other side of the fence, with FD members doing ridiculous things at rescues to jeopardize their own safety and the safety of others. Difference is PD doesn't run to the media, a Law Enforcement magazine, or EMTBravo to b**** and mock FD about it.

I personally have no problem with Firefighters. They're there to do a job just like everyone else in emergency services. My issue lies with the minority of Firefighters who have the biggest mouths and have nothing better to do but troll the internet and b**** and complain every time they perceive someone else is doing their job. The facts have been exhausted here numerous times, so I'm not going to waste my breath, but many local PD's (including NYC and WCPD) were tasked with performing rescue work long before many FD's. Bitching about PD continuing in the rescue field is like EMS bitching about FD's encroaching on their "turf" when all these FD's want to get into the EMS first response business. Is the arguement valid? As an EMS provider, personally I'd rather not have FD show up on my jobs, but I'm not going to knock them for it because in the end it's what's best for public safety.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

So JJB, when you post a negative diatribe about members of the F.D. it's fine but when firefighters post facts about incidents that aren't handled correctly they are being "big mouths"? You state, "As an EMS provider, personally I'd rather not have FD show up on my jobs." Thankfully that's not your call to make; the patients who benefit from rapid emergency medical care and rescue services provided by firefighters shouldn't be denied that quick assistance because you have a personal issue with members of the fire service. BTW, the NYPD was not in the rescue business before the FDNY, as a matter of fact the first ESU officers were trained by FDNY's Rescue Co. 1. I'm not a hater of cops or EMS folks, I have some good friends who were police officers several were ESU officers. I'm glad the P.D. happened to be at the scene when the incident occurred and were able to get the door open so the civilians were able to exit. I'm also glad that no folks (civilian or P.D.) were seriously injured. BTW, pot's of water are contraindicated for cooking oil fires ... Stay safe.

[bad box 371]

Everybodygoes, I'm not looking to get into an arguement with you over what in the end is complete nonsense, but I am up for an intelligent rational discussion, so I'll respond to your post.

"The FDNY has been doing rescues since 1865, ESU was started what in the 20's?"

In 1865 the hodge podge of volunteer fire companies were superceded by the Metropolitan Fire Department, which in its beginning roots only covered parts of what is now Manhattan and later on Brooklyn. The FDNY officially became the FDNY in 1870. It wasn't until 1928 that the Bronx was pretty much completely served by the paid Fire Department, followed by Queens in 1929, and Staten Island in 1937. The Fire Departments main function was Fire Suppression. I have tried to research a bit more on the history of the FDNY and their involvement in rescue work, but have come up short in factual verifiable information. If you know where I can locate this, I'd be interested to read it. I know that Rescue 1 was officially formed in 1915, and Rescue 2 was officially formed in 1925. According to the unofficial website for Rescue 1, the formation of the rescue companies was borne out of several fires (Equitable Building, 1912, a Subway Train fire in 1915) wthere firefighters were encountered with difficult forcible entries, and realized the need for a company that carried specialized equipment to operate at these fire scenes. As time went on, Rescue began to get more involved in the Technical Rescue arena, but their original responsibility was to operate at fire scenes, and perform rescues of firefighters and civilians at structural fire scenes (taken from an unofficial Rescue 2 website). This was a time when the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires. Rescue 1 was first equipped with it's first Hurst Tool in 1972. The NYPD was officially formed in 1854 (20 years before the Metropolitan Fire Dept.). ESU was formed in 1925 from a pool of police officers who possessed special skills (electricians, carpenters, riggers, etc.) with the sole purpose of performing rescue assignments. The Unit was also known as the departments Firearms Battalion, and years later the Unit was coined the Mobile Security Unit, where it was tasked with responding to both rescues and tactical situations. Their role as a tactical unit expanded in the 1970's after the Munich Olympics massacre. Not sure when ESU equipped their vehicles with hurst tools. In a book written about the history of FDNY Rescue 1, it was written that members of the NYPD ESU actually helped train the first members of Rescue 1 (I'm not making claims to the accuracy of the material, just relaying what was written. I'll re-post the title of the book when I dig it up). ESU was formed to serve the cop on patrol. At a time when NYC was burning down and the FDNY had their hands full with structural fires, the members of ESU were a resource for the patrol cop to handle these rescue jobs. Before the formation of FDNY Rescue, members of the FDNY performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. Before the formation of NYPD ESU, members of the NYPD performed rescues with the limited equipment and training they had. So to say one was doing it before the other... not sure how much weight that holds.

Westchester County PD has hurst tools before the overwhelming majority of FD's, especially in the northern part of Westchester County, and were the only one's equipped to perform vehicle extrications on certain parts of the County highways for many years.

"You tell me who is better trained at doing it."

