Westchester County Incident Responses

[fdny41 11]

I think Westchester County needs a more organized Response structure.

For Example a 10-75 or working fire response should look like this:

4 Engines

2 Ladders

1 Fast Truck - With chief from department of designated Fast team.

3 or 2 chiefs depending on availability.

2nd Alarm assignment should look something like this:

WCDES Field Communications

3 Additional engines

2 Trucks

1 Rescue/Utility

And a 2nd Alarm Chief

Safety chief

3rd Alarm

2 additional Engines

1 Truck

Mask Service Unit

2 Chiefs

Rehab vehicle

WCDES Support Unit ( if available)

This is just a rough outline

Please i would like some input on all of your thoughts good and bad.

[99subi 121]

Great idea, but it will never happen,something is in the water in this county...

[fdny41 11]

I also think all departments should be familiar with the firefighting resources that we have in the county and that they are readily available.

[firedude 985]

I like the concept, but it will never work with Westchester. Every department/district/municipality is different and has its own needs. You also didn’t factor in Tankers, Battalion chiefs and most importantly, manpower! I don’t think it will happen, then again…

Edited April 17, 2012 by firedude

[99subi 121]

IMO i believe they are aware of them, but choose not to use them for the fear of not having "total control" over "their scene." From the outside it would almost appear to be some kind of little man syndrome that haunts them. While this is not true for some depts in the county, it is for quite a few.

[fdny41 11]

I completely agree with you 99subi i think lots of departments are reluctant to request assistance from county resourses. Also manpower is the biggest problem.

[ny10570 745]

That can absolutely happen today in Westchester. If your dept establishes that as their dispatch policy with 60, then that is what they will get. I've seen some good ones, but none address the chief pile that usually results.

Say my FD, the world renowned and well respected Mt Crumpit FD responds with 2 engines, ladder, rescue and 3 chiefs. Upon transmission of the 10-75 signal 60 would automatically add whatever I previously arranged to have added. In this case its 2 engines, fast w/ chief, and a ladder. 60 is so reasonable you can even establish different dispatch protocols for different parts of town. No hydrants out in Bumm Ridge, they'll be happy to assign a tanker task force as soon as the fire is confirmed if that is what we ask for..

The hardest change would be getting depts to stop picking and choosing their favorite neighbors. We get it that Nantasket FD lets you use their training center and Kartroo throws a sweet parade, but Whoville is closest so lets use them.

Now the heads up dispatcher listening to the radio traffic from the fire hears that this fire is really cooking. They can start looking at who is next up if it goes to a second alarm. That way if Gwark Island, the first due second alarm engine catches a fire (its rare, but multiple incidents do occasionally occur) the dispatcher can line up whom ever they'll need and quickly turn out these depts when the call inevitably comes in.

The county has spent a good chunk of change upgrading 60 over the years and the dispatchers are from what I understand very well trained. Might as well use the service we're paying for.

Edited April 17, 2012 by ny10570

[Bnechis 3,961]

The hardest change would be getting depts to stop picking and choosing their favorite neighbors. We get it that Nantasket FD lets you use their training center and Kartroo throws a sweet parade, but Whoville is closest so lets use them.

It would not be so hard if the neighbors had the same minimum standards for response time, training, officers, manning, etc. Until there is standardization, its less to do with liking one neighbor more than another, but if you can not get 2-3 well trained interior firefighters and an experienced officer out the door without toning out multiple times or waiting for a recall of off duty firefighters, than the IC is better off getting another dept. from farther away.

Also, everyone seams to think that mutual aid will resolve all the staffing problems. Mutual aid, reguardless of how good they are is 2nd rate. ISO credits them at 90% of their home town rating when they come to help and its because they know that with different SOP's, tactics, tools and standards, they never perform as well out of town as they do in town.

Westchester can get 30 Engines, 15 trucks, 5 rescues and 30 chiefs to a major incident, but they will not perform as a single unit like any major FD can.

