False alarms douse firefighter morale; Nyack says nearly half of calls are not real

[peterose313 345]

The Fire Department, which responds to 500 calls a year, wants Nyack lawmakers to get tough on repeat offenders. Under the existing rule, a home or business owner receives two warnings before they are issued a summons and taken to court. Fire officials want to give them only one warning before they’re hit with fines, which start at $250 and max out at $1,000. Trustees are considering the idea.

“We have to make it stricter so people know that we’re not fooling around,” Taylor said.

http://www.lohud.com/article/20120427/NEWS03/304270023/False-alarms-douse-firefighter-morale-Nyack-says-nearly-half-calls-aren-t-real?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

[lad12derff 283]

Try doing almost 9000 and see how morale is

[sfrd18 360]

What about when FDNY 82/31 kept going to the most infamous Alarm Box for false alarms on Charlotte St. in the South Bronx back during the War Years.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Umm, why is this news?

Maybe i am wrong, but arent we hear to respond to alarms? Yes, a high percentage of alarms are false, so what? Smells and bells and in many places EMS runs, make up a large percentage of responses. But again, this is why we are here, no?

There is a reason the alarm went off, this is why we need to respond and investigate. If we find it was "food on the stove" or dust or what have you, so be it.

What is the alternative? Send a PD unit or just a Chief to "check and advise?" Like the boy who cried wolf, there will be the 1 time its an active fire and you'll be caught with your pants down.

Im sorry if you get annoyed at false alarms, but its part of the "job." You dont like it, go join a slower department i guess.

Personally, i dont see how false alarms really can bring down morale. Maybe guys are getting burned out on these runs and if so, suck it up!

I look at it this way; every and any alarm that i respond to is a learning experience. Its a chance to gear-up and get out there and practice all the basics.

So what if only 1 in a 1,000 alarms are the "real thing." It will be that 1 time that counts.

Just my worthless 2 cents.

Edited April 27, 2012 by BFD1054

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I think the point of the article is the repeat offenders and what can be done to them. The ones you go to a few times a month. The ones you warn and tell them what they shouldnt be doing or how to solve the problem and they just ignore you or the advice. Thats the BS ones. It always seems to be commercial establishments that are the worst at this. The only way they get "motivated" to act is when you can slap them with a fine.

[truthabout WP 3]

STOP BITCHING....ITS YOUR JOB. IF ITS NOT THEN QUIT

[TimesUp 148]

In this economy where most families and businesses are just getting by how could anyone want to add a fine that starts at 200.00 and goes up to 1000.00 for false alarms. They already pay for fire protection in their taxes. If you find that going on false alarms ruins your morale then find something else to do. Or stay in bed and if it turns out to be a fire then go, I'm sure the homeowner won't mind you waited for the "check and advise" while their house was burning down.

[nycemt728 49]

Wow, never heard such a uproar about a somewhat posititive article. I agree, the main point of the article was not to higlight the "whining firefighters" but to propose a solution to solve the problem. I don't care who you are, there's nothing good about false alarms. From the responses, it woud appear that no one here is thinking big picture and that folks just want to knee jerk and call names. Try thinking about big the big picture. Responding is dangerous, no one wants to get hurt only to find out the call was bogus and from a place you keep going back to. It takes resources to respond, whether no matter what type of dept....people mentioned tough times, guess what that includes municipal services. No one is saying don't respond but an unecessary response can be avoided, everyone wins. As for the manpower issue, perhaps morale is a bad word to use, but the issue is real. How many false calls can someone go on before they really upset their boss? How many times can the same address pop up before anyone gets burned out? I don't think the article mentioned punishing those have a false alarm, but those who are continually having false alarm and have been educated on how to alleviate the problem. If the fines allow the staff to continue doing what they do and help their community, why is that bad thing? The decision is about protecting and helping those who serve the community so they can continue to do so.

