Apparatus specs

[pauloghia 5]

With apparatus having grown to super sized proportions with tons of options, when was it that the rigs began to be spec'd out very specifically and not just built to one blueprint? Also, is it possible to order a highly spec'd pumper on a modern commercial cab, like a Freightliner or Kenworth? The only ones I've ever seen have been generic off the shelf rigs.

[Tanker 10eng 140]

how much money do you have ? ...

[firegui 24]

You can order anything you want. Most manufacturers will build on any chassis. You see mostly cookie cutter apparatus on commercial chassis because they are built to keep the price down. But you can spec anything you like.

[pauloghia 5]

One of the reasons I'm so curious about the specialized specs on commercial cab rigs is that I've grown so tired of departments going with what the manufacturers and dealers sell them without considering things such as proper tool placement, pump/tank capacity hose length, seating and other important factors. The other reason was my volunteer department I was on ordered a rescue-pumper on a commercial cab, when we chose to begin operating as a squad company. The requirement was pretty simple and straightforward, seating for at least 4 firefighters, mid-ship 1,250 gpm pump, 1000 gallon tank, hydraulic ladder rack or interior ladder storage with rescue body. The commercial cab was required, because the roads in our first due area were too narrow and tight for a wider custom cab. American LaFrance met our requirement perfectly in 2005. Imagine the same rig as Richmond Engine Co. but with a four door Freightliner cab and mid-ship panel. It ended up being an off the shelf model, but it was the first time I saw one that was more specialized than what I had seen in the past. My department at least knew what we needed, made a simple spec and were able to match it up to what was available. It wasn't the flashiest rig in my county, but all of the other departments agreed that it got the job done the best.

[antiquefirelt 994]

The commercial cab was required, because the roads in our first due area were too narrow and tight for a wider custom cab.

Somehow I doubt this is really the case. How much slimmer at the widest point is a Freightliner or IH or any other commercial than the narrow model customs? If anything we're talking inches, not feet, which is quickly a huge disparity in turning radius lost. Our two custom cab engines (one HME SFO, one Spartan Gladiator)will turn circles around our shorter length two door commercial chassis engine. Not even close they turn so much tighter. And if you're adding in for a four door commercial chassis you're going to need 40 acres in comparison. When it comes down to it, the only reason to go commercial is cost. Given you're concern about road width, I'd say you may be more likely to end up off the road, thus I'd want to ensure my crew the best possible outcome by putting them in a purpose built custom cab as they tend to hold up far better.

[JetPhoto 626]

Manufacturers will build you anything you want (as long as it's possible) just make sure you open your wallet WIDE because it will cost you.

Commercialal cabs are more "cookie cutter" than customs. You have limited spacavailablele and little chance of changing the seating configuration. You also have minimal crash protection with zero rollover protection.

Custom cabs offer smaller turning radius, more backseat cab configurations, more room to store some of your small everyday tools TIG, meters, hand lighetc ect. Greater crash protection with good rollover protection availabilitylity of airbags in covering all windows. You also can have more head room.

Both have pros and cons, but Custom is the way to go.

Just My opinion.

[pauloghia 5]

These roads are in rural north eastern Kentucky, so width plays a major difference once you get off the beaten path. Our widest road was US 60E which has regular sized lanes without shoulders, but the rest of our coverage consisted of narrow, winding mountain roads with a cliff on one side and a mountain on the other, or a mountian on one side and a creek on the other. Even US 60 gets goofy in some places, winding around a hillside. Length wasn't a problem, since most of the people who would end up driving the engine had experience as regular truck drivers, or truck drivers pulling mobile homes onto mountain tops that would absolutely blow your mind. To shorten the length, we didn't opt for an extended bumper. The last thing we wanted was to run lights and siren at any time of the day or night on one of these back roads and send either us, or an oncoming vehicle into or down the mountain.

The LaFrance dealer out of Nitro, WV brought us both an Eagle and a Metropolitan cab to look at and evaluate and both were determined to be too wide. It was determined quickly when we met oncoming traffic while test driving on these roads and both of us would've had to slow down considerably in order pass safely and and avoid hitting each other. The two city departments we run aid to which account for the majority of our fire load have customs that aren't allowed to leave their city limits for these purposes. One runs a Pierce Endorcer and the other runs a Spartan/Smeal. For county runs since fire coverage here is drastically different than in the northeast, they had to do the same thing as us. One city (Olive Hill, KY) runs a Pierce Contender on a Kenworth chassis and the other (Morehead, KY) runs an interestingly configured E-One on a Freightliner chassis. Furthermore, we had placed several older and smaller vehicles OOS for maintenance costs, operations or other reasons, hence the decision to integrate all capabilities into one unit. I had done it several times, running a first responder call located in a hollow, MVC on the county line or a fire in the new engine, then getting a call to provide aid to either the rural areas that belong to the city on our left (Olive Hill), the city on our right (Morehead), or even to respond further in our own county for another department. 