[wraftery 1,275]

Regarding bnechis's required resources count:

This seems like a lot of resources, but it is not. The operational period for members on the initial assignment is 20 minutes because the SCBAs that are being used will last about 20 min. At that point they are going to have to be replaced with fresh troops.

This means that the additional personnel that are responding on the Working Fire call would have to be at least double what you had on the initial assignment. And that's only to maintain an uninterrupted fire attack.

In Westchester, is is rare to hear that Staging has been established. More often than not, incoming companies are being put to work immediately. Is this an indication that we are always "coming from behind, and rarely proactive?

[ny10570 745]

It would not be so hard if the neighbors had the same minimum standards for response time, training, officers, manning, etc. Until there is standardization, its less to do with liking one neighbor more than another, but if you can not get 2-3 well trained interior firefighters and an experienced officer out the door without toning out multiple times or waiting for a recall of off duty firefighters, than the IC is better off getting another dept. from farther away.

Also, everyone seams to think that mutual aid will resolve all the staffing problems. Mutual aid, reguardless of how good they are is 2nd rate. ISO credits them at 90% of their home town rating when they come to help and its because they know that with different SOP's, tactics, tools and standards, they never perform as well out of town as they do in town.

Westchester can get 30 Engines, 15 trucks, 5 rescues and 30 chiefs to a major incident, but they will not perform as a single unit like any major FD can.

Aside from the paid depts that can guarantee staffing the rest of Westchester is pretty much the same crap shoot. Skipping a dept because they cannot meet same standards with which you operate is a perfectly reasonable approach. Too often that's not the reason towns are skipped.

I was simply offering a move towards standardization that could start right now. A first step in the right direction. An actually unified regional dept is best case scenario still years away.

[fdny41 11]

I also think instead of each department making up its own response assignment all volunteer department should have the same response assignment with the exception for departments with tankers.

MVA Response 2 Engines 1 Truck and Chiefs depending on availability.

Any-calls at a building over 5 Storys Should require 3 Engines and 2 Trucks.

Etc.

[BFD1054 1,552]

I also think instead of each department making up its own response assignment all volunteer department should have the same response assignment with the exception for departments with tankers.

MVA Response 2 Engines 1 Truck and Chiefs depending on availability.

Any-calls at a building over 5 Storys Should require 3 Engines and 2 Trucks.

Etc.

K, ill bite. I like your line of thinking in regards to alarm assignments and mutual-aid. Its been discussed time and time again on here and its a shame that it hasn't gone anywhere.

But in your post that i have quoted, i must disagree. It seems as though you're going off of City responses with your numbers for MVAs and such. Many Volunteer FDs dont even have a Ladder. So why do you think all Vol FD's should respond with 2 Engines and a Truck to MVAs?

My vol FD is fortunate enough to have 3 Engines, 2 Trucks and a Heavy Rescue that respond out of 2 stations. For an MVA, our Rescue is 1st Due out of our Station 1. An Engine would be 2nd due and sometimes we respond with 2 Engines. Many times, the IC will turn one of the Engines around, depending on the need. We NEVER send a Truck on an MVA, but thats our response.

Then to say any call at a 5+ story building should get 3 and 2? As i said, some Vol FDs dont have 1 Truck, let alone 2. Many vol FDs dont have 3 Engines either. So are you suggesting mutual-aid for these responses?

[fdny41 11]

Yes 2 trucks would respond but only if it is a smoke condition or a reported fire.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

IMO i believe they are aware of them, but choose not to use them for the fear of not having "total control" over "their scene." From the outside it would almost appear to be some kind of little man syndrome that haunts them. While this is not true for some depts in the county, it is for quite a few.

Is Westchester really this screwed up? If not give some credit to the up and coming young Officers rising the ranks today. I know my County has come a LOOONG way from that sort of thinking.

[fdny41 11]

As in the recent long Island brush fire, They special called many brush units, tankers, fire police units, rehab units, ATV's. I think Westchester departments should known which departments have certain pieces of apparatus that they could use to there advantage.