Edited April 27, 2012 by nycemt728

[spin_the_wheel 460]

STOP BITCHING....ITS YOUR JOB. IF ITS NOT THEN QUIT

So your fine with your dept going to the same restaurant for the 4th time in the month and the rig "maybe" getting into an accident and "maybe" a civillian or MOS getting injured or worse as a result? Your fine with a store owner who has been told over and over to have his alarm company send someone out so they can move the smoke head away from the new oven they just put in that keeps setting the alarm off? We are talking about cronic probelms from the same location due to the same problems over and over.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

In this economy where most families and businesses are just getting by how could anyone want to add a fine that starts at 200.00 and goes up to 1000.00 for false alarms. They already pay for fire protection in their taxes. If you find that going on false alarms ruins your morale then find something else to do. Or stay in bed and if it turns out to be a fire then go, I'm sure the homeowner won't mind you waited for the "check and advise" while their house was burning down.

I see nothing wrong with a fine after say the third time when conditions warrant under set guidelines as to what is a cronic system error on the owners part as opposed to an honest mistake...steam from shower because the bathroom door was left open, food on the stove, when you've never been to that address before, 17 year old daughter setting off alarm when coming home from school because she does not know how to cancel or forgot the "passcode". These are honest false alarms, that for the most part are always corrected. But when there is a short in the system or construction work has altered something, hi-lows that always hit low hanging smoke heads that should be moved or managers dont give a crap when an employee keeps smoking in the bathroom when they should not and the owners disregard whats going on, time after time, then give them a fine. bet it will be fixed. When are people going to have some accountability for there actions?

Edited April 27, 2012 by spin_the_wheel

[res6cue 67]

I really love some of the negative replies to this topic directed at the FD. It really makes me wonder if any of you guys telling the brothers in Nyack to "man up and shut up" even read the article in its entirety, or processed what the point of it actually was.

Yet, the first time someone gets in a wreck with a POV or apparatus going to a totally preventable false alarm at the same location for the 5th time that week, it'll be the same guys pointing the finger blaming the "yahoos", right?

There is a huge difference between responding to an alarm system properly doing its job, regardless of the outcome, and responding to the same location over and over again because there is a default with the system or a situation that can be corrected to prevent outright false alarms. The former is not what they are complaining about, it's the latter.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe i am wrong, but arent we hear to respond to alarms? Yes, a high percentage of alarms are false, so what? Smells and bells and in many places EMS runs, make up a large percentage of responses. But again, this is why we are here, no?

No we are here to respond to emergencies, the majority of these are not emergencies and therefore it takes us away from other emergencies.

There is a reason the alarm went off, this is why we need to respond and investigate. If we find it was "food on the stove" or dust or what have you, so be it. Send a PD unit or just a Chief to "check and advise?" Like the boy who cried wolf, there will be the 1 time its an active fire and you'll be caught with your pants down.

If we find the alarm went off for a "real" reason, like smoke from cooking. No problem. (unless we have been there 3,4, 5 times) then maybe the head needs to be moved. A little fine (that escilates) will convince them its cheaper to move it. If its dust from contractors, maybe the contractor will learn to work properly if the property owner hits him with the fine, otherwise we get to follow this contractor all over town.

No. We do not send PD or THe chief. But we need to correct the problem so its not a repeat. When you go to the same location over and over for a problem system, then the property is crying wolf. They will not get the same response from many depts. (as stated in the article).

Im sorry if you get annoyed at false alarms, but its part of the "job." You dont like it, go join a slower department i guess. Personally, i dont see how false alarms really can bring down morale. Maybe guys are getting burned out on these runs and if so, suck it up!

We do over 1,000 of these every year, we are not going away, but after a while it does hurt moral.

I look at it this way; every and any alarm that i respond to is a learning experience. Its a chance to gear-up and get out there and practice all the basics.

Fair enough, but in busy depts, this is not as critical.

So what if only 1 in a 1,000 alarms are the "real thing." It will be that 1 time that counts.

