Jury Awards Woman 825g in Crash with Firefighter

[gamewell45 258]

I'm not surprised that accidents involving volunteers greatly outnumber paid.

Volunteer firefighters greatly outnumber paid so of course the incidences would be correspondingly higher.

This was just another lame attempt to create animosity between the the vols and paid. Poor judgement behind the wheel is a reflection of the

individual regardless of compensation.

I concur with you 100% on this

[16fire5 693]

I'm not surprised that accidents involving volunteers greatly outnumber paid.

Volunteer firefighters greatly outnumber paid so of course the incidences would be correspondingly higher.

This was just another lame attempt to create animosity between the the vols and paid. Poor judgement behind the wheel is a reflection of the

individual regardless of compensation.

The flaw in that arguement lies in the fact that career firefighters who make up somewhere between 20 and 25% of the firefighters in the US protect 75-80% of the population. They in turn respond to a greater number of responses than volunteers.

For the most part driving on the career side is usually done by more senior members. These members drive apparatus for a living and most of them drive the same rig everyday. They are older and much more familiar with the apparatus they drive. On the volunteer side it is much more common for younger members to drive apparatus and like it or not they do not get much time behind the wheel compared to their career counterparts. It's not hard to see why the statistics are what they are. The big question is how do you change them?

[ny10570 745]

The flaw in that arguement lies in the fact that career firefighters who make up somewhere between 20 and 25% of the firefighters in the US protect 75-80% of the population. They in turn respond to a greater number of responses than volunteers.

For the most part driving on the career side is usually done by more senior members. These members drive apparatus for a living and most of them drive the same rig everyday. They are older and much more familiar with the apparatus they drive. On the volunteer side it is much more common for younger members to drive apparatus and like it or not they do not get much time behind the wheel compared to their career counterparts. It's not hard to see why the statistics are what they are. The big question is how do you change them?

Everything you've stated explains why I would expect volunteers to have substantially worse numbers. What you're discounting is that the accidents include personal and dept vehicles. With every volunteer driving to the station and only one career firefighter per rig driving, the volunteers have many more miles per response. Does this make up for the disparity in total responses? I have no idea.

Edited April 20, 2012 by ny10570

[rayrider 94]

Everything you stated explains why I would expect volunteers to have substantially worse numbers. What your discounting is that the accidents include personal and dept vehicles. With every volunteer driving to the station and only one career firefighter per rig driving the volunteers have many more miles per response. Does this make up for the disparity in total responses? I have no idea.

Keep in mind how easy it would be to exceed the speed limit in a personal vehicle and miscalculate a curvey road in a rural area. Statistics also show a great number of water tankers taking turns too fast resulting in loss of control. Nfpa has a 9 yr study from 1998 to 2007 breaking down statistics on firefighter fatalities in vehicles. Pretty interesting reading. Do a google search!! Speed is the primary factor and lack of safety belts in a majority of the fatalities.

[FFLieu 70]

I'm inclined to agree with ny10570. Let's say for argument sake, you have a career department with 12 guys on duty at any one time. The department has 2 trucks, and the manpower is split, 6 on one truck, and 6 on the other. An alarm comes in that is 5 miles from the station. Each truck will drive 10 miles round trip, for a total of 20 miles driven for just one alarm.

Now let's say that you have a volunteer department with the same amount of personnel and the same amount of apparatus. However, the station is not staffed at the time that the alarm comes in, as it is a nice sunny Saturday afternoon. Each member lives 2 miles away from the station. An alarm comes in for a location that is the same distance away from the station, 5 miles. Each member will drive 4 miles round trip to and from the station, which when extrapolated over the amount of personnel, is 48 miles. Then, the trucks will drive 20 miles to and from the alarm, taking the grand total to 68 miles driven for just one alarm.

At least in this particular example, volunteers would drive approximately 70% more miles for the same alarm. Therefore, with the increased mileage driven, and the laws of statistical probability being what they are, there would definitely be a correlation between the number of volunteers and vehiclular accidents.

The only controlling factor in the equation is due regard. Everyone is taught to drive with due regard and applicable courtesy, regardless of whether they are a career guy or a volunteer. The adjective describing what kind of firefighter the person is, is simply irrelavant.