I thought they did a very good job in long island with the mutual aid during the very large brush fire. And part of it is knowing what resources you have.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I think Westchester departments should known which departments have certain pieces of apparatus that they could use to there advantage.

60-Control has all of this information within their CAD system which they use very well to the advantage to all departments they serve.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Yes 2 trucks would respond but only if it is a smoke condition or a reported fire.

Based on this logic, we can just send the chief or PD to check and advise. If we wait until there is a smoke condition or reported fire the truck will never make the front of the building.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Is Westchester really this screwed up? If not give some credit to the up and coming young Officers rising the ranks today. I know my County has come a LOOONG way from that sort of thinking.

YES it is!

[Bnechis 3,961]

As in the recent long Island brush fire, They special called many brush units, tankers, fire police units, rehab units, ATV's. I think Westchester departments should known which departments have certain pieces of apparatus that they could use to there advantage.

I thought they did a very good job in long island with the mutual aid during the very large brush fire. And part of it is knowing what resources you have.

60-Control has all of this information within their CAD system which they use very well to the advantage to all departments they serve.

Just because 60 has it in a list (CAD) does not mean it will ever get called, if the IC does not know it exists.

In the new Battalion Chiefs Classes for FDNY, one this they do is show all the special equipment so the chiefs know what can be called.

[firedude 985]

As in the recent long Island brush fire, They special called many brush units, tankers, fire police units, rehab units, ATV's. I think Westchester departments should known which departments have certain pieces of apparatus that they could use to there advantage.

This is one of the best parts of Fleet Day, seeing some of the neat toys westchester deparmtents have at their disposal.

From the event poster:

Save the date for Demo Day where municipalities, departments and vendors have a unique opportunity to show and share information about their fleet, equipment and specialty services

Yonkers Squad 11:

Yonkers Colapse Rig

Edited April 18, 2012 by firedude

[firebuff860 54]

Why should I send my truck to a car accident if it does not carry extrication equipment? Standardize response based on manpower,equipment capability, and training. Let's go back to basics. What does your Dept require to be interior qualified (NYS training classes)? Do you require annual physicals? Do you require annual training? Do you require annual attendance? Do you require older members to update their outdated training certs, or do you grandfather them in? I would rather call in a Dept with 3-4 trained FF's that is 10 minutes away than call in a neighbor who will show up with a driver and 2 exterior firefighters in 4 minutes.

Before you respond to this, think long and hard about which Dept you belong to.

[Spartan052 43]

K, ill bite. I like your line of thinking in regards to alarm assignments and mutual-aid. Its been discussed time and time again on here and its a shame that it hasn't gone anywhere.

But in your post that i have quoted, i must disagree. It seems as though you're going off of City responses with your numbers for MVAs and such. Many Volunteer FDs dont even have a Ladder. So why do you think all Vol FD's should respond with 2 Engines and a Truck to MVAs?

My vol FD is fortunate enough to have 3 Engines, 2 Trucks and a Heavy Rescue that respond out of 2 stations. For an MVA, our Rescue is 1st Due out of our Station 1. An Engine would be 2nd due and sometimes we respond with 2 Engines. Many times, the IC will turn one of the Engines around, depending on the need. We NEVER send a Truck on an MVA, but thats our response.

Then to say any call at a 5+ story building should get 3 and 2? As i said, some Vol FDs dont have 1 Truck, let alone 2. Many vol FDs dont have 3 Engines either. So are you suggesting mutual-aid for these responses?

you got to look at it from your old BFD stand point

[PFDRes47cue 653]

IMHO the system will not work in Westchester. Also, I think that a Rehab Unit should be utilized prior to the 3rd alarm.

[Dinosaur 844]

K, ill bite. I like your line of thinking in regards to alarm assignments and mutual-aid. Its been discussed time and time again on here and its a shame that it hasn't gone anywhere.

