Dearborn, MI Near Roof Collapse Video

[JJB531 652]

Very close call!

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/roof-collapses-under-dearborn-firefighters

[x129K 1,393]

Amazing video! Close doesnt describe it....a blessing perhaps!

[JJB531 652]

Yeah pucker factor was definitely in full effect!

[KRF178 49]

Looks like the only thing that bought them time was the roofing material, looks like it was the rubber EPDM. I knew it was durable, but wow!

[helicopper 1,050]

Also a good thing they were close to the edge of the roof. If they were out in the middle... who knows.

[sfrd18 360]

Wow! That was too close!

[Tanker 10eng 140]

Yes, EPDM is strong, but it looks like the structure dropped, and did not collapse 100%... they were really lucky...

[38ff 250]

Lucky guys.. It looks like the last guy looked back perhaps to get the saw and hook, but decided he had a good enough excuse not too. I dont blame him a bit.

[gamewell45 258]

Glad the Brothers were able to escape. Their Guardian Angels were definitely looking out for them!

[PFDRes47cue 653]

Wow. Luck was on their side for sure.

[fire55 3]

Interview video with two of the firefighters on the roof...

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/wayne_county/firefighters-talk-about-close-call-at-a-dearborn-fire-when-the-roof-they-were-on-started-to-collapse

[16fire5 693]

My best guess is parallel cord wood trusses. Most other things wouldn't collapse together like they do. Even an inverted roof dosen't drop like that over a large area. While it looks like it dropped and didn't fully collapse it propably has no weight bearing capabiliites left.

The inside truck crew should be popping up a ceiling tile on entry to see the cockloft to make sure they are not advancing deep into the building with fire over them. This exam can also give you an idea what the roof construction is. This must be communicated to command and the brothers on the roof.

[wraftery 1,275]

My best guess is parallel cord wood trusses. Most other things wouldn't collapse together like they do. Even an inverted roof dosen't drop like that over a large area. While it looks like it dropped and didn't fully collapse it propably has no weight bearing capabiliites left.

The inside truck crew should be popping up a ceiling tile on entry to see the cockloft to make sure they are not advancing deep into the building with fire over them. This exam can also give you an idea what the roof construction is. This must be communicated to command and the brothers on the roof.

Very doubtful it had any kind of trusses. They were not in use at the time of this building's construction (1920-1950?).

Clues are the "step" on the parapet wall indicating a "flat roof" which has a slight pitch to one side, usually the rear to allow for runoff. Also note the tiles on top of the masonry walls, another clue to date of construction. The only trusses in any common use at that time were bowstrings, used a lot during WWII for gyms or other wide span buildings.

Popping a ceiling tile, however is a good move. I would say that iof there are ceiling tiles, it is clue to possible renovations which may have weakened the structure such as cutting thru a rafter to run AC ducts. If you were to pop a ceiling tile in this building, it is very possible you would find that the next ceiling above the dropped ceiling is a 12"x12" interlocking tile ceiling on a wood frame. Above that, a tin ceiling.

I would be remiss if I didn't add a pitch for doing Company Inspections. Then we wouldn't have to guess what the building contains. It's nice to know this info before the fire. If you get that info into your CIDS, then everyone will know before the fire.

[wraftery 1,275]

My best guess is parallel cord wood trusses. Most other things wouldn't collapse together like they do. Even an inverted roof dosen't drop like that over a large area. While it looks like it dropped and didn't fully collapse it propably has no weight bearing capabiliites left.

The inside truck crew should be popping up a ceiling tile on entry to see the cockloft to make sure they are not advancing deep into the building with fire over them. This exam can also give you an idea what the roof construction is. This must be communicated to command and the brothers on the roof.

It is rather unusual in that there was very little evidence of fire below them. Smoke was white and not pushing out at all, and no visible fire below them before, during, or after the collapse. I looked at the video several times (which you can't do during the actual incident) and it is possible that the roof was sagging in the very first frame of the video. This building appears to have a slightly pitched roof th alow water to run off to one side of the building, usually the rear. In order to get this pitch, the roof support members are "built up" creating a void for fire travel. It is more or less a shallow cockloft. The roof appears to be covered by a membrane very recently, judging by the shiny vent stacks near the vent hole. If I had to guess, I would guess that the roof had been leaking for perhaps a very long time and the water coming through the old roof could have rotted the roof supports. It is quite possible that this was the cause of the collapse and not the fire. Just my two cents

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is rather unusual in that there was very little evidence of fire below them. Smoke was white and not pushing out at all, and no visible fire below them before, during, or after the collapse.

I generally would have agreed. I have now seen 5 different videos and one of them shows very heavy black smoke pushing from exposure 1, before, during and after....while the roof conditions did not reflect it. Based on this I suspect this was either a rain roof that collapsed or the main roof failed, but the ceiling or more likely multiple ceilings did not and the fire stayed in that space below the main roof or ceilings.

[Bnechis 3,961]

My best guess is parallel cord wood trusses. Most other things wouldn't collapse together like they do. Even an inverted roof dosen't drop like that over a large area. While it looks like it dropped and didn't fully collapse it propably has no weight bearing capabiliites left.

The occupancy (dry cleaner) was established in the building in 1932, so its unlikely that its a truss, since they did not commonly use trusses (other than bow string, which this is clearly not) at that time.

[wraftery 1,275]

I generally would have agreed. I have now seen 5 different videos and one of them shows very heavy black smoke pushing from exposure 1, before, during and after....while the roof conditions did not reflect it. Based on this I suspect this was either a rain roof that collapsed or the main roof failed, but the ceiling or more likely multiple ceilings did not and the fire stayed in that space below the main roof or ceilings.

After seeing other videos, I would agree with bnechis in that there was a fairly large fire in the building. It was obvious that the heavy fire conditions required vertical ventilation. I am confused, however, about how much fire there was at the point of roof collapse. There were quite a few places (stacks, ventialting fans, chimneys,etc) that did not show dark smoke and the smoke was not emanating under any real pressure like I would have expected.

I will not pick apart a picture or video for minute details and say they were correct or incorrect in their tactics. What I will say is that there may... may... have been factors other than fire contact that caused roof member failure. With the amount of fire that is required to initiate collapse of the roof, I did not see any evidence of sufficient fire at the vent hole. I would have expected to see at least some red down in the vent hole if the fire alone was the cause of collapse. Not an aweful lot of smoke and fire showed after collapse. Did something else contribute to the collapse? That's the question in my mind.

AS far as popping a ceiling tile, my only point was that you can expect to see evidence of many changes made to the building over the years with a building of this age. The time to do such investigation is during Company Inspections and to put it in your database. Dearborn, MI may have done this. I dont know. But I DO know that not enough Depts do such inspection or have such records on-scene.

Thanks, Barry for pointing me towards the other videos. They were easy to find. But how in the name of Ray Rummery did you know the building was built in 1932? Is Dearborn's database in your CIDS too?

Edited April 1, 2012 by wraftery

[Bnechis 3,961]

The time to do such investigation is during Company Inspections and to put it in your database. But I DO know that not enough Depts do such inspection or have such records on-scene.

Excellent point. Also how many depts. work with the local building dept. to find the records of these buildings? Most do not know that the 2nd largest points in ISO Fire Department review (after personnel) is annual inspections?

But how in the name of Ray Rummery did you know the building was built in 1932? Is Dearborn's database in your CIDS too?

Chief, you are dating yourself with that line. No its not in our data base, but one of the video's interviewed the owner of the dry cleanning and he said they were there since 1932.