U.S. Justice Dept. sues Jacksonville Fla. over firefighter exams

[efdcapt115 1,511]

The lawsuit followed a more than two-year investigation examining Jacksonville's record of promoting African-Americans for the ranks of lieutenant, captain, district chief and engineer dating back to 2004.

http://www.reuters.c...E83M1KQ20120423

[M' Ave 1,466]

www.meritmattersusa.blogspot.com

This viscious justice department is showing amazing signs of racial preference. Go ahead, vote for Obama again....

....and this is coming from a guy who hasn't voted republican too often. Ah how things change....

[Pagers 197]

Interesting...

[mvfire8989 22]

This is really a terrible policy on behalf of the Justice department and the court system for establishing disparate impact as a standard for proving discrimination. Just because there is a statistical chance that minorities may score more poorly should not and in my opinion does not prove discrimination. If anything it is indicative of a failure of the education system to prepare those from less well off areas adequately. It is a shame that they were possibly not afforded an equal chance to succeed as a child, however, it is not the responsibility of civil service tests to accommodate those who the system has failed in the past. The tests should be hard, because we should strive to challenge the applicants, especially for the promotional exams. I would argue that even tests that don't have "job related" questions, can be of value. If everyone is aware of the content of the exam and provided study materials, those who preform the best have shown the drive and determination that is necessary to succeed in any position.

It makes me ashamed to be "represented" by those who have such an obvious agenda. I have yet to see how a written test can be racially biased, since I am reasonably certain a test cannot see the color of the person taking it.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I would love to see what system the Justice Department comes up with to determine promotions.

[ny10570 745]

Any test with a disparity in the racial make up of the passing applicants must be proven to be applicable to the job for which they are testing.

People frequently reference job testing in skilled labor fields. Unless you can prove essay writing competency is an accurate predictor of talented welders you cannot include an essay writing section on the test. You can however test their ability as a welder. Firefighting is trickier/ Depts must prove their tests are accurate predictors of future success in that position since they are testing skills related to, but not directly applicable to firefighting.

Edited April 25, 2012 by ny10570

[fireboyny 61]

I'd be more than happy to express my views, but I'm sure that would get my account on EMT bravo removed, so i'll leave it at that...

[INIT915 1,119]

www.meritmattersusa.blogspot.com

This viscious justice department is showing amazing signs of racial preference. Go ahead, vote for Obama again....

....and this is coming from a guy who hasn't voted republican too often. Ah how things change....

What's the alternative? Vote Republican and deal with the continued assault on collective bargaining rights, pensions, etc? And, if I remember correct, was it not the Bush Justice Dept that filed the FDNY Vulcan suit?

[antiquefirelt 994]

I truly mean no offense to anyone, but do any people in these minorities feel like the people "trying to protect them" are using a very racial argument? Over and over they state that many minorities cannot be held to the same written exam scores as if these people have a physical or mental issue that will not allow them to score higher?

How does this reflect on those that do score well? Are they statistical outlyers? Do the scores/ethnic lines reflect similarly in high school testing, ASVAB or SATs? It appears the argument brought by the DOJ is that some minorities are less intellectually inclined, so we have to capitalize on their other strengths, even when we understand that with promotion comes greater need for intellectual knowledge.

Edited April 25, 2012 by antiquefirelt

[rayrider 94]

The u.s. justice dept should be ashamed of themselves. We are talking about a position where lives and property are at stake. We all know the smartest officers are not always the best leaders but ill take chances then with someone who was given the job. Lets face it, not everyone can get into law school or med school. And the same should hold true for the career side of the fire service.

[FFLieu 70]

The US Justice Department also tacitly condones the smuggling of arms from the United States to Mexico, irrespective of the fact that two of said illicit weapons were later used to murder US law enforcement agents. You'd think that in light of things such as Fast and Furious, it would have more important things to do. Behold the powers Hope and Change!

[M' Ave 1,466]

What's the alternative? Vote Republican and deal with the continued assault on collective bargaining rights, pensions, etc? And, if I remember correct, was it not the Bush Justice Dept that filed the FDNY Vulcan suit?

I hear you loud and clear! This is the trouble that we face. While the Bush Justice Dept. initially filed this suit at the behest of the Vulcan Society, it is the Obama Justice Dept. that is pushing this agenda considerably further.

You're absolutely right about republican's assaulting our rights and pensions. It's a pretty serious double edged sword.

This is going to sound like a bold statement, but it might just be a reality for me. I'd rather spend time fighting to keep my benefits than watch the job I love turn to sh!t because we're bringing people through the door who don't deserve to be here because they couldn't put in a lick of effort.

I'm not doing this to get rich, not to say I don't need to earn a decent living. I do this because I love it and I don't want it to turn into a place I just go to every day to work. I did that once and while it paid a lot better, I'm never going back!

[Pagers 197]

I'll take someone who knows what he's doing rather then someone who aces tests. It's like yea, on paper you know what your doing but could you apply that to actually doing it.... This is really interesting that the Justice Department is filing a lawsuit rather individuals with in the fire department itself.

[INIT915 1,119]

I'll take someone who knows what he's doing rather then someone who aces tests. It's like yea, on paper you know what your doing but could you apply that to actually doing it.... This is really interesting that the Justice Department is filing a lawsuit rather individuals with in the fire department itself.

It's not uncommon for the DOJ to file lawsuits on behalf of complainants.

[INIT915 1,119]

This is going to sound like a bold statement, but it might just be a reality for me. I'd rather spend time fighting to keep my benefits than watch the job I love turn to sh!t because we're bringing people through the door who don't deserve to be here because they couldn't put in a lick of effort.

It's unfortunate that you (we) have to choose between one or the other. Honestly speaking though, I would probably say I disagree with you slightly. All things being equal, I more loathe the constant and baseless attacks on public sector workers than the idea that less than qualified applicants will be hired. I mean, let's face it, we all already work with guys/gals that never should have been hired, but they had a good day and did well on a rather simple test. The mere fact that the courts are making that an easier pathway, to me, it less of a threat then we face from anti-union, anti-labor forces who are attacking our pay, benefits, pension, etc.

[FirNaTine 370]

Did we soon forget what Political Party our present Governor is a member of? You know the guy up in Albany who is attacking the Public Sector and their Pensions, right? The real problem is and I say it over and over when you "Dumb Down the Job" you get incompetent individuals of all races. It's not a "Black and White" Issue, it's a Standards Issue. I've seen and worked with alot of lazy, dumb a** Caucasians in my Career and it's all a result of lowerinfg the Standards. Least we forget, when you do this eventually your goint to get the same individuals down the road as Officers unfortunately. This is why Promotions should not only be based on a written exam but the Candidates overall Character. Merit should matter! Maybe More Depts. should have a Probation period for Officers for their first year and if they're not cutting it demote them back to FF. I know of some Depts. that actually do have this Policy and others who have it but don't practice what they preach.