Then to say any call at a 5+ story building should get 3 and 2? As i said, some Vol FDs dont have 1 Truck, let alone 2. Many vol FDs dont have 3 Engines either. So are you suggesting mutual-aid for these responses?

If you're suggesting that a possible fire in a 5+ story building shouldn't get at least 3 engines and 2 trucks, I'd have to say you're missing the point. Unless it's an unoccupied commercial (and how many of them are commercial, they're almost all residential), you're going to need every bit of that manpower to fight any kind of fire and do searches, ventilation, etc. At best, 3&2 will get you 20 guys if they're all fully staffed with qualified FF.

How many guys get used on an initial attack on the 3rd floor of a 5 story walk-up like the old apartment buildings and "brownstone" style buildings all over the Hudson Valley? I'm guessing there aren't alot of extra bodies.

Now throw in people on the fire escapes or in need of actual rescue by ladder and you're out of personnel with full rigs.

As wraftery said, we have to stop playing catch-up and start getting ahead!

[Dinosaur 844]

Why should I send my truck to a car accident if it does not carry extrication equipment?

Standardize response based on manpower,equipment capability, and training. Let's go back to basics.

What does your Dept require to be interior qualified (NYS training classes)?

Do you require annual physicals? Do you require annual training?

Do you require annual attendance?

Do you require older members to update their outdated training certs, or do you grandfather them in? I would rather call in a Dept with 3-4 trained FF's that is 10 minutes away than call in a neighbor who will show up with a driver and 2 exterior firefighters in 4 minutes.

Before you respond to this, think long and hard about which Dept you belong to.

Many good points in this post but the one thing I'm going to jump on is agreeing about not sending unnecessary apparatus to calls. Sending two engines and a truck to every car accident is overkill. If there's a fire, send an extra engine. If extrication is required, send the appropriate rescue vehicle. Just sending 2 and 1 to be "standard" is a waste.

As for your other points, all valid and good things to ask. The problem is nobody asks at Department meetings. They ask here and other forums where they vent and commiserate about the problems. Who's actually fixing the problems?

We need one single standard for FF in NYS and we have to stop calling those who aren't qualified, "firefighter" until they are.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Why should I send my truck to a car accident if it does not carry extrication equipment? Standardize response based on manpower,equipment capability, and training. Let's go back to basics. What does your Dept require to be interior qualified (NYS training classes)? Do you require annual physicals? Do you require annual training? Do you require annual attendance? Do you require older members to update their outdated training certs, or do you grandfather them in? I would rather call in a Dept with 3-4 trained FF's that is 10 minutes away than call in a neighbor who will show up with a driver and 2 exterior firefighters in 4 minutes.

Before you respond to this, think long and hard about which Dept you belong to.

OUTSTANDING point. Number of apparatus isn't the issue here. Realistically how many engines are actually going to be pumping at that job, how many aerials will be flying? Not as many as are on scene. We can't starting saying we need "X number of engines" until we determine how many QUALIFIED personnel have to be on those engines. I could get you 10 engines with a driver, 1 interior FF and a junior to the fire in 10 minutes, but what good would that do you? None.

Here's where NIMS comes in people. Resource Typing. The county needs to identify what qualifies as an engine company, truck company, etc. I know this next sentence is going to sound CRAZY, but maybe we could even use the handy-dandy resource typing guides that FEMA put out?

FEMA - Typed Resource Definitions - Fire & HAZMAT

FEMA - Typed Resource Definitions - Emergency Medical Services

FEMA - Typed Resource Definitions - Law Enforcement & Security

Isn't this what all our local/regional/county/state emergency management officals should be doing anyway? Why aren't we using it?????

[Dinosaur 844]

OUTSTANDING point. Number of apparatus isn't the issue here. Realistically how many engines are actually going to be pumping at that job, how many aerials will be flying? Not as many as are on scene. We can't starting saying we need "X number of engines" until we determine how many QUALIFIED personnel have to be on those engines. I could get you 10 engines with a driver, 1 interior FF and a junior to the fire in 10 minutes, but what good would that do you? None.