Our stats show its less than 0.1% turn out to be the "real thing". Thats about a dozen fires in 25,000 responses. We actually found the chance of find a fire was greater when we just drove down the road and spoted one. We also had far more fires that were phoned in for another location while we were out of position at automatic alarms.

Also remember, Alarm companies sell this service and promise property owners that they will keep them safe. Then they send us. Maybe they should have to give us a cut of the profits.

[BFD1054 1,552]

No we are here to respond to emergencies, the majority of these are not emergencies and therefore it takes us away from other emergencies.

If we find the alarm went off for a "real" reason, like smoke from cooking. No problem. (unless we have been there 3,4, 5 times) then maybe the head needs to be moved. A little fine (that escilates) will convince them its cheaper to move it. If its dust from contractors, maybe the contractor will learn to work properly if the property owner hits him with the fine, otherwise we get to follow this contractor all over town.

No. We do not send PD or THe chief. But we need to correct the problem so its not a repeat. When you go to the same location over and over for a problem system, then the property is crying wolf. They will not get the same response from many depts. (as stated in the article).

We do over 1,000 of these every year, we are not going away, but after a while it does hurt moral.

Fair enough, but in busy depts, this is not as critical.

Our stats show its less than 0.1% turn out to be the "real thing". Thats about a dozen fires in 25,000 responses. We actually found the chance of find a fire was greater when we just drove down the road and spoted one. We also had far more fires that were phoned in for another location while we were out of position at automatic alarms.

Also remember, Alarm companies sell this service and promise property owners that they will keep them safe. Then they send us. Maybe they should have to give us a cut of the profits.

Barry, once again you pick apart one of my posts, thats fine. Im not going to go back-and-forth with you.

What is NRFD's response to an automatic alarm?

I do see both sides of the article. I understand the drain on the FD, the manpower, the rigs, etc. I understand that many, many, many times it is BS. I also agree that "repeat offenders" should be fined for many reasons.

I also know that in N.R. where youre running thousands of calls a year, its not as critical to get out and gear up for the BS runs. However, this article was based on a Vol FD, no?

I see it both ways, but this article could have been a little clearer.

I in no, way, shape or form bashed or knocked Nyack FD or its members. I made my comments as general statements.

[Dinosaur 844]

There are a couple of different issues here. One is the issue of repeated false alarms. Besides Nyack Hospital, the article doesn't really say how many repeat offenders there are so the problem may or may not be solved by fines or penalties. If there are 100 different places having one false alarm a month, there's no fix.

The other issue is that of morale. I have to agree with some of the other commments. It's the job. Sure we don't like it but we don't get to pick and choose what we get. We take the good the bad and the ugly. There are lots of ways to avoid this. Designated rostered crews is one way to limit how many people have to get up and respond to an alarm call. The article doesn't say how many of the alarms are received in the middle of the night. My guess is that it is a fairly low number since people don't routinely shower, create dust doing home improvements, or pop popcorn at 3 AM (yah, I know, there's plenty of drunks popping popcorn at 3AM but I still bet its not that many).

To all those saying what about the seemingly inevitable apparatus or POV accident responding to a false alarm. There's no greater risk responding to a false alarm than there is responding to a real working fire. The issue with driving is whether or not you do so properly and professionally. If you drive like an a** to a false alarm you probably drive like a bigger a** when you know there's a "job" so it all goes out the window.

There was an interesting thread one here a while back about making false alarms training opportunities. There were some good ideas about spending 20-30 minutes to do some training while on even a false alarm call. If 4 out of 10 of your calls are false, you probably have the time to do something valuable. It's all in the initiative of the chief or training officer.

bnechis, just curious about how many fires occurred while apparatus was out on another non-fire call?

[Dinosaur 844]

Barry, once again you pick apart one of my posts, thats fine. Im not going to go back-and-forth with you.

What is NRFD's response to an automatic alarm?