[ny10570 745]

The only controlling factor in the equation is due regard. Everyone is taught to drive with due regard and applicable courtesy, regardless of whether they are a career guy or a volunteer. The adjective describing what kind of firefighter the person is, is simply irrelavant.

Absolutely

Keep in mind how easy it would be to exceed the speed limit in a personal vehicle and miscalculate a curvey road in a rural area. Statistics also show a great number of water tankers taking turns too fast resulting in loss of control. Nfpa has a 9 yr study from 1998 to 2007 breaking down statistics on firefighter fatalities in vehicles. Pretty interesting reading. Do a google search!! Speed is the primary factor and lack of safety belts in a majority of the fatalities.

I did my searches and I found that analysis ( http://www.nfpa.org/...hicledeaths.pdf ) pretty early on. However it doesn't do anything to explain if volunteers are driving more or less recklessly than career firefighters. Its a breakdown of the causes of the crashes during that period. Absolutely speeding is easier in a car than a tower ladder; but speed in excess of the road road conditions is the killer, not speeding.

The article doesn't say anything about water tenders turning too fast. It says they were involved in 28 crashes resulting in 30 deaths. I'm sure many of these were as a result of attempting to negotiate a turn too fast and the vehicle leaving the road. However fatal crashes can occur from mechanical failure, at rail road crossings, or maybe it was because they were struck. The article doesn't give a break down of the 28 tender crashes. You are inferring your own cause.

Edited April 20, 2012 by ny10570

[JFLYNN 681]

Everything you've stated explains why I would expect volunteers to have substantially worse numbers. What you're discounting is that the accidents include personal and dept vehicles. With every volunteer driving to the station and only one career firefighter per rig driving, the volunteers have many more miles per response. Does this make up for the disparity in total responses? I have no idea.

I don't think I will convince you 10570 so I won't try. But to everyone else, what he fails to realize is that every one of the career Firefighters needed to drive to and from the station as well. A volunteer driving to the station should exercise equally as much care as an off duty career member would. Volunteer Firefighters in POV's are not allowed to disregard traffic regs, so why would they have such a high accident rate if there was not an issue with reckless driving? Also, aren't volunteers often already in the station? I thought that they spent a lot of time there training, cleaning, maintaining, etc.?

Career Fire Departmets statistically put many, many more miles on the road than volunteer Fire Departments so the other point is moot.

The reason there is such a high accident rate is that Volunteer Fire Departments refuse to meet the same selection, training, and accountability standards as do career departments.

Just a reminder...my point in chiming in on this thread was not to attack volunteers, just to point out that it is unfair and harmful to career departments and career Firefighters when news articles are written about a Volunteer or Volunteer Firefighters who really screwed up, and they are not clearly identified as Volunteers, meaning they do not meet the same standards as career Firefighters and their actions should not reflect on those of us who do by necessity live up to those standards and whose livelihoods are put in jeopardy by these articles which add guilt by association unless the author properly recognizes the differences between the career and volunteer fire service.

The same issue goes with the arson problem....

This is not in any way a shot at the large majority of volunteer firefighters who are dedicated, hardworking, honest, etc., people.

It just is what it is.....

I will continue to point these differences out in the appropriate forums to the appropraite people for as long as it is an issue but I will not be drawn in to petty, personal bickering.

Yes, I know this post was not my best work grammatically, etc. but I'm trying to cook dinner, etc. and I just felt the need to bang this out quickly, lol.

Edited April 20, 2012 by JFLYNN

[16fire5 693]

Why continue to fight the statistics. Instead why not share what your department does to prevent accidents. Do you blanket authorize everyone to have a blue light? Nowhere does it say you have to. Do you police your members when it comes to excessive lights? I'm sure we could do a study and show the guys with 8 lights on his car is more prone to drive stupid than the one with 1. Is there a zero tolerance for unsafe driving with the POV and blue lights? Revoking the privilege immediately would probably set a standard to live by. Plus the guys with the blue light driving stupid is broadcasting to everyone they are not just a stupid driver but they are a volunteer firefighter. Never good PR.

As for the tankers I heard Billy Goldfedder touch on it recently and a friend of his is adamant that tankers should not have lights and sirens. I am prone to agree. They are a relatively small number of apparatus and account for a high number of the fatal incidents.

