Carmel Fatal Fire-How To Prevent Another Tragedy?

[jack10562 414]

I did not want to interrupt the existing Carmel Structure Fire Discussion topic which is becoming more of an online condolence thread, however I'm curious and I understand the incident investigation is ongoing, but were there not any working smoke detectors in this house?

Could this be yet another multi-fatality incident where the loss of life might have been preventable?

[FD828 77]

It was reported that there were hard wired smoke detectors, unknow if they were working at the time of the fire. I am sure that this question will be investigated and answered in due time.

[JM15 386]

The news this evening stated that there up to 8 smoke detectors in the house

[Bnechis 3,961]

New 12 was just reporting that the son woke up to his father yelling the the house was on fire. The son crawled down the stairs, made it into the garage where he pulled a string to open the garage door. Then the father was trying to get everyone else out, they were trapped when the house collapsed. It was previously reported that the collapse occured within 10 minutes of the FD's arrival.

The timeline does not quite make sense...but the investigation may determine that.

My big question is, did the detectors work and why did the family have so little time?

The bigest concern, you can clearly see on news 12 footage the damaged lightweight truss floors. These assemblies fall apart in minutes, everyone in the fire service knows this, but we did not fight hard to stop them and the developpers fought to get them. In codes class we were taught that 90% of them are not installled to code (making it even worst). But the fire service has only pushed to get so signs.

This was a relativly new home (built since the state code was passed in 1984) And the code still does not require home sprinklers. This house would still be standing with them and when they built it, the added cost would have only been a few thousand dollars.

The fire service needs to put its money where its mouth is and fight for sprinklers and against light weight construction.

[firebuff860 54]

Maybe the fire service can honor the memory of Captain Sullivan and his family and use this horrific tragedy as an example of why residential sprinklers are needed. Politicians would be hard pressed to ignore all of the coverage of this fire, as well as the fire in Stamford over Christmas that killed 5. The Sullivan Family residential sprinkler bill.

[Stepjam 118]

A terrible tragedy, what a nightmare for that boy and the rest of his family. My prayers go out to them

According to reports, it looks like the authorities are being cautious and conducting a thorough investigation.

I am having a difficult time understanding how a relatively new house could be consumed so quickly by such a conflagration. In reading some related threads, I am getting the picture that "lightweight construction" may have been a contributing factor. Not being a carpenter, I'm not sure what this type of residential construction entails. My house, a center colonial, is twenty four years old, and I assumed it is of normal frame construction. Now I'm curious. One would hope that there is an inverse relationship between evolving construction techniques, and the resistance to fire spread of the structure that uses those techniques. Has home construction actually taken a backward step where fire safety is concerned?

With regard to sprinklers, this may sound crazy but I wonder if the insurance lobby isn't opposed to them for residential use? An accidental discharge in a home could cause thousands of dollars in damages, especially if it goes unnoticed for hours or even days. Whatever statistical model these companies use might suggest that the potential incident frequency and settlement costs present an undesireable risk for them?

I guess we'll soon find out.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Stepjam

[x635 4,066]

All the building trade lobbying groups and homebuilders have fought against residential home sprinklers, because of the cost which may affect their profit. Insurance companies really don't care. It's easier for them to write something off then to make repairs.

In my subdivision, some of the homebuilders offer a home sprinkler system as part of an upgrade package. With PEX replacing copper, it's easier then ever to install a sprinlkler system and the system pumps and controls have gotten quite advanced and easy to use.. Many city codes are going to be requiring home sprinklers in the coming years. One of the main issues is training plumbers and commercial fire sprinkler installers on how to install residential systems. the other issue is the fact the homeowner needs to maintain the system.

[SSCharged E100 7]

Like said earlier the truss construction, im graduating this month from college with a civil tech engineering degree and all they teach you in classes is oo use trusses fast easy and cheap. I refused to use trusses in any of y projects but its the way engineers and architects are being taught and thats how they are designing structures now. Just another thought

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Has home construction actually taken a backward step where fire safety is concerned?

With regard to sprinklers, this may sound crazy but I wonder if the insurance lobby isn't opposed to them for residential use? An accidental discharge in a home could cause thousands of dollars in damages, especially if it goes unnoticed for hours or even days. Whatever statistical model these companies use might suggest that the potential incident frequency and settlement costs present an undesireable risk for them?

I guess we'll soon find out.

In short, yes to all. I'm also not a carpenter but I'll briefly explain.

Lightweight truss construction in modern houses, while economically efficient and structurally sound under ideal conditions, provides a higher surface area to mass ratio in regards to fire development and spread. In addition, the steel "gusset plates" that affix the different parts of the trusses do are frequently not reinforced with nails. When the metal heats up and expands these plates can pop out, meaning the truss fails. Since trusses are built using triangles its pretty simple to visualize what a triangle looks like when one side falls off.

You're pretty much spot on about the sprinklers. Or at least that's the argument being made.

