Major Incident Response and Coordination

[Dinosaur 844]

As I read the IA about the 4th alarm with maydays in the Bronx yesterday (thanks ryang), I am confronted with strong concerns and reservations about how that would happen anywhere in the suburbs. This is not a paid/volunteer issue. This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response.

Some are probably already cracking their knuckles and gearing up for a keyboard battle but before you do, take a deep breath and let me finish my thought.

Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" (and I hate that distinction but more on that later) firefighters (4 E, 1 S, 3 L, 1 BC, S/C 1/1, plus 10-75 response). How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes?

Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that?

SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that?

I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later?

Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays.

What would you do as the IC?

What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF?

Do you have training for that scenario?

Do you have a pre-plan for that?

Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)?

In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo.

All this was coordinated by the County communications center (FDNY Bronx Radio). It wasn't the local police desk trying to coordinate all the requests from the field while answering the switchboard and trying to dispatch seventy different resources. It wasn't a dozen different PSAP's all doing it their own way. It was part of a plan! (Some will undoubtedly argue that it isn't a good plan or it is overkill or whatever but my point is there is a plan and a standardized response!).

The chief officers that handled this fire probably have at least 12-15 years of experience as an officer backed up and supported by alot of training, drills and exercises. (FDNY has one of the elaborate exercise programs I've ever seen).

What do we have?

What do we require of our officers?

How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident?

How experienced are they?

Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted?

The FDNY response and resources is without question unique but how would we handle this kind of response? In a simple 3 story frame house fire that spread to similar exposures. This wasn't a high-rise. This wasn't a big factory. This was a row of buildings like almost any town in the Hudson Valley, Fairfield, or north Jersey.

It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!!

It's 2012. The time for 90+ different dispatch points in Westchester is long gone We need a single coordinated 911 center for police fire and EMS in every county with properly trained professional 911 call-takers and dispatchers doing their jobs.

Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

[FFBlaser 24]

I 100% agree with you, here we have one dispatch center that coordinates the response of, a city fd, a county fd, 15 Volunteer districts, sheriff's office, city pd, city public safety, animal control. there are still flaws with one dispatch center, but when we have a structure fire or large brush fire they coordinate the response of several volunteer districts, paid staff from the county, and mutual aide from the city and surrounding municipalities.

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response.

Great Topic, Thanks Dinosaur.

You have hit the nailon the head. Emergency Response in Westchester has cultivated a recipe for failure.

Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" firefighters. How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes?

Only 1 can do it. Many can not even get 4 "interior" on the road in the first three minutes?

Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that?

SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that?

We can not imagine that, infact we do not want to imagine that. How many FF's in Westchester (and other counties around NYC) wear FDNY T-shirts, go to presentations from FDNY members, listen to FDNY on the scanner, but when it comes down to it we want out own little fiffedom and will fight to prevent having any real ability to handle major incidents.

I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later?

There will always be major calls that will require that level of manpower. It just does not happen often. We generally do not believe in proper staging.....Whats the chance something unexpected can occur at a fire or other major emergency?

Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays.

Based on the response capabilities, we can barely put a 4 man FAST team onscene, In this case you may need multiple teams. When this happens, we will have multiple LODD's and another study...but this time it will be from NIOSH showing the country what went wrong.

What would you do as the IC?

What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF?

Do you have training for that scenario?

Do you have a pre-plan for that?

Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)?

All of this needs to be resolved now, I fear that most will wait until the collapse.

In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo.

We will get at least that to the LODD Funeral, but not the fire.

What do we have?

What do we require of our officers?

How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident?

How experienced are they?

Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted?

Not enough trained members per unit or per response.

Minimal training, if any

More training

the range is from none, to very qualified

If there are SOP's, there has to also be dispatch authority and that does not exist.

It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!!

Good luck. Thanks for pointing this out.

Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

Well said.

[E58RET 24]

Talk about hitting the proverbial nail on the head,well written andobviosly wellthoughtout and researched post! Barry your analysis from a Westchester point of view is right on the money

[Bnechis 3,961]

Within hours of this thread:

Location: Westchester County Aiport - Main Terminal (Rye Brook)

Description Of Incident: Suspicious package

Frequency: 46.26 (Dispatch), Fire 15, Fire 19, Fire 16, EMS 15, EMS 16, 155.310 (WCPD), 46.06 (PCFD), 155.895 (HPD/EMS), 155.625 (PCPD/EMS), ATC

11 different frequencies to respond and standby for what became a non-major incident.