[SECTMB 612]

Oh lets just put this to rest once and for all. The solution is eliminate all volunteer departments and go career.

Create a list from the volunteer ranks of those who wish to become career members, hold a lottery and the selected members will attend the fire academy, graduate and become career members of their formerly volunteer departments.

Adjust the local property tax rate or create a new tax category to pay for it and everyone will be happy, except the taxpayer. But, its not important if it's a financial burden to the populace, what is important is that some people know what's best for everyone and we should listen to them.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm sure we could do a study and show the guys with 8 lights on his car is more prone to drive stupid than the one with 1.

And is this not illegal, which would clearly give the reason for revoking the authorization.

[JFLYNN 681]

Oh lets just put this to rest once and for all. The solution is eliminate all volunteer departments and go career.

Create a list from the volunteer ranks of those who wish to become career members, hold a lottery and the selected members will attend the fire academy, graduate and become career members of their formerly volunteer departments.

Adjust the local property tax rate or create a new tax category to pay for it and everyone will be happy, except the taxpayer. But, its not important if it's a financial burden to the populace, what is important is that some people know what's best for everyone and we should listen to them.

Um, we don't hold lotteries or have popularity contests, we take tests...

And I for one really wouldn't want to see all volunteer departments go career. I'd be happy if we could all just acknowledge the many differences in selection, training, retention, accountability, selection of leaders, culture, etc. between career and volunteer, and admit that it is what it is, instead of just saying, "a Firefighter is a Firefighter..."

What was it in any post on this thread that makes you feel that someone on here feels that "some people know what's best for everyone and we should listen to them"?

[SECTMB 612]

Um, we don't hold lotteries or have popularity contests, we take tests...

And I for one really wouldn't want to see all volunteer departments go career. I'd be happy if we could all just acknowledge the many differences in selection, training, retention, accountability, selection of leaders, culture, etc. between career and volunteer, and admit that it is what it is, instead of just saying, "a Firefighter is a Firefighter..."

What was it in any post on this thread that makes you feel that someone on here feels that "some people know what's best for everyone and we should listen to them"?

Sarcasm aside, I used the term lottery rather than test or exam because if you are drawing from your membership they are already in your system, not applying from outside your system. You could of course limit participation in the lottery to interior FF but how else does everyone get a fair shot if you have many more members than available slots to fill? You open up a bigger can of worms by adjusting the lottery (extra credit toward selection) based on seniority or higher levels of training since everyone will be required to go through the fire academy successfully regardless of past experience.

Keep an engine as a volunteer company and you're not shutting out your membership or the spirit of volunteerism in your community. You are just ensuring that your community is well protected.

The "some people" comment is because I find a lot of posts that are less constructive suggestion and too much 'I know best'. In Westchester the diversity in the make up of the fire service can be extreme. I have been on departments where the hospital was 5 minutes away and all our district had hydrants to other departments where the hospital was 30 minutes away and there were no hydrants. Then factor in population density and types of structures and commercial business to farming, land locked vs. River or Sound and Westchester offers a very diverse playing field and one departments unique circumstances can not necessarily be appreciated by anothers.

And, I find that many, not all, of the paid guys posts sometimes come with a condescending tone toward volunteers. That's my impression. Too much criticism and not enough constructive suggestion.

This post got its legs because someone felt it necessary to point out that the person behind the wheel was a volunteer, not a career and it was so important for the world to know that. Really, what was the point to that? Are all those youtube videos of crashing big paid department rigs all photo shopped? Paid or volunteer, accidents happen and each accident should be evaluated on its own merits as to the cause and the presumption that the biggest contributing factor to the accident was the firefighters level of compensation shouldn't really be a factor.

[JFLYNN 681]

Sarcasm aside, I used the term lottery rather than test or exam because if you are drawing from your membership they are already in your system, not applying from outside your system. You could of course limit participation in the lottery to interior FF but how else does everyone get a fair shot if you have many more members than available slots to fill? You open up a bigger can of worms by adjusting the lottery (extra credit toward selection) based on seniority or higher levels of training since everyone will be required to go through the fire academy successfully regardless of past experience.

Keep an engine as a volunteer company and you're not shutting out your membership or the spirit of volunteerism in your community. You are just ensuring that your community is well protected.