The only custom cabs in my county that were well suited were an older Mack CF engine for another neighboring department, then a Mack CF with 55 foot snorkel and a Pierce Arrow operated by another county department. Olive Hill also kept a Mack CF-aerialscope. In the case of the Mack engine, it's much smaller than modern custom cabs and ran second due anyway. With the Mack snorkel and the Pierce running first due, that department had the good fortune of being located in a flatter area with mostly regular sized roads, however they also ran into the same problem with narrow hollows and kept an International chassis for that purpose.

All fire districts are different. The type of equipment and how they're spec'd properly, even if they're based on a cookie cutter model plays into whether or not that apparatus will be effective on the fireground. Obviously, that ALF would be a logistical and operational nightmare in Manhattan, or probably also Westchester County. We took the pros and cons, figured out what was required, what could be effectively provided, what had to be sacrificed, then fielded the rig that best suited the needs for our community. Unlike departments in the northeast, we also took into account the price and how scarce money is here. Our biggest concern regarding length and width was how long can we keep the engine in service as a front line piece and how wide can we space it's life, since the one that it replaced was a 1962 Peter Pirsch.

[JetPhoto 626]

pauloghia - do you guys have a website we can check out?

[pauloghia 5]

pauloghia - do you guys have a website we can check out?

There isn't a website, however if you're on Facebook, search "Hayes Crossing Haldeman" until you find them. I left the department in 2007 when I moved, but have kept up with then and volunteer somewhere else in Kentucky now. If you're interested in the rig, pm me your email and I can send a couple to you.

[antiquefirelt 994]

These roads are in rural north eastern Kentucky, so width plays a major difference once you get off the beaten path.

I'm not disagreeing width was an issue, my point is that commercial cabs literally don't save enough width for that to be an actual factor. Most bodies are at the widest width and the widest point is still the mirrors. All of which come down to a few inches, yet you make the distinction these few inches change slowing for oncoming vehicles or not? Again, maybe you guys need to provide a safer cab for the inevitable?

For example:

Rosenbauer on FL M2 = 98" wide My link

Rosenbauer on International = 101" wideMy link

Rosenbauer on Spartan Custom = 100" wide My link

HME custom chassis engine = 96" cab, 100" body 123" wide mirror to mirror. My link

HME on International Commerical = 100" body, 102" mirror to mirror. My link

[pauloghia 5]

I'm not disagreeing width was an issue, my point is that commercial cabs literally don't save enough width for that to be an actual factor. Most bodies are at the widest width and the widest point is still the mirrors. All of which come down to a few inches, yet you make the distinction these few inches change slowing for oncoming vehicles or not? Again, maybe you guys need to provide a safer cab for the inevitable?

For example:

Rosenbauer on FL M2 = 98" wide My link

Rosenbauer on International = 101" wideMy link

Rosenbauer on Spartan Custom = 100" wide My link

HME custom chassis engine = 96" cab, 100" body 123" wide mirror to mirror. My link

HME on International Commerical = 100" body, 102" mirror to mirror. My link

Width is an issue when the largest vehicle we would encounter on one of these narrow roads is a pickup truck, thus negating the issue with mirrors. US 60 is a different story as it has heavy truck traffic, but the lane width wasn't an issue on that road in the first place, only in the areas where the road was as wide as a lane and a half. Even if a pickup were tall enough in one of these hollows, I'd rather trade mirrors than drive the engine into the rock in an attempt to avoid a head-on collision. Remember with these roads in mountain hollows, there's only one way in and one way out, so extrication is another nightmare when there's a collision on them.

No offense to everyone, but preference of customs isn't what I've been curious about. I've previously ran on a Pierce Arrow, Mack CF and Seagrave Commander; also a Ford C if you want to count it and I prefer these type. Where I'm at now, I'm currently running on a Spartan cab. I've been curious about how custom you can get a commercial cab, since ALF was the first I had seen to offer something off the shelf that was more than a typical engine, but less than a full blown one off specialized design. I feel that to continuosly question why my department made our preference down to the inches of a design and making comparisions without knowing its coverage goes nowhere, considering I've already explained in detail the area that the truck makes its respnoses in and the training and experience that it's drivers have from their other walk in life.

[pauloghia 5]

I need to make a correction to my last post. The first sentence was supposed to read that width isn't an issue.