How many would be needed if we had a major emergency?

[JBJ1202 27]

Within hours of this thread:

Location: Westchester County Aiport - Main Terminal (Rye Brook)

Description Of Incident: Suspicious package

Frequency: 46.26 (Dispatch), Fire 15, Fire 19, Fire 16, EMS 15, EMS 16, 155.310 (WCPD), 46.06 (PCFD), 155.895 (HPD/EMS), 155.625 (PCPD/EMS), ATC

11 different frequencies to respond and standby for what became a non-major incident.

How many would be needed if we had a major emergency?

Barry,

Most of the frequencies you've listed are not part of our airport response. A single channel (A- OPS 5) is used by all fire and EMS units responding. County PD does operate on their own channel and are not in direct communication with units on OPS 5. An officer from WCPD will report to the command trailer as soon as one is available.

Fire 15, Fire 16, Fire 19, EMS 15, EMS 16, 46.06, 155.895, and 155.625 are used by the home agencies during their normal incident responses. I feel the standby today actually shows the opposite of what you are suggesting.

If this incident did escalate to an actual major emergency the number of channels utilized would expand based on need to the predetermined channels in the airport response plan.

JBJ

Edited April 16, 2012 by JBJ1202

[Bnechis 3,961]

Most of the frequencies you've listed are not part of our airport response. A single channel (A- OPS 5) is used by all fire and EMS units responding. County PD does operate on their own channel and are not in direct communication with units on OPS 5. An officer from WCPD will report to the command trailer as soon as one is available.

Fire 15, Fire 16, Fire 19, EMS 15, EMS 16, 46.06, 155.895, and 155.625 are used by the home agencies during their normal incident responses. I feel the standby today actually shows the opposite of what you are suggesting.

If this incident did escalate to an actual major emergency the number of channels utilized would expand based on need to the predetermined channels in the airport response plan.

Thanks for the clarification, my point was their were 11 frequencies listed to dispatch 10 agencies. OPS 5 was not even on the list.

NYC to the same type of incident manages it with far fewer frequencies. Are we that busy that we can not work on fewer?

T

[FFLieu 70]

Great Topic, Thanks Dinosaur.

You have hit the nailon the head. Emergency Response in Westchester has cultivated a recipe for failure.

Only 1 can do it. Many can not even get 4 "interior" on the road in the first three minutes?

We can not imagine that, infact we do not want to imagine that. How many FF's in Westchester (and other counties around NYC) wear FDNY T-shirts, go to presentations from FDNY members, listen to FDNY on the scanner, but when it comes down to it we want out own little fiffedom and will fight to prevent having any real ability to handle major incidents.

There will always be major calls that will require that level of manpower. It just does not happen often. We generally do not believe in proper staging.....Whats the chance something unexpected can occur at a fire or other major emergency?

Based on the response capabilities, we can barely put a 4 man FAST team onscene, In this case you may need multiple teams. When this happens, we will have multiple LODD's and another study...but this time it will be from NIOSH showing the country what went wrong.

All of this needs to be resolved now, I fear that most will wait until the collapse.

We will get at least that to the LODD Funeral, but not the fire.

Not enough trained members per unit or per response.

Minimal training, if any

More training

the range is from none, to very qualified

If there are SOP's, there has to also be dispatch authority and that does not exist.

Good luck. Thanks for pointing this out.

Well said.

What department(s) are you referring to? Seems pretty specific for some "generalized" terminology in your responses. They wouldn't happen to be the ones north of 287, would they?

Edited April 16, 2012 by FFLieu

[wraftery 1,275]

We know how to correct these problems in Westchester. We simply choose not to.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What department(s) are you referring to? Seems pretty specific for some "generalized" terminology in your responses. They wouldn't happen to be the ones north of 287, would they?

North of and south of.

Since I said only 1 dept. currently is capable that means 57 other departments (in Westchester) are not. And I know of plenty of other counties & 2 other states in the region that are plaged by this.

If you think I am picking on your dept. (not that I know which one it is) can you go back to the 1st post and honestly say you can do what he is asking? That would be a good project for every department.

Your tone sounds like you think I am picking on one department or a group of departments.

This includes career, combo and volunteers. Includes; City depts. Village Depts and Fire Districts.

[Dinosaur 844]

What department(s) are you referring to? Seems pretty specific for some "generalized" terminology in your responses. They wouldn't happen to be the ones north of 287, would they?