The "some people" comment is because I find a lot of posts that are less constructive suggestion and too much 'I know best'. In Westchester the diversity in the make up of the fire service can be extreme. I have been on departments where the hospital was 5 minutes away and all our district had hydrants to other departments where the hospital was 30 minutes away and there were no hydrants. Then factor in population density and types of structures and commercial business to farming, land locked vs. River or Sound and Westchester offers a very diverse playing field and one departments unique circumstances can not necessarily be appreciated by anothers.

And, I find that many, not all, of the paid guys posts sometimes come with a condescending tone toward volunteers. That's my impression. Too much criticism and not enough constructive suggestion.

This post got its legs because someone felt it necessary to point out that the person behind the wheel was a volunteer, not a career and it was so important for the world to know that. Really, what was the point to that? Are all those youtube videos of crashing big paid department rigs all photo shopped? Paid or volunteer, accidents happen and each accident should be evaluated on its own merits as to the cause and the presumption that the biggest contributing factor to the accident was the firefighters level of compensation shouldn't really be a factor.

"the presumption that the biggest contributing factor to the accident was the firefighters level of compensation shouldn't really be a factor."-

This is absolutely correct! Compensation has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. As I have said previously, the huge differences between career and volunteer firefighters in New York State are ones of selection standards, training standards, physical fitness standards, accountability standards, promotion standards, etc. Basically we are talking about qualifications here. The overwhelming majority of career Firefighters who must by necessity live up to these standards should not suffer blows or be discredited by the actions of a volunteer firefighter or volunteer firefighters who are not required to live up to the same standards.

Particularly in these times, when career Firefighters are under attack in regard to levels of personnel, compensation and benefits, and whether or not we are worth the investment the community is making in our services, it is important that the vast differences between standards for volunteer and career firefighters be emphasized, especially in instances such as the one in Harrison, which are fairly common in the volunteer fire service, and extremely rare on the career side.

Volunteer Firefighters go to great lengths to emphasize to their communities that they are "VOLUNTEER", and are providing a vital service which saves the community oodles and oodles of money. OK, fair enough. Why then, would there be a problem when career Firefighters choose to say, "wait, first of all there are many hidden costs with volunteer fire departments- (pensions, health insurance, tax breaks and other perks and incentives, higher insurance premiums, annual solicitations), and furthermore, career Firefighers must live up to much more stringent standards than do volunteers?"

This is in no way advocating for careeer Firefighters everywhere, nor is it a bash on the many good, dedicated people who serve as volunteer Firefighters in their communities.

I realize I won't convince the poster I am responding to here, or certain other members of this site. They will most likely choose to make a personal attack, or to accuse me of making a personal attack. I expect and accept that. I do realize however, that continuing to calmly explain the differences between career and volunteer Firefighters in New York State, in this forum and elsewhere, will open up the eyes of many in our community. If people have this information, hopefully more will begin to realize the difference, and understand why, in certain communities, career Firefighters are a necessity and worth every penny spent. Perhaps many who read these postings and are open minded will also realize that in certain communities served by volunteers (not all) there are many hidden costs and inneficences. With this realization by the community, maybe, over time, through consolidation and regionalization, more stringent training standards and accountability, things everywhere in the fire service can get better.

Again, thank you for keeping this thread going and thus giving me additional opportunities to discuss these important issues in the Fire Service.

Edited April 21, 2012 by JFLYNN

[Bnechis 3,961]

I used the term lottery rather than test or exam because if you are drawing from your membership they are already in your system, not applying from outside your system. You could of course limit participation in the lottery to interior FF but how else does everyone get a fair shot if you have many more members than available slots to fill? You open up a bigger can of worms by adjusting the lottery (extra credit toward selection) based on seniority or higher levels of training since everyone will be required to go through the fire academy successfully regardless of past experience.

This concept is what the Mayor of Stamford appears to be attempting. In NYS this was made illegal when Civil service came into existance almost 100 years ago. And the reason it did was to prevent nepotism. In addition to it violating civil service law, I suspect the Feds would not like the "mix" you might get, if it does not match the community "mix".