I don't know, who is? What discipline are we talking about? ESU members go through a Rope Rescue Technician course provided by a nationally recognized training organization that meets NFPA 1670 and 1006 requirements, and go for continual training multiiple times a year, whether it is self-driven Squad level training, mandated in-house training, or training provided by outside training organizations. ESU members go through an AVET course similar to the Fire Service, and through self-motivation and discipline will often visit local junk yards to train on scrap and derelict vehicles during the course of their normal tour to remain competent on their skills. They go through the EPA Haz Mat Technician course, the FEMA Structural Collapse Technician course, all meet and exceed the NFPA requirements. All ESU members are at a minimum EMT's with several Paramedics and one or two Physician Assistants in the ranks. Unless things have changed, all FDNY members are CFR's (with some EMT's/medics thrown in there). Since we are technically better trained emergency medical responders (as in trained to a higher standard), should ESU take over patient care activities when we arrive on scene?

"You show up with 2 we show up with 6"

You are correct, and sometimes 2 is all you need... more is not always better. I agree that on jobs that are manpower intensive (structural collapses, trench rescues) rolling 6 deep is a huge benefit, and necessary for the operation at hand, and something that ESU really can't compete with. But look at the majority of confirmed pin jobs.. they're simple door jobs that are mitigated in minutes. Quite often I'll see 2 guys working and 4 standing around doing nothing. Even on a simple, minor MVA with injuries on the highway when you have 2 and 2 rolling in with 4 (I think) guys on each piece of apparatus. That's 16 guys either standing around or jockeying for position for one totally stable patient. It's not a knock or a low-blow, it's simple observation. On a more technical or complicated job, we should all be able to work together, and I think the concept of working together is more prevalent in the outer-boroughs. I haven't been around that long, but overall I've had no real major issues when it comes to working together. What it comes down to more often then not is not the patch on the sleeve, but the mentaility of the individual.

As I mentioned before, Westchester County PD handled extrications on the County Highways for many, many years before a lot of the local VFD's had hurst tools, and they got the job done in most instances without 6 people showing up.

"But, don't tell me what happened in Brooklyn was a rare occurence, cause it isnt."

I didn't say it was a rare occurence. What I am saying it's that it's not a one-sided problem. I'm not trying to bash anyone or any agency, but I'll give you 2 examples. Queens, 2 ESU members tethered and outfitted in gumby suits are effecting an ice rescue. After making contact with the victims, members of the FDNY show-up and 5 or 6 run out onto the ice in bunker gear. No tethers, no protective suits, just bunker gear. Can you guess what happens? Ice breaks, and all of them fall through the ice into the freezing cold water and now they all have to be rescued. All of this was caught on video by a news chopper. Don't believe me, I'll post the video here. How is that scenario any different then the one you portrayed about ESU guys trying to be the "it guys", and endangering their own safety and the safety of the other responders who now have to get them out of the water? Or a more recent scenario. Water rescue, male in the water up along the seawall. ESU arrives, one member suits up in a drysuit, and while being tethered, enters the water and grabs the person in the water. While this is going on, FDNY members drop a ladder in the water, and insist on putting one of their own in the water, eventhough the person is "in-custody" for lack of a better term. Now the ESU member has to wait for the FDNY member to descend the ladder so him and the victim can climb the ladder out of the water. The FDNY member entered the water, and came right back up the ladder. What purpose did that serve other then to be the "it guy"? If we want to get technical, according to NYC CIMS, NYPD is the lead agency for all water incidents. What it comes down to is the A-type personality that the majority of us possess and everyone wants to be that "it guy", unfortunately sometimes people's judgements get clouded and irrational decisions are made on both sides, not just one. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

"Guys in Truck 4 are all aces, never had a single problem with them and they work with us well, and of course you cant paint with a broad brush, but it does happen and nothing is done to mediate it. "

Like I said before, I think as you get into the outer-boroughs, there's less drama overall. I don't have an answer as to why nothing is done to mediate it.

"Wonder why it doesnt happen in Yonkers?"

I don't know, maybe someone from Yonkers can chime in. Maybe it's a better working relationship. Maybe Yonkers ESU wants little to do with rescue work. Maybe we just don't hear about the problems. Maybe the current workload leads to few occasions where there's a potential for a problem. I honestly don't know.

Holy cow! This is the most long winded post I've ever seen. BTW, you state that ESU was formed in 1925 and that they trained FDNY's Rescue 1. Rescue 1 was formed in 1915 and did not get trained by some folks who ten years later developed an interest in job done the FDNY's Rescue Co's.

[JJB531 652]

Bad Box,

Long winded? Why, because I took the time to put together a professional, mature post with reasonable information instead of just a few lines of crap without backing up my statements? Were my statements a negative diatribe (as you called it) or facts about things being done wrong (as you put it)? I'll listen to facts all day long. Posting a one-liner (as many here do) that PD should leave rescues to the FD (which is what's often said by many posters) is an opinion, not a fact. And yet when I back up my opinions with a combination of facts, examples, and explanation, all you can comment on is the length of my post? Listen, I'm not looking for a fight, I'm not picking on the FDNY. The difference between me and other members of this board is that I don't post negative diatribes about the FDNY, unlike some of our FDNY counterparts here who jump on ESU every chance they get. My post was not about being negative towards the FDNY, and I think that I CLEARLY stated that, it was instead to show that there's problems on both sides.

