Wildland/Brush Firefighting PPE

[firedude 985]

After watching footage off the Long Island Brush Fires (Link Bellow), and seeing fire fought with structure PPE, I got few questions... Do any local FD's have wildland PPE? If not, what do you use? Because these fires aren't common, it is my opinion that our area lacks the equipment and training to handle larger scale wildland fires, such as the one in Long Island. Am I right?

Long Island Brush Fires: http://www.nbcnewyor...-146673695.html

Cool and Informative Video on Wildland Firefighting:

[x129K 1,393]

I have always just worn my bunkers, gloves, and my lid...but seeing these other fires lately, I think if we get one...I might throw my hood and coat on...just in case..

It's nasty out there..and these winds make it so much worse.

[Ladder44 73]

All we required is work boots, long pants (jeans), long sleeves, gloves and a helmet and i belive this is per NFPA as well. Bunker gear is just to bulky to be in the woods all day and fatigue will kick in much more quickly

[x635 4,066]

Using regular structural turnout gear reduces the firefighter's mobilty in tough terrain. It also increase fatigue, especially in high tempatures.

If your department has the need for a brush truck, then you should have the need for brush turnout gear.

[x129K 1,393]

We have the need....but not the cash....And I prefer not to wear "jeans and a shirt" and I don't own "work boots"...so hitches and a lid it is for me.

[Bnechis 3,961]

All we required is work boots, long pants (jeans), long sleeves, gloves and a helmet and i belive this is per NFPA as well.

So your work boots, jeans, long sleeves and gloves have all been tested for flame resistance and labelled to meet the NFPA standard for wildland firefighting protective clothing (NFPA 1977) ?

All NFPA standards are minimum standards and they require 3rd party independent testing and labeling to prove they meet the standard.

If your department has the need for a brush truck, then you should have the need for brush turnout gear.

Great Point.

[everybodygoes 331]

Obviously no one who has replied has ever been a mile or two in the woods with an indian tank and a rake. Jeans and a pair of boots with ankle support is a perfect combo. What good is the wildland gear we carry? All it is made of is a nomex material, which will do what? prevent ash from burning through it? Id rather walk up 20 flights for a project fire than walk a mile on flat ground in bunker gear. Try it, but don't say I didn't warn you when your feet swell up.

[Dinosaur 844]

All we required is work boots, long pants (jeans), long sleeves, gloves and a helmet and i belive this is per NFPA as well. Bunker gear is just to bulky to be in the woods all day and fatigue will kick in much more quickly

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.

Using regular structural turnout gear reduces the firefighter's mobilty in tough terrain. It also increase fatigue, especially in high tempatures.

If your department has the need for a brush truck, then you should have the need for brush turnout gear.

You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job.

Obviously no one who has replied has ever been a mile or two in the woods with an indian tank and a rake. Jeans and a pair of boots with ankle support is a perfect combo. What good is the wildland gear we carry? All it is made of is a nomex material, which will do what? prevent ash from burning through it? Id rather walk up 20 flights for a project fire than walk a mile on flat ground in bunker gear. Try it, but don't say I didn't warn you when your feet swell up.

All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires.

Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job.

http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf

http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html

http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf

Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training?

Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

[Ladder44 73]

Ok so its a dept policy not some nfpa standard, my appologies read it wrong, but how can you walk through the woods, moving hose and raking for 6-8-10 hours and maintain body temperature, there are more injuries from hyperthermia and trying to stay cool then actual fire exposure.

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change.

Neither is a turnout coat, pants and a hood...

If things really turn on you, and you are engulfed by flames, you will get burned. Even with wildland or structural turnout gear. No one wears an scba in the woods.

I am not advocating the use of jeans and a tee for fighting brush/wildland fires, but structural turnout gear isn't meant for that type of work (like you indicated). Just as we (most of us..) don't wear proximity gear for structural fires.

For decades nomex wildland gear has worked just fine for the USDA FS, CAL FIRE, BLM, and agencies that fight enormous Forrest fires. You must be familiar with the job and be aware of changing conditions.