[ny10570 745]

I don't think I will convince you 10570 so I won't try. But to everyone else, what he fails to realize is that every one of the career Firefighters needed to drive to and from the station as well. A volunteer driving to the station should exercise equally as much care as an off duty career member would. Volunteer Firefighters in POV's are not allowed to disregard traffic regs, so why would they have such a high accident rate if there was not an issue with reckless driving? Also, aren't volunteers often already in the station? I thought that they spent a lot of time there training, cleaning, maintaining, etc.?

Career Fire Departmets statistically put many, many more miles on the road than volunteer Fire Departments so the other point is moot.

The reason there is such a high accident rate is that Volunteer Fire Departments refuse to meet the same selection, training, and accountability standards as do career departments.

I just ask for facts. You clearly don't have them in this specific instance. Maybe no one has made the effort to track accidents per mile for firefighters career or volunteer. Maybe you have the connections to get the NFPA to look into this. I don't know how to make this any clearer. I don't give a rats arse who is more dangerous behind the wheel, I only want to see the statistics proving it. Lets look at NYC. I can't find a single instance where a volunteer fire company was involved in a fatal collision. I know of three involving FDNY. Now maybe the volunteers don't even have enough road miles to make a statistically significant comparison to FDNY, but on the surface it sure seems like the volunteers are safer. No one in their right mind would consider that a fair comparison. Similarly the MTA is the deadliest city agency. They've killed far and away more civilians than anyone else and are always governed by VTL. Their drivers receive more training and have more time behind the wheel than FDNY. But their road miles are so high it would be impossible for me to just guess at which agency is statistically more dangerous.

Do career fire departments actually put more road miles on than volunteer FDs? They absolutely have more calls, there are stats documenting that. But do they have more miles? I'm still can't find anything addressing that. What I can find shows that far more land area is covered by volunteers.

Absolutely every paid firefighter must first get to work, but unless I am mistaken, those accidents are not included in these numbers. Volunteers responding to their station for a run are included. Similarly volunteers headed to the station for a parade, meeting, drill, etc are not counted.

Again, you are correct that volunteers do not meet the same standards for selection, training, and accountability. However there is NOTHING demonstrating that volunteers are crashing more frequently than career firefighters and even less proof that the training gap has anything to do with it.

Oh lets just put this to rest once and for all. The solution is eliminate all volunteer departments and go career.

Create a list from the volunteer ranks of those who wish to become career members, hold a lottery and the selected members will attend the fire academy, graduate and become career members of their formerly volunteer departments.

Adjust the local property tax rate or create a new tax category to pay for it and everyone will be happy, except the taxpayer. But, its not important if it's a financial burden to the populace, what is important is that some people know what's best for everyone and we should listen to them.

So you're just going to pout and go home? There are a lot of flaws in the volunteer fire service. First and foremost that it is an inferior level of service than you would receive from a paid department. The deciding factor between the two is cost. If you could get a functional paid department or reasonably close to what you're paying for a volunteer dept you'd stick with the volunteers?? You'd be a fool. That being said there is still a very large need for professional volunteer fire service in this country. The key is professional and that starts with addressing flaws and inadequacies within your own service.

Edited April 21, 2012 by ny10570

[SECTMB 612]

Its been an interesting forum topic. But, in the end, with regard to the driving, does it really matter whether an accident occurs with a volunteer driving a POV or a volunteer or career member driving a dept. apparatus or command vehicle? Not to the person who gets injured. Everyone is subject to the rules of the road and if

you drive like a jerk, well paid or not, you're still a jerk and you shouldn't be allowed the responsibility.

With all the other stuff, no one, not even myself, is ever going to successfully argue that someone whose full time career affords them the time and opportunity to achieve experience and skills that others can only attempt on a part time basis will not perform the job to a potentially higher level, standard if you like. I also have no problem accepting that eventually, due to lots of factors, most Westchester villages will have to transition to career departments.

I was a member of three different village volunteer departments and I am well aware of all the pros and cons that have ever been posted on these forums. I now live in a village with a career department and I take some reassurance in knowing that two miles to my North, Station 20 is staffed with three firefighters and two paramedics, as is Station 27 two miles to my East.