[ptwatson 82]

Here is an article from 2007 in Firehouse on how light weigh truss are built.....

http://www.firehouse.com/article/10499153/how-the-lightweight-truss-is-built

As we know they are quite dangerous!

[FF1 172]

I can understand all of the thoughts on how to prevent another tragedy like this from happening, but the fact of the matter is, a great man is no longer with us, along with his wife and two teenage girls who barely began thier adult lives. Not to mention his son who survived the fire, but will have to live with out his home and more importantly his family. Pray for the Sullivan family and end the discussion. This happened one day ago!! Discussing the details and giving suggestions and ideas so soon is very disrespectful to the Sullivan family.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Many city codes are going to be requiring home sprinklers in the coming years. One of the main issues is training plumbers and commercial fire sprinkler installers on how to install residential systems. the other issue is the fact the homeowner needs to maintain the system.

We started requiring sprinklers in one and two family dwellings using the Life Safety Code as the "driver". The training issue is nearly non-existent in my area. In the last 4 months I've gone to a local plumbing supply house where they've hosted two different system designers certification programs, in both cases the class was less than 4 hours and myself, our COD, the local Code Officer and his assistant have all become certified installers, along with a room full of plumbers. Both classes were free and gives the installer access to certified designers who get the home plans and design the system and give the installer a sprinkler plan, then make a single site visit to ensure you competed the work as they designed and the system is certified.

As for homeowner maintenance, it's very limited. If you're on city water it's really maintenance free, unlike commericial systems with quarterly and annual inspections, testing etc. On a well/tank system you might need to verify your pump is working but that's about it. The new CPVC and PEX systems are far easier and quicker to install and the design is such to make them more attractive rather than onerous systems the homeowner need worry about.

The two main impediments are misinformation on the part of the home builders/real estate brokers part and the fire service for not being educated enough ourselves to convince our own and the public that this is the best way to minimize injuries and deaths for everyone involved.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I am having a difficult time understanding how a relatively new house could be consumed so quickly by such a conflagration. In reading some related threads, I am getting the picture that "lightweight construction" may have been a contributing factor. Not being a carpenter, I'm not sure what this type of residential construction entails. My house, a center colonial, is twenty four years old, and I assumed it is of normal frame construction. Now I'm curious. One would hope that there is an inverse relationship between evolving construction techniques, and the resistance to fire spread of the structure that uses those techniques. Has home construction actually taken a backward step where fire safety is concerned?

There are many ways that lightweight construction endangers human lives as opposed to "legacy" construction.

• Trusses: by now we should all be very familiar with the dangers of lightweight wood trusses. These along with sheathing act as a system to form roofs and/or floors. The trusses themselves by nature allow for fire travel and spread, are thinner and smaller dimensionally thus allowing for faster burn through/failure, and generally fail as a system. The truss holds up the sheathing, the sheathing holds the trusses together and in place, it's like a house of cards.
  
• 
  
• Light weight carrying timbers: large dimensional wood is expensive, so we have engineer lumber using small chips and particles pressed and glued together to make large carrying timbers. Under normal loading conditions these allow for greater spans between walls and hold up very well. Under fire conditions their surface to mass ratio along with the glue allows them to fall apart and burn far more rapidly than dimensional lumber. Also since they can allow for larger spans, we're seeing larger rooms and less compartmentalization in far greater numbers, as what was once a sign of the rich is now affordable to far more homeowners.
  
• Cheap sheathing: OSB, chip board, particle board, you name it, it's cheaper to stick little pieces together with glue than use true boarding boards or even plywood. Money saved on sheathing which the homeowner never sees can be used to reduce costs or allow for upgrades. This stuff fails under heat faster than legacy materials again due to surface to mass and glue failure.
  
• Vinyl siding and worse yet, soffits. A very quick way for fire to get from floor to attic today is vinyl soffit covering. With modern construction knowledge demanding ventilation from soffit to ridge, the open air space in the soffit used to be plywood or boards with screening between to allow air travel, Now, to make that worse, we use vinyl covering as it's preformed, fast, doesn't need to be painted and cheap. This allows fire from failed windows or outside fire to rapidly extend into the attic space with some fuel at the entry point to speed the process!
  
• Energy efficiency. Tighter houses heat cheaper, which also means they heat faster and hold heat better leading to faster flashover if there's enough air to support the combustion, if not, it can lead to greater backdraft potential.
  
• And of course, while not part of the construction specifically, the fuel load of today is far more than ever before. Nearly everything we buy today is made of petroleum based plastics and far less natural materials, allow for far faster heat release rates and greater BTU's per pound.
  

In all our stuff burns much hotter, much faster and in far less safe homes, than ever before. The only viable answer in sprinklers.

With regard to sprinklers, this may sound crazy but I wonder if the insurance lobby isn't opposed to them for residential use? An accidental discharge in a home could cause thousands of dollars in damages, especially if it goes unnoticed for hours or even days. Whatever statistical model these companies use might suggest that the potential incident frequency and settlement costs present an undesireable risk for them?