[RescueKujo 130]

Some good points about wildland PPE have been made. Here's some thoughts of this from the left coast, where fighting this kind of firefighting is a common thing.

the limitations of structural PPE have been mentioned and those posters are correct. Limited mobility, bulkiness and heat retention lead to heat exhaustion/stroke.

The US Forest Service personnel wear a specific nomex pant. I'm not sure of serial numbers or anything, but that is what they do. Everyone else wears the commerially made nomex brush coat/pant set, wildland gloves (structure gloves being too bulky) wildland helmet with shield that attaches inside the helmet and comes around to velcro together in front of the face. Goggles for eye protection and heavy duty work boots without steel toes or shanks (when walking on hot coals do you want that heat transfer through the sole to a protection shank in that said sole??).

Everyone should have web gear, with a canteen or 2 and a shelter pack. Here in Cali, no one can be on the fire line without a shelter.

In other posts, or even signatures, I see the phrase "Everyone Goes Home"...if that is the case, why won't you do what is needed all of the time??

[firemoose827 324]

We fight our share of brush fires around me. My district is mostly wooded areas, farmlands and rural areas where people just LOVE to burn their yard debris every spring...

We had a good sized fire a couple of weeks ago across from my apartment complex that took 2 departments with over 50 firefighters to control, 6 ATV's, 1 4-wheel drive farm tractor with bucket and the forest ranger. Some of the crews wore their bunker pants and boots, helmets and gloves and they got fatigued early on. Others wore the brush gear we have on our brush truck and they were able to go longer with less breaks.

We carry 6 sets of brush gear on our brush truck; pants, shirts, helmet with goggles, and light leather work gloves. We use the lighter soft indian packs instead of the larger, bulkier and heavier aluminum indian packs and that seems to help as well.

NFPA may say that jeans and long sleeves are acceptable, but we do not allow it for obvious reasons. We received a wildland grant last year and got a few more sets of brush gear and some new hand tools like pulaski tools, union rakes and 2 new "Swatters" that seem to work well.

[Danger 160]

We definitely do not have the training to fight large brush fires. County, battalion, or multi department agreements should purchase a cache of wildland rated coveralls in generic sizes as well as rakes, collapsible indian tanks, etc to be deployed from box trucks when needed. I'd say the $900,000 from the latest tower ladder quint should get us a good start.

[va360 7]

Right on RescueKujo. My Dept I work for makes us have a red card and fire shelter training ever year.Yes I have walked a mile or two in the woods with a rake and with wildland gear.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

We definitely do not have the training to fight large brush fires. County, battalion, or multi department agreements should purchase a cache of wildland rated coveralls in generic sizes as well as rakes, collapsible indian tanks, etc to be deployed from box trucks when needed. I'd say the $900,000 from the latest tower ladder quint should get us a good start.

Smart idea. We have county/regional HAZMAT, Tech Rescue, Fire Investigation and Field Communications Units, why not a set of equipment for these types of incidents???

[Dinosaur 844]

Neither is a turnout coat, pants and a hood...

If things really turn on you, and you are engulfed by flames, you will get burned. Even with wildland or structural turnout gear. No one wears an scba in the woods.

I am not advocating the use of jeans and a tee for fighting brush/wildland fires, but structural turnout gear isn't meant for that type of work (like you indicated). Just as we (most of us..) don't wear proximity gear for structural fires.

For decades nomex wildland gear has worked just fine for the USDA FS, CAL FIRE, BLM, and agencies that fight enormous Forrest fires. You must be familiar with the job and be aware of changing conditions.

If things turn on you and you're caught in a bad spot, you need more than wishful thinking and the way most of our local departments operate, that's all they've got.

I think we're on the same page that nomex is the way to go and you need to have the right training and other equipment also. How many departments have and train on emergency shelters for the wildland firefighter? They're not SCBA and they're not a cure-all but they beat the hell out of nothing.