I will again state, however, that I believe our career brethren do not truly appreciate how difficult it is to be a volunteer these days. Despite the 'different' standards, the training requirements, per OSHA, have increased over the years, and changes in technology with regard to fire load and extrication practices, have changed and keeping up with all this takes much more time than it did previously. Call volume, particularly EMS and AFA responses have increased exponentially over the years. And EMS calls take longer due to the amount of paperwork required. We don't have the 'luxury' of setting aside time for a specific shift. 24/7 we have to drop whatever else we were doing and respond. Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, bathing the kids, mowing the lawn, washing the car, work, study, sleeping, whatever. And, that brush fire, car fire, structure fire, MVA or whatever isn't going to be any different just because we're volunteers.

One of the big issues on the forums these days is response, or lack of. I believe the principal reason behind the lack of response, in many instances, is precisely because the demands of your professional and private lives does not allow enough time to adequately volunteer your time to the FD. This is why I feel that there will continue to be a decline in volunteerism and a move toward career staffing, starting, as it has with EMS, by having minimum paid staffing during the weekdays.

This is the basis for my rub with all the volunteer firehouses being built or renovated and not making accommodations for crew quarters.

When my nephews joined up, I told them I thought that they would be the last generation (five in our family) to be volunteers in our area. I still think that will be the case.

The changes will come, over time, in some places sooner than later, in some easily in others kicking and screaming. But they will come.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Its been an interesting forum topic. But, in the end, with regard to the driving, does it really matter whether an accident occurs with a volunteer driving a POV or a volunteer or career member driving a dept. apparatus or command vehicle? Not to the person who gets injured. Everyone is subject to the rules of the road and if

you drive like a jerk, well paid or not, you're still a jerk and you shouldn't be allowed the responsibility.

You're still missing the point as you're seeming to take the message personally. Career FD's are struggling to maintain safe staffing levels, budgets are being hacked, members are being forced to give up significant pay and benefits to remain on the job, only to face deeper cuts the following year and politicians will say anything to be "that guy that finally cut taxes". So while these FD's struggle, the public is assaulted with misrepresentations and half-truths about the FD. Many of these are just generalizations about firefighters. The general public doesn't see the difference between volunteer/POC FD's and career staffed ones. Thus every bad piece of press any firefighter creates hurts the fire service as a whole, especially fueling those politicians who seek to use anything they can to make cuts.

There are few other fields where volunteer services or those with significant different oversight are compared without regard to their career counterparts. Can you imagine using the term US military to describe private contractors like Blackwater or Triple Canopy,etc.? The career fire service unlike most, but not all, VFD's requires unbiased testing for hiring and promotions, we require far more hours of training, requisite driver training, and a host of other issues our POC/volunteer brethren seem to be able to skate by without, or reduce the contact time significantly. So when we're fighting uphill battles and trying to show the public what they get for their dollars, we take offense to those things that tarnish the public's view.

The general public doesn't know a good job from a bad one, if your FD can arrive in a reasonable amount of time and not look like a monkey F-ing a football, they'll probably thank you, even if you burn their house down with poor tactics (career or volunteer). It seems that there are some good and great VFD's, but by in large those are fewer probably not due to hard work and dedication, but due to lack of proper funding as a whole, this is what makes having a VFD so palatable to the public: their low cost and they must do a good job (they just can't tell). Sure there are career FD' that suck, and good ones with companies or individuals that suck, but based solely on basic requirements, this they're fewer.

As I've said before, I started as a volunteer and am confident in saying I've worked with some great firefighters that I'd be glad to work with any day, some far more than some career firefighters I've worked with and for. The biggest daily difference that gives our career staffing a leg up is the constant working together, starting with a deeper knowledge base as a rookie and then working shift after shift as a team makes for easier success than the typical POC/VFD. It's not disparaging to the Volunteer FS, yet a realization that when this is your vocation you can't help but gain knowledge and experience a faster rate in general.

So when some fool crashes in a POV or chief's buggy on the way to a fire, passing another member responding to the same job it makes us all look bad. The simple fix would be to require the same standards for training and disciplinary actions, but that's been fought tooth and nail by the volunteer sector, so the alternative is to show the public there's a difference between the career FS and the volunteer FS.