I do see both sides of the article. I understand the drain on the FD, the manpower, the rigs, etc. I understand that many, many, many times it is BS. I also agree that "repeat offenders" should be fined for many reasons.

I also know that in N.R. where youre running thousands of calls a year, its not as critical to get out and gear up for the BS runs. However, this article was based on a Vol FD, no?

I see it both ways, but this article could have been a little clearer.

I in no, way, shape or form bashed or knocked Nyack FD or its members. I made my comments as general statements.

I didn't take your post as bashing Nyack or anybody else. The article could definitely have been a little clearer and the first thing the guy suggested could have been something firematic instead of throwing a party with the penalty money. Geez, talk about a stupid thing to say in this economy. We're going to fine you for having two false alarms and throw a party with the money. Duh, that's no good for public relations either.

If Nyack is doing 1000 runs a year and 40% are false alarms that's only a little more than one per day. How does that really impact vehicle wear and tear and fuel in a small district like the Nyacks?

My old job sent either 2 and 1 or 1 and 1 plus the duty chief to an alarm. Not really that big a deal.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

If you joined the FD looking to run nothing but working jobs, you've been duped.

I agree with the previous post that Dinosaur referenced. False alarms are a great opportunity to learn your district and the nuances of difference occupancies. If you keep responding to the same place, you can drill into everyone's head where to place apparatus, where the fire alarm control center is located, where your primary and secondary water supply is, etc.

I do agree with the idea of charging for excessive false alarms within a certain time frame, but not because it "damages morale." How about because it wastes fuel and other department resources. What if the cops said "we think going on false burglary alarms damages morale so we don't want to do them anymore." We'd all say how selfish and unprofessional it was.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Our stats show its less than 0.1% turn out to be the "real thing". Thats about a dozen fires in 25,000 responses. We actually found the chance of find a fire was greater when we just drove down the road and spoted one. We also had far more fires that were phoned in for another location while we were out of position at automatic alarms.

Can you differentiate those that were properly functioning alarms as opposed to actual system malfunctions? I understand your point, but on the surface it looks like we're doing ourselves more harm by requiring and supporting fire alarm systems in commercial occupancies. In our case, while the AFA's most turn out to be fires, the systems are most often doing their job, detecting smoke, such as burnt popcorn or water flow from a water system pressure event.

It definitively behooves a FD to involve their code officials if they do not have direct violation writing capability. Those cases where the alarms are too frequent often are due to the alarm system not being properly serviced or maintained. We've required companies re-certify alarms to the code when time after time we respond for false alarms and find zones in "trouble" or worse, taken offline.

Also remember, Alarm companies sell this service and promise property owners that they will keep them safe. Then they send us. Maybe they should have to give us a cut of the profits.

Certainly with a little friendly explanation most building owners should not blame the FD for the fine, but go back to the alarm company and hold them accountable for the service they pay for.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Hey I can't edit my previous post?

Anyway the line "In our case, while the AFA's most turn out to be fires, the systems are most often doing their job, detecting smoke, such as burnt popcorn or water flow from a water system pressure event."

Should read: "In our case, while most AFA's do not turn out to be fires, the systems are most often doing their job, detecting smoke, such as burnt popcorn or water flow from a water system pressure event."

[IzzyEng4 427]

Police departments have been fining for false alarms with central station monitoring services now for years. It's about time the FDs started doing this as well. The problem isn't the the alarm companies is the owners of the building who do not follow up with having their systems checked out when there are problems.

(*)

[rayrider 94]

With the police alarms, its usually a home owner forgetting to type in the alarm code in the time alloted or forgetting their alarm is even activated therefore setting it off. Much different than faulty equipment or burnt popcorn.

[EMT-7035 4]

I do agree with the idea of charging for excessive false alarms within a certain time frame, but not because it "damages morale." How about because it wastes fuel and other department resources. What if the cops said "we think going on false burglary alarms damages morale so we don't want to do them anymore." We'd all say how selfish and unprofessional it was.