Departments invest tons of money on apparatus (like brush trucks) and bailout kits, etc. but how many actually train and equip their FF for fighting fires like we're seeing this week? Or last month at Camp Smith. In that terrain, if the fire got away from them or caught a bad wind, they'd have been in a world of trouble.

We definitely do not have the training to fight large brush fires. County, battalion, or multi department agreements should purchase a cache of wildland rated coveralls in generic sizes as well as rakes, collapsible indian tanks, etc to be deployed from box trucks when needed. I'd say the $900,000 from the latest tower ladder quint should get us a good start.

Good idea - a big cache of regional equipment and a whole lot of local T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G!!!!

[Dinosaur 844]

Smart idea. We have county/regional HAZMAT, Tech Rescue, Fire Investigation and Field Communications Units, why not a set of equipment for these types of incidents???

Cause Haz-Mat, Tech Rescue, and Field Comm all get big fancy trucks!

What's so cool about nomex pants and shirts and a bundle of rakes?

[FFBlaser 24]

Being from New Mexico, and A career wild land firefighter as of yesterday... this makes me laugh. Hard.

Not in a bad way... I just think you guys need to look to outside of the box for solutions. There are grants out there for small departments to get PPE. The same as would be for you to a new truck.

Edited April 10, 2012 by FFBlaser

[Capejake72 8]

as a career wildland firefighter, I can remember when I started for a small New England department, jeans, work boots and a long sleeve shirt was all we had for brush gear (and a damn sight better than bunker gear).. as FFBlaser said, check with your state Forestry Agency (DEP< DNR, etc) they have volunteer fire assistance grants where they will supply or assist your department with PPE, tools, pumps, hoses, booster tanks and often surplus government or military vehicles to be converted into firefighting vehicles, as well as training and Red Card certification, so you can safely and effectively fight wildland fires..

Be Safe

[firedude 985]

For the FDNY members on here, does the FDNY supply brush gear or do you guys use structure PPE? I know there are several brush units scattered around but what do they carry and how are they staffed?

(*)

[helicopper 1,050]

Being from New Mexico, and A career wild land firefighter as of yesterday... this makes me laugh. Hard. Not in a bad way... I just think you guys need to look to outside of the box for solutions. There are grants out there for small departments to get PPE. The same as would be for you to a new truck.

Why?

[meat441 43]

How many hours of training for structural firefighting? How many hours for HazMat? How many hours for Technical Rescue. The list goes on.

But how much training is taken for Wildland Firefighting by local structural departments?

New York State has the the same complications of Wildland Fires as Northern New Jersey. (THE TERRAIN) Mountainous terrain, heavy wooded area's, Leaf Litter, rocks and boulder's, differant vegetation type's, Farm field's and field grasses to mention a few.

Most fires are small and near reach of booster lines from apparatus and quickly extinguished. But what the Wildland Fires deep in the the woods and on top of ridges?

Case in point. I led a hand crew of 3 Wildland Firefighter's and 2 structural Firefighter's into a mountaineous area in North Jersey 2 years ago to begin cutting a control line. The local fire chief wanted 2 of his firefighter's to assist us because he felt our shortage of manpower prevented us from controlling the fire? All member's were briefed prior to heading out. 15 minutes into cutting the line the 2 local firefighter's were missing. Our operation halted and the IC notified. We back tracked the line and found the firefighter's sitting on a rock ledge in the BLACK. 1 was having an Asthma Attack and the other sprained his leg. After treating and removing them we continued to finish the control line in 2 hours.

The local chief insisted on his men assisting us which now has led to our Section Warden communicating with chief's about the danger's of structual turnout gear being used for Wildland Fires and most of all the training.

Structual is very different from Wildland.

[FFBlaser 24]

Why?

It makes me laugh because you all preach on other boards about the perfect PPE and all that Jazz. It's the same. Wildfire is an animal. And it's less predictable then making an attack on structure. In Santa Fe County, it is required that to be an interior certified firefighter you also must have the basic wild land certs. Use your brains guys. You will see wildfire.