I will again state, however, that I believe our career brethren do not truly appreciate how difficult it is to be a volunteer these days. Despite the 'different' standards, the training requirements, per OSHA, have increased over the years, and changes in technology with regard to fire load and extrication practices, have changed and keeping up with all this takes much more time than it did previously. Call volume, particularly EMS and AFA responses have increased exponentially over the years. And EMS calls take longer due to the amount of paperwork required. We don't have the 'luxury' of setting aside time for a specific shift. 24/7 we have to drop whatever else we were doing and respond. Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, bathing the kids, mowing the lawn, washing the car, work, study, sleeping, whatever. And, that brush fire, car fire, structure fire, MVA or whatever isn't going to be any different just because we're volunteers.

Funny thing is none of those things that increased were exclusive to the volunteer FS. The career job also is required to keep up while doing more calls. Maybe you think many career FD's had a lot of down time so these things came and we just fit them in around our leisurely schedules? That's certainly one public sentiment often fueled by misinformed people and worse, volunteer firefighters (why? I can't fathom other than not making the grade?) My job is constantly being forced to come up with more policies and training for things that the VFD's all around us aren't accountable to. Yet we're threatened with fines by the dept of labor if we fail to comply. So while that brush fire, car fire, structure fire, MVA or whatever isn't going to be any different just because you're volunteers, there's high likelihood the outcome will be. Lucky for all but a small percentage, the public will still think you did a great job, and instead of the converse (stupid POV accident blamed on generic "firefighters") the career FS will be shown why volunteers can work "as good" but cheaper. It appears some can have their cake and eat it too.

[SECTMB 612]

You're still missing the point as you're seeming to take the message personally. Career FD's are struggling to maintain safe staffing levels, budgets are being hacked, members are being forced to give up significant pay and benefits to remain on the job, only to face deeper cuts the following year and politicians will say anything to be "that guy that finally cut taxes". So while these FD's struggle, the public is assaulted with misrepresentations and half-truths about the FD. Many of these are just generalizations about firefighters. The general public doesn't see the difference between volunteer/POC FD's and career staffed ones. Thus every bad piece of press any firefighter creates hurts the fire service as a whole, especially fueling those politicians who seek to use anything they can to make cuts.

There are few other fields where volunteer services or those with significant different oversight are compared without regard to their career counterparts. Can you imagine using the term US military to describe private contractors like Blackwater or Triple Canopy,etc.? The career fire service unlike most, but not all, VFD's requires unbiased testing for hiring and promotions, we require far more hours of training, requisite driver training, and a host of other issues our POC/volunteer brethren seem to be able to skate by without, or reduce the contact time significantly. So when we're fighting uphill battles and trying to show the public what they get for their dollars, we take offense to those things that tarnish the public's view.

The general public doesn't know a good job from a bad one, if your FD can arrive in a reasonable amount of time and not look like a monkey F-ing a football, they'll probably thank you, even if you burn their house down with poor tactics (career or volunteer). It seems that there are some good and great VFD's, but by in large those are fewer probably not due to hard work and dedication, but due to lack of proper funding as a whole, this is what makes having a VFD so palatable to the public: their low cost and they must do a good job (they just can't tell). Sure there are career FD' that suck, and good ones with companies or individuals that suck, but based solely on basic requirements, this they're fewer.

As I've said before, I started as a volunteer and am confident in saying I've worked with some great firefighters that I'd be glad to work with any day, some far more than some career firefighters I've worked with and for. The biggest daily difference that gives our career staffing a leg up is the constant working together, starting with a deeper knowledge base as a rookie and then working shift after shift as a team makes for easier success than the typical POC/VFD. It's not disparaging to the Volunteer FS, yet a realization that when this is your vocation you can't help but gain knowledge and experience a faster rate in general.

So when some fool crashes in a POV or chief's buggy on the way to a fire, passing another member responding to the same job it makes us all look bad. The simple fix would be to require the same standards for training and disciplinary actions, but that's been fought tooth and nail by the volunteer sector, so the alternative is to show the public there's a difference between the career FS and the volunteer FS.