When I was working at a school district a few summers back, we accidentally set off the security alarm and they charged us ~$500 just to send a cruiser over and make sure everything was okay. Their (reasonable) justification was that we wasted resources and took a car off the road and it wasn't the first time it had happened.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Can you differentiate those that were properly functioning alarms as opposed to actual system malfunctions? I understand your point, but on the surface it looks like we're doing ourselves more harm by requiring and supporting fire alarm systems in commercial occupancies. In our case, while the AFA's most turn out to be fires, the systems are most often doing their job, detecting smoke, such as burnt popcorn or water flow from a water system pressure event.

Yes, we can. But when we were looking at the issue of AFA's. we thought that this was most interesting. Now even "properly functioning alarms" such as burn popcorn or steam from the shower may indicate the head is the wrong type or is too close to a common source. We have a $10 smoke detector in the kitchen and the central station head a full room away. If the smoke detector goes off (from the burnt pop corn, there is still enough warning to save it and turn on the fan to prevent the central station from sending the FD. So even when we consider the "properly functioning" detectors, if we keep getting calls to the same location, there is an issue.

We do bill repeat offenders (for malfunctions), but we generally do not consider the burnt food to be a malfunction, until it becomes a routine call.

Certainly with a little friendly explanation most building owners should not blame the FD for the fine, but go back to the alarm company and hold them accountable for the service they pay for.

Well put.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When I was working at a school district a few summers back, we accidentally set off the security alarm and they charged us ~$500 just to send a cruiser over and make sure everything was okay. Their (reasonable) justification was that we wasted resources and took a car off the road and it wasn't the first time it had happened.

Years back we had a problem in a number of the elementary schools (and Middle & High schools) and would get called there multiple times every night. THey would not let us have keys or install knox boxes. They would pay the custodian double time to come in. It always took 1-2 hours to get them there (the all lived in town). Over the course of 1-2 years they ran up a fine of over $60,000. We finally got fed up and told them: no key.... get there in 15 minutes or we will use Chief Haligans Key. That solved the response time, but not the alarms or the bill. Till the School system sent us a bill of $40,000 for opening the high school to hold FD Civil service testing. We sent their bill back with an adjusted bill stating they now only owed us $20,000.

Since that time the problem appears to be greatly reduced.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Yes, we can. But when we were looking at the issue of AFA's. we thought that this was most interesting. Now even "properly functioning alarms" such as burn popcorn or steam from the shower may indicate the head is the wrong type or is too close to a common source. We have a $10 smoke detector in the kitchen and the central station head a full room away. If the smoke detector goes off (from the burnt pop corn, there is still enough warning to save it and turn on the fan to prevent the central station from sending the FD. So even when we consider the "properly functioning" detectors, if we keep getting calls to the same location, there is an issue.

Agreed, the issue is more often a poor installation with regard to type and location of the device. I must wonder how many company officers in many FD's know enough code and fire alarm information to properly educate the building owners and RP's when these alarms happen?

In our case, the State followed MA's lead by enacting a law requiring photo-electric type sensors within 20 ft of any kitchen or bathroom. This technology greatly reduces false activations from cooking smoke and steam. In the past few years we've been able to educate many building owners to install the photo-electrics even if not required as while they cost more up front, far few are torn down and destroyed by tenants when they repeatedly arm for steam or cooking. One management company that owns the greatest number of units in the city changed all their detectors in one year and the results are evident by the decline in our responses to those properties.

Unlike some places that have made headlines in recent years, we should be looking to make the building owners and fire alarm companies improve their systems rather than reduce our response in apparatus or personnel. A correctly functioning system is far safer for all involved, reduces owner liability and risk, and will reduce complacency on the part of occupants and firefighters.

[x635 4,066]

What do people pay taxes for?

This would only discourage people from using fire alarms, and that would cost lives.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What do people pay taxes for?