In regards to my comment about being an EMS provider and FD first response, you appear to be responding to my statements through pure emotion and not reading what I typed. I CLEARLY stated that although I would rather not have FD on the majority of my jobs, it is what is best for public safety, so I don't really have anything bad to say about it. Don't take it personal, it's just an opinion. It's nothing against FD, it's from an operational standpoint.

Regardless of what you may think, I harbor no personal resentment towards the FDNY. I have several friends who are members of the department, I work well with the members I have encountered, and don't get involved in the political and childish nonsense.

In regards to who trained who; I CLEARLY stated in my post that the information regarding who trained who was offered up by an author who wrote a book on the history of Rescue 1, and that the factual basis of the statement made was questionable, but regardless was still out there. We can go back and forth all day long on who trained who, and who did what first, but I think it's a mute arguement because the factual basis for the claims are unsupported on both sides other then FD saying they were first and PD saying they were first.

[JJB531 652]

16Fire5,

I agree that there are big mouths in any emergency service agency. My comments were more based on my experience here on EMTBravo, since I really don't get involved in any other sites (NYPD Rant, etc.). Here on EMTBravo, there is a more stronger showing of FD then there is PD, and that leads to a general anti-ESU, anti-PD atmosphere. How often do you see PD members here on EMTBravo trashing the FD? Rarely, if ever. How often do we see FD members trashing PD members? On a near weekly basis.

I agree that there are problem children on both sides, and I think I made that pretty clear in my statements in my post, that is is not a one-sided problem.

Out of curiousity, how long is the Miami-Dade program? ESU goes through a week of Basic Firefighting that follows the state curriculum. It's no career academy, but it covers the basics.

[efdcapt115 1,511]

An honest airing of opinions, in a pretty civilized way. It's got to be a healthy thing to air some of the frustrations guys may have been feeling about some of this. Think about if they had regular, informal briefings that would bring ESU and SOC together over coffee one Sunday morning a month or something (check all firearms and haligans at the door please gentlemen).

Then again the point; does having a healthy dose of competition between agencies motivate personnel even further toward excellence in operations? Surely, as long as the operational co-existence does not engender either unsafe ops for victims or emergency personnel.

The unspoken here; how each and every one of these pros from these jobs would DIE for one another. The time for discussion or disagreement would be left for after a cop dragged a fireman to safety, or a fireman dropped the perp the cop was chasing.

What made a lasting impression on me; during Flips of '98 they used to intermingle the FDNY Lts with those of us fortunate to also be attending from our various jobs and promotions. There were 30 guys in my class; 15 FDNY, 15 State. Do you know, every single FDNY Lt in that class was a transferred NYPD Brother?

Think about John and Joe Vigiano when thinking about the Brothers and Sisters of NYC. It really is shared blood.

[INIT915 1,119]

16Fire5,

I agree that there are big mouths in any emergency service agency. My comments were more based on my experience here on EMTBravo, since I really don't get involved in any other sites (NYPD Rant, etc.). Here on EMTBravo, there is a more stronger showing of FD then there is PD, and that leads to a general anti-ESU, anti-PD atmosphere. How often do you see PD members here on EMTBravo trashing the FD? Rarely, if ever. How often do we see FD members trashing PD members? On a near weekly basis.

I agree that there are problem children on both sides, and I think I made that pretty clear in my statements in my post, that is is not a one-sided problem.

Out of curiousity, how long is the Miami-Dade program? ESU goes through a week of Basic Firefighting that follows the state curriculum. It's no career academy, but it covers the basics.

JJB:

I have carefully analyzed all the posts on this thread and the related one and it would now seem to me that ESU's choice is obvious:

1) Take action and get criticized on it on forums such as this one

2) Take no action, (get a picture of the ESU guys standing around in the NY Post), and get criticized in the media and by the public at large

So really, the choice is obvious. Just decide who you want to criticize your actions, and that will help guide you in you decision making matrix.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

JJB:

I have carefully analyzed all the posts on this thread and the related one and it would now seem to me that ESU's choice is obvious:

1) Take action and get criticized on it on forums such as this one

2) Take no action, (get a picture of the ESU guys standing around in the NY Post), and get criticized in the media and by the public at large

So really, the choice is obvious. Just decide who you want to criticize your actions, and that will help guide you in you decision making matrix.

Oh my god, if I wasn't working off an Ancient Roman version of MS word right now I would absolutely turn that into an official flow chart/decision matrix. We could even send some to the NYPD and NYSP to put in their cars! Courtesy of EMTBravo members.

That sir, is arguably one of the best sarcastic answers to a thread I have seen on this website in a LONG time. I'd commend you for it, but the Fire Department has sole responsibility for sarcasm and humor operations on this forum. Stop trying to do our jobs...