Funny thing is none of those things that increased were exclusive to the volunteer FS. The career job also is required to keep up while doing more calls. Maybe you think many career FD's had a lot of down time so these things came and we just fit them in around our leisurely schedules? That's certainly one public sentiment often fueled by misinformed people and worse, volunteer firefighters (why? I can't fathom other than not making the grade?) My job is constantly being forced to come up with more policies and training for things that the VFD's all around us aren't accountable to. Yet we're threatened with fines by the dept of labor if we fail to comply. So while that brush fire, car fire, structure fire, MVA or whatever isn't going to be any different just because you're volunteers, there's high likelihood the outcome will be. Lucky for all but a small percentage, the public will still think you did a great job, and instead of the converse (stupid POV accident blamed on generic "firefighters") the career FS will be shown why volunteers can work "as good" but cheaper. It appears some can have their cake and eat it too.

I think you're missing some of my points or I'm just not offering enough clarity. Paid or not, there must be personal accountability. The public is witness to screw ups by paid and volunteer, remember the ESU guy that dropped the car back onto the motorcyclist some months ago? I know that some people in our village, those that moved out from the City, had no clue the FD was volunteer, staffed by their neighbor. I personally tend to be more aware of my actions when I wear an FD shirt just because I wouldn't want to do anything that reflected poorly on the department or the service as a whole. Same with driving, your blue light identifies you as an FD member and if the person grants you the right of way, fine, if you blow their doors off or otherwise act like an a**, it reflects poorly on everyone else in the FD.

But there are lots of improprieties that have involved the paid departments and that knife cuts both ways.

I have acknowledged elsewhere that the paid departments are under budget attack as are the volunteer departments fund raising efforts. These are hard times for everyone.

Its great to want everyone to have the same standardized training, but I think the volunteer departments have reached the tipping point. Our formerly up and coming young members are leaving as their outside careers get underway because they can't afford to live in our village. Those that can afford to move in are not the volunteer firefighter type so memberships are declining and you have the corresponding effect on manpower and response. Other, established members continue to try to juggle jobs, family and volunteering. Jobs and family come first.

So, as I said previously, its all changing, like it or not, and I see an expansion for career departments coming, just out of necessity. Municipalities are just going to have to bite the bullet and make the choices between adequate emergency services and non emergency services.

[helicopper 1,050]

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread is being carefully monitored as complaints have been received from both sides of the argument. There have been some potentially inflammatory comments but the overwhelming majority of contributors to the thread have argued the facts and engaged in a healthy debate. That is encouraged and I thank you for that.

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[antiquefirelt 994]

I think you're missing some of my points or I'm just not offering enough clarity. Paid or not, there must be personal accountability.

I hope we all agree there must be a higher level of personal accountability. I'm pretty sure I and others understand your point of view and aren't disagreeing, merely pointing out that sometimes it's not about just judging everyone as an individual. It's a nice thought, but the reality is the public very often doesn't do it, and it's they who are holding the purse strings and they whom we need to educate so they can see what the politicians are doing to the safety of their community. We all should be very aware that there are countless firefighters who are dedicated professionals to the craft amongst the volunteer ranks as well as far too many schlep-rocks amongst career personnel. I know the personnel in my department have had endless conversations about personal accountability and not doing anything at all that could hurt, especially during difficult times. It's not that these things shouldn't be the norm, rather than requiring special attention, but it kind of forces every member into policing each other as we all know the consequence of harming our public image.

As for improprieties amongst career FD's? Of course there are, we like most of the work force, hire humans and have yet to figure out the perfect testing to ensure we keep out those who will end up doing harm. The problem with the knife cutting both ways is: Does it really? If some career guy is busted selling drugs does it harm the volunteers so much? Not likely, the public has a special place in their hearts for those of us whom they pay with their hard earned dollars and then we screw up. If the same guy is a volunteer, they'll blame the economy for his lack of work and the need to augment his finances.

Much or all of this flap was in response to Chief Flynn's statement that he'd like to see the story corrected to show the senseless actions were that of a volunteer chief. Most career jobs are trying to step up their games on all fronts to ensure the public sees them for the professionals they are. It's difficult to do this when the non-career departments are a large segment that cannot be managed and fight the very standards that would level the playing field. While most of us do not wish to drive a greater wedge between career and volunteer firefighters, at times like this we see the need to differentiate. While career personnel seek to differentiate themselves from people like the volunteer chief in the article, I'd think most volunteers would like to show the public why they and their department aren't like the same guy?

Edited April 22, 2012 by antiquefirelt