What's the difference? Did I strike a nerve or are you just that paranoid?

For the record, I was and am referring to all the departments that share these common problems! North and South of 287 in and outside of NY. There's only one department in Westchester that comes close to having the resources or organization of the FDNY.

Get over it. There are lots of issues in all our departments. Turning a blind eye to them won't make them go away.

[fdny41 11]

I think that the response for a working fire or 10-75 in westchester should consist of:

4 Engines

2 Trucks

1 Fast Truck - With chief from department of Fast Truck.

3 or 2 chiefs depending on availability.

I think Westchester County needs a more uniform response structure.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think that the response for a working fire or 10-75 in westchester should consist of:

4 Engines

2 Trucks

1 Fast Truck - With chief from department of Fast Truck.

3 or 2 chiefs depending on availability.

I think Westchester County needs a more uniform response structure.

Agreed, since fire trucks do not put out fire.... are those 1 man engines, 2, 3 ,4 ,5? Currently in Westchester most are running with 1, 2 or 3 including the officer.

[FFLieu 70]

What's the difference? Did I strike a nerve or are you just that paranoid?

For the record, I was and am referring to all the departments that share these common problems! North and South of 287 in and outside of NY. There's only one department in Westchester that comes close to having the resources or organization of the FDNY.

Get over it. There are lots of issues in all our departments. Turning a blind eye to them won't make them go away.

I wasn't referring to your post. I sent you a PM.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

I hate using FDNY as a comparison on any fire service topic. NOBODY has the resources FDNY has nor the manpower on each rig. I think they may be the onlypaid Dept. in the country running a 6 man ladder company. If there are others you can count them on 1 hand probably. Even NY state when they do their end of year data review on the fire service do not include FDNY with the other data. FDNY has their own category.

That said maybe using a more realistic agency to compare to the rest of Westchester or the country for that matter would be better. Yonkers, White Plains or New Rochelle are the big 3 Departments I would guess to compare everyone else to.

BUT your point is well taken. Each Chief needs to access their own district and what they can provide. Im not from Westchester and only know the goings on from a few friends and reading this site from time to time. Do many Depts have a automatic mutual aid procedure in place for alarms? Would a system like this, county wide help bring the numbers up to what is needed?

[JetPhoto 626]

I know this discussion is primarily for Westchester, but for those that are not aware in the last 2 weeks there have been major alarms nearby. 2 weeks ago Ulster county had a massive wind driven brush fire that destroyed about 40 structures bringing in manpower from that county, Sullivan, Orange & Dutchess to get the fire under control. This past weekend in Lock Sheldrake (Sullivan) they had a former hotel now condo's go up bringing in manpower & equipment from Sullivan, Orange, Ulster and possibly more about 40 departments I believe.

It would really be interesting to know from those departments how the response, staging and the overall incident was handled. I must also note that in the county's were the fires occurred, they basically have 1 PSAP / Dispatch center (and I believe a back up.) Now you have very small dispatch centers coordinating with multiple county's worth of responding and covering equipment and still getting the other calls in the respective county's out.

As mentioned, there is no need to have multiple PSAP's. A well organized dispatch center with a limited number of frequencies that are all interpretable can do the job and give immediate answers to the responders instead of playing telephone with multiple departments and possibly start passing on bad information on is the best way. This also saves the taxpayers money by avoiding duplication of service.

Just my opinion.

[conman 40]

I went to the fire in Ellenville that occurred 2 weeks ago. My observation has nothing to do with the command structure that the Ellenville fire department has, but in my opinion it was a cluster. We here in Ulster have only 8 county frequencies with the larger departments having their own personal high-band frequencies. I responded with my departments tanker, a water ops channel was given to all inbound tankers. Upon entering the village, I attempted to call water ops command multiple times and got no response so it was find the nearest drop tank and dump. We were never given the location of the fill site. Had to ask a member from the Woodburne department if they knew the location, luckily they did. No staging area was given until mutual aid was requested from Orange and Dutchess. We also responded with manpower and our utility, those members found an area out of the way of the tankers and parked. Like I said, I am not bashing our fire coordinators office, the chief officers from Ellenville or the other departments who initially established command on the scene or our dispatch center. They all did a remarkable job, but our county is far behind the 8-ball. We don't have the ability to talk to other departments on our frequencies, which can put a huge hamper on firefighting abilities.

[conman 40]

And by other departments I mean from other counties