I don't beleive the insurance lobby is against sprinklers, they protect them from much greater payouts and in our state they've found that 99% offer a reduction in fire insurance premiums(5-15%), though in the grand scheme it's not enough to be a selling point. The fact is, and I'm sure BNECHIS can speak far more eloquently on the subject, that insurance companies, crazy as it sounds are heavily regulated. That is to say they can't just start charging everyone more for not having sprinklers, they can offer reductions in cost, but that's taking money away from them. If they could charge more for those failing to build new with sprinklers, that'd be huge.

[lad12derff 283]

Did anybody ever consider the fire started above the bedrooms in the attic? It could burn up there undetected for quite some time before a failure of the trusses brought a collapse into the living area of the home. How many of you have smoke detectors in your attic? The term fully involved is used quite a bit and misused a lot more. If fire was showing from only upper windows and the roof was burned through you make your own conclussion. I was not there and I will thank God for that. My thoughts to Capt Sullivan and his family and the entire Carmel community.

[JetPhoto 626]

Sad, very Sad - Another way smoking kills

Carmel fire: Thomas Sullivan Jr.'s discarded cigarette ash sparked blaze that killed family; no charges filed

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120607/NEWS/306070111/Carmel-fire-Thomas-Sullivan-Jr-s-discarded-cigarette-ash-sparked-blaze-killed-family-no-charges-filed?odyssey=mod|defcon|text|Frontpage

A cigarette ash that smoldered in the mulch at the foot of the front porch adjacent to steps was the cause of the fire that claimed four members of the Sullivan family, police said today.

That ash came from a cigarette smoked by Thomas Sullivan Jr., the sole survivor of the May 1 fire, Carmel Police Lt. Brian Karst said.

[Stepjam 118]

Oh my God.

I will be praying for that boy.

[smwells 7]

I am sure Thomas Jr was already having a tough time dealing with the loss of his whole family so suddenly, and now to find out his actions contributed to it.

He is going to need a lot more support from those around him.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Sad, very Sad - Another way smoking kills

Carmel fire: Thomas Sullivan Jr.'s discarded cigarette ash sparked blaze that killed family; no charges filed

http://www.lohud.com...|text|Frontpage

Very sad. This is becoming a far more common way for outside fire to rapidly extend into newer structures. Given the prevalence of vinyl siding and vinyl soffits and outside fire has the ability to rapidly extend into the attic/truss space and burn as Lad12derff had considered. This may have been the one type of scenario that a residential sprinkler system could not have prevented as unoccupied spaces aren't sprinklered and the fire gets way ahead of the system before it's ever activated.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I recently had a pipe spring a leak. It lead to the shower head in my bathroom upstairs. I had to break open the wall behind the shower to fix it. It was then that I noticed the hole cut in the floor to accommodate the tub drain piping. I also noticed that in this area at least three bays and the side area of the fiberglass tub/shower are wide open. It went up about 8 feet, before I saw any fire stops (2x 4). Today I had to replace the sheetrock in the dining room ceiling directly below the shower, which has access thru a cut out in the wall to the kitchen. Here is a photo from below. My townhouse was built in 1998. In theory, if a fire started in the kitchen, and the are any flaws or openings in the sheet rock, a fire would have access to the second floor, and roof within a short amount of time.

[wraftery 1,275]

SPRINKLERS

[firemoose827 324]

Did anybody ever consider the fire started above the bedrooms in the attic? It could burn up there undetected for quite some time before a failure of the trusses brought a collapse into the living area of the home. How many of you have smoke detectors in your attic? The term fully involved is used quite a bit and misused a lot more. If fire was showing from only upper windows and the roof was burned through you make your own conclussion. I was not there and I will thank God for that. My thoughts to Capt Sullivan and his family and the entire Carmel community.

Sad, very Sad - Another way smoking kills Carmel fire: Thomas Sullivan Jr.'s discarded cigarette ash sparked blaze that killed family; no charges filed http://www.lohud.com...|text|Frontpage

Where I work, there was a house fire that killed 4 people in a Developmental Disability home, and the fire was caused by a cigarette put out in the mulch bed alongside the house, and it spread into the house up the siding and into the soffit just like this fire. It ran the whole attic before finally being noticed but by the time the staff could do anything the ceiling collapsed on some people. Today, we are pushing for heat detectors to be installed in all attic spaces and the installation of NFPA 13 "R" style residential sprinkler systems. We are also pushing for all fire alarm systems to be addressable to a central station monitoring agency. We use the Life Safety Code often as well.

I hope that eventually contractors will see the light and think more about safety, and homeowners as well, the costs of installing a sprinkler system is nothing compared to saving the life of a family member and saving your home as well...

Edited June 8, 2012 by firemoose827

[LFD34 12]

The idea of using this tragedy to help push tighter regulation is a great idea. Many municipalities have tried to push through sprinkler laws only to have the state overturn them. (In fact Larchmont had a sprinkler that was overturned) In addition I believe it is time to amend building codes forcing both trusses and laminate beams to have fireproofing applied so that a fire can't ruin the structural integrity as quickly.