Here's where NIMS comes in people. Resource Typing. The county needs to identify what qualifies as an engine company, truck company, etc. I know this next sentence is going to sound CRAZY, but maybe we could even use the handy-dandy resource typing guides that FEMA put out?

FEMA - Typed Resource Definitions - Fire & HAZMAT

FEMA - Typed Resource Definitions - Emergency Medical Services

FEMA - Typed Resource Definitions - Law Enforcement & Security

Isn't this what all our local/regional/county/state emergency management officals should be doing anyway? Why aren't we using it?????

I'm all for this but do type 1 engines really need to carry 300 feet of garden hose (1 inch)?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I'm all for this but do type 1 engines really need to carry 300 feet of garden hose (1 inch)?

I'm not a well versed NIMS Scholar, but yes, I believe they do. But as I understand it, not every incident requires Type 1 resources. Maybe someone here is more familiar than I with these concepts.

There is also resource typing for personnel as well, I just can't seem to find that on the site right now.

[BFD1054 1,552]

Why should I send my truck to a car accident if it does not carry extrication equipment? Standardize response based on manpower,equipment capability, and training. Let's go back to basics. What does your Dept require to be interior qualified (NYS training classes)? Do you require annual physicals? Do you require annual training? Do you require annual attendance? Do you require older members to update their outdated training certs, or do you grandfather them in? I would rather call in a Dept with 3-4 trained FF's that is 10 minutes away than call in a neighbor who will show up with a driver and 2 exterior firefighters in 4 minutes.

Before you respond to this, think long and hard about which Dept you belong to.

Firebuff...excellent points and right on the point i was trying to drive home. Sending 2 & 1 may not be the right assingment in many places. You need to send the appropriate apparatus and manpower to each call. This is vastly different in the volunteer service.

you got to look at it from your old BFD stand point

Spartan...i was certainly keeping BFD in mind when posting. The original poster said that 2 Engines and 1 Truck should respond on all MVAs. Does BFD have a Truck? No. Also, should BFD send E160 AND E161 to an MVA? Probably not. BFD has a Rescue and a rescue-pumper to send to MVA's.

Am i missing what you are trying to get accross?

If you're suggesting that a possible fire in a 5+ story building shouldn't get at least 3 engines and 2 trucks, I'd have to say you're missing the point. Unless it's an unoccupied commercial (and how many of them are commercial, they're almost all residential), you're going to need every bit of that manpower to fight any kind of fire and do searches, ventilation, etc. At best, 3&2 will get you 20 guys if they're all fully staffed with qualified FF.

How many guys get used on an initial attack on the 3rd floor of a 5 story walk-up like the old apartment buildings and "brownstone" style buildings all over the Hudson Valley? I'm guessing there aren't alot of extra bodies.

Now throw in people on the fire escapes or in need of actual rescue by ladder and you're out of personnel with full rigs.

As wraftery said, we have to stop playing catch-up and start getting ahead!

Dinosour...no, i am definately NOT saying a fire in a 5+ story building shouldnt get a 3 and 1 response. I was simply asking if the OP was implying the use of mutual-aid for many VFDs to be able to have such a response.

Also, lets face it; What good is 3 and 1 or 4 and 2 or whatever if theyre not filled with properly trained members?

I think the OP is thinking a City type response should be implimented in the "burbs." Could you have such response assignments? Sure you could, but only as good as the crews on theses rig's.

My major point was that many VFDs dont have the # of apparatus that the OP is suggesting should respond on certain alarms. Again, it comes down to individual needs of individual depts.

[Bnechis 3,961]

My major point was that many VFDs dont have the # of apparatus that the OP is suggesting should respond on certain alarms. Again, it comes down to individual needs of individual depts.

ROFLMAO......In Westchester their are not enough apparatus to respond. Thats funny.

While individual depts may not have 4 and 2 or whatever, its available within minutes.

The real issue is will the have sufficent numbers of trained responders.