This would only discourage people from using fire alarms, and that would cost lives.

I pay taxes to make sure I get service (well trained, properly staffed & equipped) in a timely manor. But a substantial amount of the time those resources are covering false alarms at IONA, CNR, the Hospital and the highrises, all of which do not pay taxes.

If they are malfunctining (crying wolf) they will not save lives when the time comes, because they will be ignored.

[mfc442 3]

The idea of fining them because of false alarms is "great" in theory but where does the money go? I know that in some fire districts if the property or business owner gets a fine, the fire department does not see the money, the town does. That fine does not go to cover the costs of maintenance to the vehicles, fuel, etc. rather it goes into the towns pocket. As per the article responding to the false alarms "...wastes diesel fuel and increases wear and tear on the department’s equipment." Is the department going to receive the moneys from the fine to aid in covering those expenses and reduce the tax burden on the rest of the community?

The biggest question that I have is what are they considering a false alarm? Like many others have already said on her, burnt popcorn is not a false alarm.

What do you do when you have a person who has Alzheimer’s and is living at home with their spouse who is capable of taking care of their needs and said person puts a slipper in the toaster and turns the toaster on? This is not a false alarm. Do you start to fine them as well because you go there every few weeks for similar such thing? The end result of that would be, in my opinion, that they would pull out the central station system. While that would eliminate some calls for us, aren’t we endangering the life for the 2 people living in that house as well as putting ourselves into a position that we are going to be responding to a structure fire, putting ourselves into a more dangerous position, instead of a simple slipper in the toaster that can be taken care of with a water can or dry chem?

[streetdoc 14]

but its part of the "job." ???? really

Edited April 30, 2012 by streetdoc

[streetdoc 14]

BFD1054

Umm, why is this news?

Maybe i am wrong, but arent we hear to respond to alarms? Yes, a high percentage of alarms are false, so what? Smells and bells and in many places EMS runs, make up a large percentage of responses. But again, this is why we are here, no?

There is a reason the alarm went off, this is why we need to respond and investigate. If we find it was "food on the stove" or dust or what have you, so be it.

What is the alternative? Send a PD unit or just a Chief to "check and advise?" Like the boy who cried wolf, there will be the 1 time its an active fire and you'll be caught with your pants down.

Im sorry if you get annoyed at false alarms, but its part of the "job."

What "Job" are you on ?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

BFD1054

Umm, why is this news?

Maybe i am wrong, but arent we hear to respond to alarms? Yes, a high percentage of alarms are false, so what? Smells and bells and in many places EMS runs, make up a large percentage of responses. But again, this is why we are here, no?

There is a reason the alarm went off, this is why we need to respond and investigate. If we find it was "food on the stove" or dust or what have you, so be it.

What is the alternative? Send a PD unit or just a Chief to "check and advise?" Like the boy who cried wolf, there will be the 1 time its an active fire and you'll be caught with your pants down.

Im sorry if you get annoyed at false alarms, but its part of the "job."

What "Job" are you on ?

After looking at this again IM not sure who posted what, if its a few multi quotes in one but IM responding to the post starting with "maybe Im wrong....

Now here is something thats not been pointed out before, if your Department, Company whatever only goes to 25 calls a month and 20 are automatic alarms, including 6 to the same place every month...well maybe everyone wants to keep running back and forth, otherwise the said Department would be only doing 10 calls a month. But if your doing 100 calls a month and 60 are automatic alarms with 20 to the same place for BS reasons that CAN BE FIXED that is a problem.

As others have stated, so whos getting their moneys worth in taxes the owner who keeps the Dept. coming to their location disregarding fire officials explaining to them how to correct the problem OR the person with the real emergency, but gets a delayed response because we are accross town at the cronic alarm we have been to 7 times this month.

I guess in the long run we will agree to disagree. Be safe.

Edited April 30, 2012 by spin_the_wheel